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@thm.. Argument run out of steam?
No ones is debating whether Scotland could look after itself, it's what is in the best interests of her people. Anyway there is a thread for that....
Edit for edit: The pack of lies that were dressed up as an argument (sic) ran out of steam in '14, hence the extra exaggerated BS the is now required to resurrect them and the narcissists dreams now. #SDBMB
More tripeRead page 16 of this slide pack - BBC 1 has nearly 5 times the reach of the Daily Mail and Mail Online.
An offcom report whose main source for the report is based on polling 2921 people. Great.
teamhurtmore - Member
No ones is debating whether Scotland could look after itself, it's what is in the best interests of her people.
One and the same thing.
An offcom report whose main source for the report is based on polling 2921 people. Great.
Sampling error of less than 2%
One and the same thing
Wow - on that same logic (sic) the fact the the UK will be able to look after itself post Brexshit means that this is the best interests of our people.
That's an argument that I will have to park for a bit......actually a very long time.
Just when you think arguments cannot get more bizarre/convoluted/abstracted from reality, along come the twisted yS variations to prove you haven't seen anything yet......
Still obsessed with Scotland, THM? What's the problem - did Nanny make you wear a kilt, or something?
Great post Dr - a big improvement on your normal [s]gu[/s]stuff
brooess - Member
Where did you hear that?
Contact with the local branch (and awareness of a couple of the other branches nearby).
They seem to have been spending time getting themselves organised.
Round here where we have a Brexy MP in a remain constituency they're going for silent vigils outside his surgeries and I've heard putting EU flags on every roundabout - watch out Milton Keynes.
It may of course fizzle out - but I'm not convinced. As Chewkw says he was personally campaigning against the EU for 43 years (before it was created in fact)
Ooooh igm I'm an mker. Where do I sign up?
You can't afford a flag for every roundabout.
[i]TBF, so should I. I had no idea about the Northern Ireland thing or the Scottish Thing, or the £60bn bill, or the Article 50 process etc etc. Funnily enough, no-one felt it necessary to tell us what it was all about, hence a bunch of people have voted against their own best interests without knowing they were doing it at the time. [/I]
But this is the bit that does my head in, how could anyone who's lived in the UK for even a short period NOT realise that there'd be an issue in Northern Ireland if we left the EU.
Except that is the chap at my last place of work, he still thought that Southern Ireland (and I use his description) was a part of the UK..., yep he voted Leave too on account of all the foreigners coming here and taking our jobs. Please note, I live in rural Scotland where even the local Indian employs (white) Scots as waiters.
So you did just vote without understanding the implications, of either side.
[I]It is complicated brooess, very true, especially now as people who claim to want independence are now seeking to surrender monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to Frankfurt. Under mols defintion they should all be disqualified from voting for not understand the basics of the issues at hand. [/I]
As opposed to going cap in hand to anyone who'll have (exploit) us, as the UK will?
Maybe we just don't want to be controlled by the Tories in Westminster, have you ever thought of that?
Not as opposed to that at all.
BTW have you met Wolfgang Schauble? Be careful what you wish for. Giving up high levels of devolved power in favour of his (among others) patronage would be very, very odd indeed
Still it's an odd world
From my point of view it's in the best interest of the people of Scotland that they should decide who governs Scotland.
Newsnight on changing views in Holland. Only available on FB, no direct video link on their YT channel. Ignore a small problem and it becomes a medium sized one. Ignore a medium sized problem and it becomes a large problem soneone else sorts out.
From my point of view it's in the best interest of the people of Scotland that they should decide who governs Scotland.
Yup the Government agreed that in 2013 (?) so you had a two year campaign and a legally binding Referendum. You decided.
@b r why not ask the Greeks how they feel about being governed by the EU ?
@b r why not ask the Greeks how they feel about being governed by the EU ?
Surely better to ask them how they feel about paying extortionate interest levels to private banks which are preventing them from digging themselves out of the hole they are in?
Captain the Greeks aren't paying any interest to banks, the eurozone took over the debt and gave them a close to zero interest rate and then refunded them the notional "profits" from the loans. They did this after private lenders like banks decided Greece had borrowed far too much (and lied aout amounts borrowed) and could not pay, ever. Private lenders are not interested in lending to Greece at any level (certainly my view as I have declined every Greek related transaction I have been shown inc those with supposedly solid collateral, there quite simply is no rate I would lend to Greece). I remember a meeting 2 years ago where Greek officials where trying to get my employer to lend / invest more on the basis of their (fantasticaly) positive outlook. My colleagues made it clear we where only looking to exit, there was no rate or terms which would encourage to even maintain our level of investment.
With oil at $50 Scotland's budget deficit is higher than Greece's
Brooes if Scotland leaves the UK the country will still be called the UK and the blue bits wil still be on the flag. No one in the rest of the world will really give a toss.
Captain the Greeks aren't paying any interest to banks, the eurozone took over the debt and gave them a close to zero interest rate and then refunded them the notional "profits" from the loans. They did this after private lenders like banks decided Greece had borrowed far too much (and lied aout amounts borrowed) and could not pay, ever. Private lenders are not interested in lending to Greece at any level ([b]certainly my view as I have declined every Greek related transaction I have been shown inc those with supposedly solid collateral, there quite simply is no rate I would lend to Greece). I remember a meeting 2 yeats ago where Greek officials where trtuing to get my employer to lend / invest more on the basis of their (fantastical) positive outlook.[/b] Yncolleagues made it clear we where only looking to exit, there was no rate or terms which would encourage to even maintain oir level of investment.
As soon as you move into first person experience, for some reason, I switch off as the bullcrapometer spikes. Don´t know why...
[i]@b r why not ask the Greeks how they feel about being governed by the EU ? [/I]
Funny that, we had a week in Athens during the summer (fantastic hotel, great people, excellent food). The average Greek doesn't really care who's in charge, much like any other country. They just want to get on with their life.
And tbh saw no trouble at all, even though our hotel overlooked the parliament building and is one of the landmark hotels - plus no heavy security nor police.
Surely better to ask them how they feel about paying extortionate interest levels to private banks which are preventing them from digging themselves out of the hole they are in?
Groundhog Day - as Jamba says - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33311535/greek-money-crisis-who-does-greece-owe-money-to ]lending is dominated[/url] by supranationals and countries - as you have been told again and again, but still you come up with this bollocks. No wonder you never learn anything.
Blimey @Captain you've even upset @mefty. You are free to ignore what I have to say, however I am basically in the investment / lending business. There is no rate I would lend to Greece, in part actually as folk like yourself think lenders would be "ripping off" Greece. It's not worth the bother or the risk of lending to them. As I posted before I was on SCB's project team to contingency plan for a Greek default / euro exit. Having such a plan was (is still I imagine) a UK regulatory requirement.
Sarkozy at least had the humility to admit Greece should never have been allowed into the euro. Inside the euro they had access to an low interest rate that their economic strength / budget management never warranted and when you give a (debt) junky an almost unlimited supply to their drug of choice its only going to end one way. The EU bear responsibility for allowing this to happen and for turning a blind eye.
Yet more mud slinging jamba, it's simply not true to claim that EU legislation involves a loss of sovereignty for any member state, but a pooling of sovereignty
[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_Europe ]pooling and sharing [/url]
From my point of view it's in the best interest of the people of Scotland that they should decide who governs Scotland.Yup the Government agreed that in 2013 (?) so you had a two year campaign and a legally binding Referendum. You decided.
Safe to say that things have materially changed since the better together campaign made their "promises". So yes, it was decided then. Who is to say that some haven't changed their mind, particularly as the national outlooks on the world between Scotland and England/Wales has been shown to be very different?
I personally am in favour of the union remaining intact but I find it rather hypocritical to have a referendum on the EU that the government now interpret as a mandate to do what Scotland was promised wouldn't happen after IndyrefI and then deny Scotland the right to have their say on whether they are happy with that.
[quote=jambalaya ]
With oil at $50 Scotland's budget deficit is higher than Greece's
JAMBAFACT ALERT
http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-trivial-omission/#more-92276
Shackleton, you had two years to discuss this scenario, despite 600+ pages the SNP failed to effectively cover this issue nor the currency one.
Indyref Yes = definitely leaving the EU
Indyref No = staying in the EU whilst UK does
As such No was the best option for remaining in the EU
Yes means re-applying as does Brexit and then Independence. Whatever horsesh.t Salmond/SNP spouted there was no transition option then nor a '"sucessor state" now.
The SNP well knew that a Brexit vote would make Independence much less likely. Hence the result breakdown up North.
Boarding Bob that nonsense link is still bleating about about Scotland not taking any national debt share, if that's the case we will take back all the hospital, military and police equipment etc thats been bought with it.
[quote=jambalaya ]Boarding Bob that nonsense link is still bleating about about Scotland not taking any national debt share, if that's the case we will take back all the hospital, military and police equipment etc thats been bought with it.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/packing-scotlands-trunk/
Tenuous Brexit link.
Good to see that brexiters are not all poor ill-educated old northerns - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39197756 ]there are some middle aged posh ones too[/url]
Few people I have had the misfortune to meet have left my teeth itching quite as much as [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodri_Philipps,_4th_Viscount_St_Davids ]the good Viscount [/url] [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8895016/Viscountess-St-Davids-taken-to-court-over-debts.html ]and his wife[/url]
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Please can we have PSAs before quoting WoS - senses need to be forewarned - plus there is an Indy5 thread we can use
At least we now know what Brexit is for. The money being saved (NHS £350m) is to be used to revive the Grammar schools (same amount supposedly being put aside in the budget next week). 😀
Not per week @eden, its a one off (afaik)
Another meangless Lords amendment.
Not seen much coverage from the Versailles EU shindig for their 60th
That'll be all of the 350 million spent on grammar schools under Westminster jurisdiction will it ?
Actually the stuff coming out of the Europe is VERY interesting - L'Europe a plusieurs vitesses is back on le menu. Just who will we be negotiating with at the end of the two years?
[Ironic that it is Hollande (remember him) bringing this up despite the obvious fact that France would probably only qualify for the second division at this rate!]
Just goes to show what a total waste of time voting on something that cannot exist in its current form was. TOTAL MADNESS?
Lord Lawson view (and Sky reporting) that UK/EU won't reach an agreement in 2 years (not least as delay favours the EU) and that preparing for and assuming WTO should be our expectation. Whatever your view on that it certainly makes sense from a negotiating stance for the EU to believe that's the case.
The two speed thing is not new though and its highly controvesial with the newer members so imho won't happen. Also Italy and France listed as supporters but both countires are very likely to see a significant change of leadership soon.
No it's doesn't as both sides lose out badly in that case. Is in no ones interests to fall back in WTO that's the LOSE:LOSE option
It's not new, correct, but it's even more relevant than ever.
Shackleton, you had two years to discuss this scenario.
Did I? Despite being English?
And you are missing the point. Just because you don't agree with it or think it was be a good move for scotland (I don't think it is a great idea either) doesn't mean that they shouldn't be asked given the premise and outcome of both referendums.
From the CER.
ambalaya - MemberNot per week @eden, its a one off (afaik)
Falls off chair as Jamba appears to be correct. The ridiculous thing is that £350m is being spread over 140 schools. That is very few new builds and a lot that'll just be receiving a lick of paint.
[I]Boarding Bob that nonsense link is still bleating about about Scotland not taking any national debt share, if that's the case we will take back all the hospital, military and police equipment etc thats been bought with it. [/I]
Hmm, didn't I see you post a thought that the UK could just leave the EU without settling up its debts, yet it seems you don't think Scotland can do the same? 😉
Shackleton understood re English vs Scottish had made an assumption. My point is that the Brexit result was not new information, it was a scneario. Maybe one people thought unlikely but it was foreseeable.
Nipper, read the summary. Its all fairly pro-EU as I'd expect. This quote made me laugh, Junker et all should take note. The UK politicians have been pretty restrained with thenexcpetion of Farage but he has every right given how he has been ridiculed for a very long time.
Grandstanding and smugness will erode goodwill towards the UK.
@br Chapeau but ... the EU doesn't issue debt and we are not in the euro. Re EU assets we amusingly seem to be in a quite a strong position. The more I think about it the more the EU have screwed up, A50 was only introduced in the Lisbon Treaty as leaving had never been thought of before. They really should have laid out how liabilities like pensions, nuclear power station decomissioning etc would be dealt with.
[I]The more I think about it the more the EU have screwed up, A50 was only introduced in the Lisbon Treaty as leaving had never been thought of before. They really should have laid out how liabilities like pensions, nuclear power station decomissioning etc would be dealt with. [/I]
When you married the current Mrs Jamba did you set out the divorce settlement, just in case?
Thats a good point ....
Actually as a matter of fact yes, that's standard practice in French law. You chose one of 3 (or 4) standard options or you can have a legally binding pre-nup.
The EU isn't a marriage, it was supposed to be an Economic Communty. As such setting out economic terms in the event of exit would seem blindingly obvious to me. However they are too arrogant to have even admitted it was possible and even then A50 was a token gesture.
About the CER.
The Centre for European Reform is a think-tank devoted to making the European Union work better and strengthening its role in the world. The CER is pro-European but not uncritical. We regard European integration as largely beneficial but recognise that in many respects the Union does not work well. We also think that the EU should take on more responsibilities globally, on issues ranging from climate change to security. The CER aims to promote an open, outward-looking and effective European Union.
I'm going for a bike ride. Anyone else?
So, Tarzan gets the sack.
[I]I'm going for a bike ride. Anyone else? [/I]
I'd just got in from a night ride, blowing a hoolie on top 😉
What's. "blowing a hoolie" b r.?
Windy
slowoldman - Member
So, Tarzan gets the sack.
crazy old git, fair play to him!
just for hezza https://theconversation.com/in-defence-of-the-grey-squirrel-britains-most-unpopular-invader-73983
I see we are in for another punishment budget 🙁
S****s
Like something from Yes Prime Minister
Lord Heseltine told the BBC the prime minister was "exercising her perfectly legitimate right to get rid of opposition in any way she finds appropriate. Whether it's a wise thing to do is a matter for her not for me,"
The safest bet withe budget is that it will be uneventful. Take away with one hand, give with another.
Always amazed that it gets so much coverage
NW - Hezza is no fool.. He knew what he was doing and the consequences.
[i]What's. "blowing a hoolie" b r.? [/I]
Windy, but from every direction 🙂
On top of here:
Hezza is no fool.. He knew what he was doing and the consequences.
They weren't the consequences, they were the objective...
May now looks like she's scared of opposition and she looks like an autocratic dictator. It also frees up Heseltine to join Major in a stronger fight back now he's no longer required to keep his mouth shut.
The Brexit camp generally now have to argue that even though their objective in leaving the EU is to 'take back control' and make Parliament sovereign, that in actual fact they don't want to make Parliament sovereign after all..
The Lords have quite deliberately put them in this position IMO...
The most recommended comment on the Guardian’s story on Heseltine’s sacking says it all...
“27 other EU parliaments can veto the deal........
except the sovereign UK parliament.
Taking back control.”
It's pitiful watching a small number of lunatics getting manoeuvred into a corner like this. it would be hilarious (like a cross between Monty Python and Yes Minister) if it wasn't having such a negative impact on our economy and international political standing and those of us down on the ground trying to survive in difficult times...
“27 other EU parliaments can veto the deal........
except the sovereign UK parliament.Taking back control.”
😀
Hezza and Major have been wrong on Europe for a long time - better to put them both on the same "no longer required" shelf.
i see that another tory manifesto pledge has been scrapped
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27 other EU parliaments can veto the deal........
except the sovereign UK parliament.
Meaning the Brexit deal?
Kimbers that's for those in regular employment. The self employed use various methods to swerve NI. Has to end.
Kimbers that's for those in regular employment. The self employed use various methods to swerve NI. Has to end.
Indeed, bastard Tories, cracking down on tax avoidance
i see that another tory manifesto pledge has been scrapped
The self employed use various methods to swerve NI. Has to end.
Not commenting on whether it's a good or bad thing; just on the fact that they said (yes, said; not 'were calling for' or 'inferred' or.....) they wouldn't and now have.
Or are you saying that as time passes then we might need to go back on previous commitments when it turns out that situation isn't panning out exactly as imagined. And that to press ahead with a prior commitment just because it seemed correct at the time is more important than making the right decision?
(in Trumpland, they could spin this that in fact NI has been reduced, just by a negative number. Fooled us again!)
Jamba
Lots of local built trails run off from there, no wonder I've managed +60,000 feet so far this year. Come on up to the Tweed Valley and I'll take you down all the trails you've heard and read about while you regal me with stories about how Brexit will be ace 🙂
[I]Kimbers that's for those in regular employment. The self employed use various methods to swerve NI. Has to end. [/I]
No, lets be clear we (whether fully self-employed or business owners) follow the rules set up by parliament and managed by HMRC. I'm sure you also take advantage of any rule that 'profits' you too, like ISA's, or higher-rate tax credits when putting money into pensions.
Indeed, bastard Tories, cracking down on tax avoidance
Indeed, bastard Tories attacking ordinary people.
Hezza and Major have been wrong on Europe for a long time - better to put them both on the same "no longer required" shelf.
Silly, silly boy.
looking positive....
So it was all about the fishing quotas
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@kimbers 🙂
Would love to b r, I can even wear my Vote Leave T-Shirt for extra laughs 😉 I'll have to get a lot fitter first 😳
Teresa May up there swallowing the entire post Brexit fish quota in one gulp.
From the FT, AIG are setting up shop in Luxembourg to avoid brexit fallout.
add on the 20% VAT charge on roaming announced yesterday, the potential for airline regulation chaos, the good news keeps on flowing.
post Brexit fish quota
There won't be a quota. British fishermen didn't vote out to end up with more quotas! They want to be able to catch whatever they want, sod the consequences.
The self employed use various methods to swerve NI. Has to end.
How? I was self-employed for many years before creating a company.
If you become part of a company you can avoid a little N.I through dividends. But you do pay tax on your dividends and 20% corp tax.
That is not the same as being self-employed though.
They want to be able to catch whatever they want, sod the consequences.
There was an article in the Telegraph about how Brexit will increase the rate of marriages and decrease the rate of divorces because of (I had to put some Elgar on at this point) the upswelling of national confidence. You know, with all those young people, the ones who get married most, being so enthusiastic about Brexit and all.
So probably our good old British fish will also feel suddenly enthused about not being under the thumb of that wicked European dictatorship and will start gaining in numbers rapidly. If only people would stop talking our British fishes down, that is.
[quote=molgrips ]post Brexit fish quota
There won't be a quota. British fishermen didn't vote out to end up with more quotas! They want to be able to catch whatever they want, sod the consequences.
A similar reasoning behind why so many farmers voted out.
What they failed to consider is that the fishing and farming lobby in the UK is far far weaker than the urbanocentric conservation lobby. If they thought quotas and environmental rules and regs coming out of the EU, tempered as they were by an overall very strong EU-wide farm lobby, then what we will see post Brexit will make them look like a free-for-all in comparison.
[quote=phiiiiil ]
There was an article in the Telegraph about how Brexit will increase the rate of marriages and decrease the rate of divorces because of (I had to put some Elgar on at this point) the upswelling of national confidence. You know, with all those young people, the ones who get married most, being so enthusiastic about Brexit and all.
.........
I am marrying my German partner of 25 years, though the reasoning is somewhat different to the one you have outlined 😉
Not sure I follow WF. You're saying we're likely to get more farming and fishing regulation post Brexit? You think this will be a bad thing I presume?