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there are (remoaner) studies looking at how other G20 nations trade with the EU
This shows how wrong the Brexiteers are when they say that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal we would trade on the same terms as other major trading nations. They are wrong. The EU does not trade with any member of the G20 without some sort of preferential trade arrangement in place. If the UK were to leave the EU without a deal in place at all we would be in an extreme position that no other major trading nation has voluntarily adopted.
Now I could be wrong on this, but was Davis explaining today than allowing parliament meaning votes was an affront to democracy?
He was wasn't he?
I'm off to read some more Orwell.
Many Africa countries argue that one of the biggest factors holding back their development is the protection tariffs trading blocks like the EU put in place.
Hey Mefty, soon we'll be able to argue the same thing. Yea Brexit. 😀
It's simply not true tha we don't know wha the benefits if memberhsip have been: trade has increased significantly with bith the EU and non-EU thanks to our ability to negotiate effective trade deals, investment has increased, we have benefited from FoM etc. plenty of quantified analysis of the positive impact in terms of %GDP all of which showed that our cost of memberhsip if <1% of GDP was a steal.
Does that suggest an increase in GDP of >1% makes EU membership worthwhile? What has been the actual increase due to membership?
There's not enough Liam Fox on TV, Johnson gets all the credit but Fox really is a class A clown.
The Brexies , just can't stop lying, taking a leaf out of Trumps book and just claim that the press make it up
https://mobile.twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/840951403493359618/video/1
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SOM, there is quite a range in estimates as its a difficult thing to forecast/estimate with precision. But the benefits have been large across many areas and the cost relatively small. It's been a very good deal. Brexshiteers have to use pretend arguments eg, we run a trade deficit therefore its bad to cover up the real story
While she pointed at the screen did she not tell him it was there under the 'give him the rope' theory?
@ Liam Fox. I beg to differ.
EU thanks to our ability to negotiate effective trade deals,
Have you seen the list of trade deals the EU has "neogtitated" over past 10 years ? Its a total joke. It's a protectionist group based on membership expansion and closer integration to create a super state.
Kimbers that piece is assuming all co-operation just stops. That a ridiculous assumption. When it comes to science and acamdemic excellent I'll take the US and UK over Europe all day long.
All the supposed trade benefits of the EU could have been achieved with a trade on Economic Community. All the political paraphernalia is unecessary. The trade side was used as a stick to beat countries along the path to the superstate.
Kimbers that piece is assuming all co-operation just stops. That a ridiculous assumption.
Oh I assume the details are in the back up plan.... 😉
Jamba - you said
Kimbers that piece is assuming all co-operation just stops. That a ridiculous assumption.
May I refer you to Jamba's comment
It's a protectionist group based on membership expansion and closer integration to create a super state.
Sorry to point that out to you quite so brutally.
. It's a protectionist group based on membership expansion and closer integration to create a super state.
But haven't you also been pointing out that many EU members are now dissatisfied with this idea?
You seem to think the EU and its members are different bodies?
You seem to think the EU and its members are different bodies?
Well they are, the EU Commission is separate from the Council of Ministers and as there is qualified majority voting over a number of issues, stuff can be implemented that you object to.
Not sure it's the imperial control structure you suggest though. If all the member states wanted something, I doubt the commission would overrule them. Aren't the commissioners nominated by their member states anyway?
The Commission is the executive, it is the only body with legislative initiative.
Well that's turned the pressure up another notch. Sturgeon announces Indy2 shortly before MPs vote on the Brexy amendments.
May not do anything but she chooses her times interestingly.
Obvious statement timing for Sturgeon. Attempt to frustrate A50. She is very well aware the chances of an Indy Yes vote in the event the UK is outside the EU is close to zero. She has no choice.
May will just call her bluff. Sturgeon and the SNP make a lot of noise but on this issue she has no real power.
Protectionist joke? We have trade deals with 90% of all the countries we trade with, many negotiated as a member of the EU. We can and do already trade with RoW.
The EU continues to be a major trading partner for the UK. All we are doing isnto make that more expansive and more challenging and trade with RoW more difficult at least in the short term.
Sort sighted nonsense
Look at the example of Coffee. Raw beans are ultra low tariff whilst roasted coffee has high tariffs. This allows German companies to import beans cheaply from Africa and sell premium roasted coffee tariff free to rest of the EU.
Scottish Ref could play out very negatively for Remainers/pro EUers. Best way to ensure a "No" in Scotland is for UK to have WTO only tariff deal with the EU. This puts an Indy Scotland in a dire position with 80% of its exports subject to tariffs. I can't see how the SNP could win such a Referendum. Any trade deal the UK agrees with the EU the SNP will complain about so whatever the UK does there makes no difference. No incentive to accommodate Scotland at all.
This allows German companies to import beans cheaply from Africa and sell premium roasted coffee tariff free to rest of the EU.
Except roasted beans don't travel well. But anyway - let's have some more examples, one isn't enough.
Look at the example of Coffee. Raw beans are ultra low tariff whilst roasted coffee has high tariffs. This allows German companies to import beans cheaply from Africa and sell premium roasted coffee tariff free to rest of the EU.
Or it allows Kraft to employ lots of people in Banbury in the UK producing coffee which can then be exported throughout Europe cheaply.
Look at the example of Coffee. Raw beans are ultra low tariff whilst roasted coffee has high tariffs. This allows German companies to import beans cheaply from Africa and sell premium roasted coffee tariff free to rest of the EU.
What's your point caller? Any country in the eu could do that
The EU also stuck a tariff on Chinese steel. @Jambalaya is that a bad thing or not?
The EU also stuck a tariff on Chinese steel. @Jambalaya is that a bad thing or not?
According to the Tory party it is a bad thing, it is why they were happy to see Tata goto the wall rather than support those anti dumping tariffs.
It is good thing for Steel producers, who are competing against Chinese Steel, and their support industry, it is a bad thing for consumers, users and manufacturers who use it.
Look at the example of Coffee. Raw beans are ultra low tariff whilst roasted coffee has high tariffs. This allows German companies to import beans cheaply from Africa and sell premium roasted coffee tariff free to rest of the EU.
Is it only German companies who can take advantage of this spiffing wheeze, or can anyone in the EU do it?
it amuses me that despite all the 'hur hur hur' about the people rising up and taking control, delivering results that no-one could have predicted Jambalaya, you seem unwilling to entertain the idea that scotland could turn around and do just that.
i'd hate to see it, but i couldn't blame them, but just as all the arguments for leaving the EU were emotive bollocks, they've been shown to work, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they worked for scotland too.
there's f-all logic involved in either of these movements.
There really is no end to the delusional nonsense that the 'have cake, eat it' brigade will swallow, in their quest to continue their denial of reality
Del +1
(Or +350m if you prefer 😉 )
Given:
1. The succes of BS gesture politics
2. The success of narrow-minded, isolationist, insular thinking
3. The success of blaming others for causing your own problems
The Nats have a much better chance of following the Brexshiteers. If ever there was a moment in time for BS and narrow-mindeness to win it is now
The Nats have a much better chance of following the Brexshiteers. If ever there was a moment in time for BS and narrow-mindeness to win it is now
But they are less prone to BS and narrow-mindedness - look at the Brexit vote in Scotland.
What is clear is that England and Wales are all for the BS and narrow-mindedness so understandable if the Scottish wanted to remove themselves from that.
If I lived in Scotland I would be voting to leave the UK - the UK is an even more selfish and racist country than I previously thought.
Not sure if disliking a racist/narrow minded nation makes me racist/narrow minded, bit of a quandary there...
Oldish link, wondering what opinion is like now, and how brexshit is going to colour the debate?
TMH feast your eyes on the list of heavy weight trade deals signed by the mighty European Union
That list omits the deals we have with Germany, France, Italy... It also omits the agreement with Canada etc.
So we loose those 70 odd + the other 27 we have because of the EU.
What percentage of our trade does that account for?
SOM, there is quite a range in estimates as its a difficult thing to forecast/estimate with precision. But the benefits have been large across many areas and the cost relatively small. It's been a very good deal.
It's a shame the remain campaign were not able to quantify the costs/benefits.
They did but people don't like listening to experts, they prefer BS and blaming foreigners
@Del I have posted numerous times including before the last "once in a lifetime" Referendum that it is up to the Scots to decide. They did decide No 55.3 vs 44.7. Thr argument for an Independent Scotland are even weaker today than before especially regarding the EU membership question. What is equally valid is that it's nonsensical to have repeated "do overs" everytime the SNP can think up an excuse.
@igm Academic co-operation goes on independently of the EU. Our Universities cooperate globally. What we do have with the EU is them giving us some of our own money back by way of grants/projects.
@mrmo the Cananda deal is mentioned in the text, it wasn't ratfied at the time of the report.
Nothing with US, China, Japan and India despite the "negotiating strength" of the - never mind the quaity feel the width - that is the 500m people of the EU.
The EU's trade deals are dominated by those signed with small countries
They did but people don't like listening to experts, they prefer BS and blaming foreigners
I don't think they did, certainly not in an obvious way - like coming up with a slogan "Britain will be £xxxm a week poorer outside the EU" and sticking it on the side of a bus.
Not well enough clearly - we let a very, very weak argument win. It's shameful in both ways.
So A50 not going to be triggered this week as the Brexies wanted.
Rumours of David Davis's unpreparedness not so exaggerated after all?
He also just complained that the (jingoistic) rhetoric being used by some Tory MPs was making things harder in Europe
Jamba - I think the problem with your analysis is that it's stuck in the past. A simple example to take, you have stated a few times that universities have always collaborated, and indeed they have (my father was a chaired professor hence why we found ourselves at school in a US university for a year as kids), but that belongs to the past.
Now that we have stuck two fingers in the Europeans eyes, and the US is becoming a touch isolationist, (and we've been rude to the Chinese and Indians), that is not a clear future. Actually the US has other problems as the institutions out there are nervous that government funding of research is going to be heavily cut - private funding will continue but that will be biased towards short term returns.
The world is changing and you need not to evaluate it in the terms of the past.
He also just complained that the (jingoistic) rhetoric being used by some Tory MPs was making things harder in Europe
Ha, ha, ha. Mr Kettle, Mr Pot would like to inform you of your colour.
I've changed my mind
Can we stay in, please, just so we can Veto Scotland joining 😀
Still a fool then ninfan?
Academic co-operation goes on independently of the EU
Yes, but is cooperation better or worse inside the EU?
They give us more than just money. They let us in on all their projects.
Can we stay in, please, just so we can Veto Scotland joining
It looks like you might have just realised, that if you're not in it, you don't get a say.
Academic co-operation goes on independently of the EU. Our Universities cooperate globally. What we do have with the EU is them giving us some of our own money back by way of grants/projects.
With respect Jamba, speaking as someone who has to navigate these collaborative efforts every day, you are talking out of your arse.
Collaboration within the EU is infinitely easier than any collaboration outside the EU. And those involved have tried to explain time and again why your overly simplistic and dogmatic thinking fails to grasp the point on why EU funding is so much better than what uk Govt provides so I'm not going to rehash the arguments. You were wrong the first time you trotted this out, you are wrong now and were wrong at every point in between.
why no A50 this week ?
Can we stay in, please, just so we can Veto Scotland joining
Ha ha brilliant !
Fourbanger we are all very much aware, we voted for exactly that.
@chris explanations I have heard from tv
Dutch election Wednesday, don't want to interfere / take headlines / encourage Wilders supporters
Week after 60th Treaty of Rome anniversary jamboree (wake 😉 ) don't want to upstage
EU meeting scheduled for April 6 so a week prior and as per May's end of March schedule ?
Kimbers two different things. EU workers will have their rights (well some rights) guaranteed as an early part of the negotiations as per May's statements. I have little doubt the EU academics on existing contracts will be allowed to stay till the end of those contracts. 3 millions EU citizens most working in the UK, 1 million UK citizens in Europe split between those working and those retired.
igm was speaking more about funding and co-operation.
igm Trump will be very open with the UK, two wealthy countries / equals. Ditto Canada. His issues are with asymmetric relationships like US / Mexico..
Trump is cutting back on supporting academic research.
Trump will however cooperate with the UK provided it is clearly to his advantage. That's how bullies operate.
I have little doubt the EU academics on existing contracts will be allowed to stay till the end of those contracts.
I have to say I'm amazed how one sentence can contain so much ignorance about research contracts, academic careers, funding cycles, job security, the UK research environment, contribution of overseas researchers to UK science, etc.
I accept that wilful ignorance and a desire to make sweeping statements without bothering to examine the issues at hand seems to be in vogue these days but, seriously, those who work in the research sector look at these kinds of comments and just have to wonder exactly what planet the commentator is on (leaving aside the startling lack of compassion and humanity for those actively contributing to the UK).
I don't comment on particle physics, cake baking or financial trading because I know almost nothing about them and don't want to look stupid by putting my simplistic and probably wrong opinion out there. I know my contribution on these topics will be worthless at best and may actually cause problems by misinformation as people who can't fully assess me or the context of my comments assume that because I am prepared to say something it warrants equal merit as someone who does know what they are talking about.
I suggest you give this concept some thought.
Well after this week there will be little reason for the 48 to cooperate with the Brexies I guess.
Time to let them have it both barrels for damaging our country.
I have to say I'm amazed how one sentence can contain so much ignorance about research contracts, academic careers, funding cycles, job security, the UK research environment, contribution of overseas researchers to UK science, etc.
Its a talent jamba seems to have !
EU researchers are already leaving
But it will be red white and blue! We'll all have artisanal jam for tea!
Trump will however cooperate with the UK provided it is clearly to his advantage. That's how bullies operate.
Trump as the president of the US will i hope do what is in the best interests of the US, i fear he will do what is in his best interests.
Thing is that neither the US's or Trumps interests are the same as the UK's
But at least we will have a new royal yacht!
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-royal-yacht_uk_58c6fd24e4b081a56dee990b
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can anyone explain why are leaders are taking the country off a cliff edge? You don't have to be an expert to see what a monumental fur cup this is going to be. Surely they have something up the sleeve???
Can anyone explain why are leaders are taking the country off a cliff edge? You don't have to be an expert to see what a monumental fucckup this is going to be. Surely they have something up the sleeve???
If your rich change brings opportunities. The tories are wetting themselves at the prospect of getting rid of all the red tape (workers rights, NHS, etc).
Can anyone explain why are leaders are taking the country off a cliff edge? You don't have to be an expert to see what a monumental fucckup this is going to be. Surely they have something up the sleeve???
Because TM and her brexiteers are playing politics, will be quite comfortable whatever happens, will likely financially benefit directly or indirectly, and are more interested in making sure that they "win" in parliament rather than repair the country a make it a better place. They don't live in the real world and nor will they ever have to.
Never let a crisis go to waste.
Lords have passed bill without amendment, Article 50 is go - cue Thunderbirds theme
They don't live in the real world and nor will they ever have to.
To be fair not many academics do either.
mefty - Member
Lords have passed bill without amendment, Article 50 is go - cue[s] Thunderbirds[/s] Benny Hill theme
They don't live in the real world and nor will they ever have to.To be fair not many academics do either.
A cheap and factually incorrect jibe. The real world is just a place where you aim to work for a living, get paid appropriately for doing so and pay taxes commensurate with your earnings. Academics are just as much a part of that as anyone else on here.
Not to do a fact check but....
jambalaya - Member
Kimbers two different things. EU workers will have their rights (well some rights) guaranteed as an early part of the negotiations as per May's statements.
- Overreach and not gaurnteed at all. What gaurntee will they get in the end who knows - and some rights sounds a lot like much fewer rights than current situation so it's hard to know what the legal status of many will be.
I have little doubt the EU academics on existing contracts will be allowed to stay till the end of those contracts.
Unless you work for the government in the home office your confidence is in your guesswork not fact, would you apply and move for a position that could be terminated at any time - would anyone want to employ somebody for a long term project knowing they may not have the right to remain - why not move the research job to the Eu and have ZERO uncertainty.
3 millions EU citizens most working in the UK, 1 million UK citizens in Europe split between those working and those retired.
3 Million contribute where 1 Million are a drain? It just means that now there are 4 millions bargaining chips on the table.
The real world is just a place where you aim to work for a living, get paid appropriately for doing so
As an academic I'd be delighted to be payed appropriately ! 😉
It was quite a patronising comment, but ever since the referendum the right have reveled in dismissing 'experts'
A cheap and factually incorrect jibe.
Maybe but no worse than yours about politicians, or do you have some superior entitlement to make such comments?
Apparently lots of politicians are not real people, the colour of their rosettes is the tell tale sign
Good that's bill passed. No lets have a quick bilateral agreement on citizens rights. The sensible way to do things.
Apparently lots of politicians are real people, the colour of their rosettes is the tell tale sign
Explain please? Can't work out if you are being serious or trolling someone..... 😳
Goog, that bill passed. No lets have a quick bilateral agreement on citizens rights. The sensible way to do things.
Sensible would've been TM making a pledge to honour EU citizens rights as a goodwill gesture, then there'd have been no fuss in the Lords.
Sadly Brexishambles will be a drawn out affair as May plays to her own Tory swivel eyed europhobes as well as negotiating with the EU,
a situation that has already given Sturgeon the excuse she was looking for.
Maybe but no worse than yours about politicians, or do you have some superior entitlement to make such comments?
No, but the behaviour, personal situations and income streams of TM and her brexit buddies are by and large matters of public record. And I didn't say ALL politicians did I, just TM and the brexiteers.
Ah its only the Brexiteers because no one could have a different view to you without being in its for themselves, do you wear a hair shirt to ensure purity?
No, I didn't say or imply that at all. TM and the brexiteers (DD, LF and BJ) will not suffer personally as a result of whatever they do. They haven't shown evidence of being good, moral even well informed human beings so why but should I trust in them to deliver for the country? The rest of us could suffer greatly as a result of their actions. That is my point.
mefty - Member
Ah its only the Brexiteers because no one could have a different view to you without being in its for themselves,
If you read his post hes suggesting why they are pursuing such harmful & divisive policies, based on the comments on here, it certainly isn't doing much to heal the mood-
Snarky comments abound...
do you wear a hair shirt to ensure purity?
will likely financially benefit directly or indirectly,
You said they would benefit so I think you will find that is explicit. Different people have different views, they are doing what they think is right for the country, you just don't agree. No one has a clue who is right and nor will we for years.
"will likely financially benefit directly or indirectly" is demonstrably not the same as "would benefit". It isn't even a semantic argument.
I don't believe that they are actively trying to enrich themselves through Brexit and never stated as such. I do believe that they potentially stand to gain from their actions (directly or indirectly) and have very little to lose through them financially. The worst that they will achieve is no net change in their personal circumstances. They have nothing invested in Brexit working beyond the politics of the situation and haven't thus far shown themselves to be people interested in delivering Brexit solutions that actually benefit all of our society or reduce the potential impact of their decisions on us rather than just outwardly pandering to the hard red, white and blue Brexit faithful and getting cheap shots in at a dangerously ineffective and confused opposition.
You are entitled to disagree, but please, don't put words in my mouth and then rail against me for saying them.
They have nothing invested in Brexit working beyond the politics of the situation and haven't thus far shown themselves to be people interested in delivering Brexit solutions that actually benefit all of our society or reduce the potential impact of their decisions on us rather than just outwardly pandering to the hard red, white and blue Brexit faithful and getting cheap shots in at a dangerously ineffective and confused opposition.
Maybe you should actually read some speeches and proceedings in parliament, rather than just soundbites, before repeating lazy political slogans. May has been quite clear, she is following the result of the referendum whilst trying to preserve a sensible and productive trading relationship for both parties. It is some of the European leaders who are talking about the need for "punishment"