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True, I did read that. 2019.
Oh, and Nissan up in the air again...
Nissan senior vice-president Colin Lawther:
The decision to expand in Sunderland was based on “a set of circumstances” at that point in time, he said.
“As those circumstances change, and we wouldn't wait until the end of the process..."
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-nissan-uk-business-jobs-7000-employees-car-plant-sunderland-a7603721.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-nissan-uk-business-jobs-7000-employees-car-plant-sunderland-a7603721.html[/url]
Showing my age, I remember when Fleet St was the new building and we moved from The Old Bailey. I am still getting a hell of a laugh out of STWers defending banks and Goldmine Stacks (Alex Cartoon nickname) / Great Vampire Squid (Rolling Stone Magazine) at that. Goldman is pretty smart with its own money, if they weren't going to use the building they'd sell it on now.
Just watched this, tremendous stuff from Jacob-Rees. Absolutely humiliated John Major and his intervention yesterday 😀 IDS on Newsnight was good but of course not up to the same surgical standard
@matty you like the other Remainers take the word "considering" and turn it into an inevitability in the same way BMW are considering moving (establishing really) electric/hybrid Mini production in Germany the UK will be considering a tariff free trade deal for cars and manufacturing with Japan.
Tariffs on cars would be a bigger problem for the EU than it would be for the UK and our auto manufacturing.
even when the only folk sat on one side are gullible, charlatan, mad and/or stupid.
Still no respect for those who disagree with you then b r ?
I would say most people made up their mind over Brexit based on 10, 20, 30 years experience of it. As one MP said during the A50 debate this issue has been discussed and played out for decades. It is simply that June 23, 2016 was the first time in 40 years we where given a say.
Loving your work jamba, fingers in ears about any downsides from Brexit on the economy or anything else, but here look at this erudite brexie clown auto fellating himself ! 😉
As for claims it was a considered decision, arrived at over many years
As you have gleefully pointed out by repeating lies about EU, immigrants, etc and keeping the debate focused on emotive issues Vote Leave was able to sway enough people to scrape its (pyrrhic) victory.
Goldman is pretty smart with its own money, if they weren't going to use the building they'd sell it on now.
They'd sell it off now, off plan, rather than wait 'till it's finished? Why would they do that?
They will use (at least some of) it, but that shouldn't be read as they're going to stick to their plan to move people into the UK… that seems a remote dream in the new Leave era…
Tariffs on cars would be a bigger problem for the EU than it would be for the UK and our auto manufacturing.
Even if that is true, why is it good? Damaging effects on both the rEU and UK industry is good for who? I find no comfort in the rEU being damaged more than us, if it still means job opportunities vanishing here.
Jamba you are a clown
Blighty TV ???
Tariffs on cars would be a bigger problem for the EU than it would be for the UK and our auto manufacturing.
Ha, ha, you do realise that La La land didn't win best picture Jumbla?
That was a classic JR-M clip!!
Loved the Cassandra bit!!
Astounding, and what do our esteemed leavers think will happen to the rest of the Oxford plant if it's hit with a 10% tarrif on the 100,000 plus minis that are exported to the european mainland each year, (represents about £150m per year loss assuming they are all base model mini ones)...plus tarrifs on parts and engines if...
"Cabinet ministers have been told to draw up rearguard plans in case Britain crashes out of the EU with no fresh trade deal.
Brexit Secretary David Davis has urged his colleagues to prepare for what critics have dubbed the doomsday “cliff edge” prospect of leaving on World Trade Organisation (WTO) terms – and hefty tariffs."
A handy reference: WTO rules mean hefty export tariffs on, for example, dairy products (36 per cent), cars (ten per cent), food and drink (20 per cent) and clothing and textiles (10-20 per cent).
@Pigface I did try and find another YouTube channel source but was unable. Inwas glad the clip came up as a suggestion after zi'd watched the official Newsnight one
Kimbers we always said there would be bumps in the road. We quite rightly did ridicule the Armageddon nonsense from Remain, there was even a thread on the ludicrous claims.
Matty the avg tariff is 3% and we already pay those tariifs on clothes/textiles most of which are made in Bangladesh, Vietnam, China etc. Tariff on cars is more than offset by fall in exchnage rate. Problem is with EU facing 10% tariff plus 15% currency costs - that will really hurt sales. 10% tariff will remove EU's advantage over Japan, South Korea for example. Thats why I am highly confident a tariff free deal will be done on cars/manufacturing. French and German elections this year, they can ill afford tariffs.
Why would it be in other side's interests to trade under WTO rules?
Is it not preferable for both sides to reach an agreement on free trade?
Yes is is preferable but we understand who we are dealing with. Politicans on the World's most lucrative gravy train. Also where else can a politician from Luxembourg or Belgium wield so much influence, hardly UN Secrety General material are they ?
10% tariff will remove EU's advantage over Japan, South Korea
Well my strategy in BMWs shoes would be to phase production over to mainland Europe in the long game, no tarrifs for them, unfortunately huge job cuts and lost tax revenue for us.
I don't see it being preferable for anyone.
Everyone is a loser under WTO. So talks of anyone wanting to punish anyone else is rather bizarre IMO. And yet the debate seems only to centre on one side of the argument which given that this is a NEGOTIATION seems rather a strange and myopic approach.
Jacob Rees Mogg really is such a loathsome toad. It utterly defies belief that the disenfranchised poor of this country who voted leave seriously believed that people like him had their best interests at heart. Ditto IDS, Gove, Boris and Nigel.
.. but amusing to watch nonetheless esp the classical references
Jam you just can't stop slinging mud, can you?
Well my strategy in BMWs shoes would be to phase production over to mainland Europe in the long game, no tarrifs for them, unfortunately huge job cuts and lost tax revenue for us.
My guess is that was always the plan since they bought the business. Why make cars in UK when wages in Eastern Europe are so much lower and the countries are literally next door ? I don't Brexit changes much.
As I said we've lost 250,000 finance jobs in last 10 years. Things change.
Nice to see Nissan being about more open, invest loads on money or we are off. Investment good, however, more jobs means more workers, 5% unemployment, doesn't really help supply workers. So who is going to do the jobs?
Well if that's correct, you'd have to ask why they would build such a huge plant in Oxford in the first place lol, I worked there for a short period and its so big it's like a small town.
I'm fairly sure the efficient bean counters at BMW HQ wouldn't have built it there for a laugh.
We've collectively as a country just stuck two fingers up at them, why [i]wouldn't[/i] they move out?
It was there already
My guess is that was always the plan since they bought the business. Why make cars in UK when wages in Eastern Europe are so much lower and the countries are literally next door ?
It's great to see the EU working, shame we'll be missing out.
[i]My guess is that was always the plan since they bought the business. Why make cars in UK when wages in Eastern Europe are so much lower and the countries are literally next door ? I don't Brexit changes much.[/I]
If they only were interested in cheap wages they wouldn't be also producing Mini's in The Netherlands. When you're producing premium products it's all about quality, and then productivity.
You (and I, we've a BMW and a Land Rover) drive premium cars, and when we bought them if we were only concerned about the price we certainly wouldn't buy the cars we have.
The mini is only one product line of, I don't know, say 10 core product lines.
Moving the E mini which they were considering producing in the UK, to Germany, not the cheaper Eastern European nations kinda invalidates your idea. And that's all it is your idea, not what the company has stated it's intentions are.
Pigface - Member
It was there already
Then thier financial interest in the site it will be even less then, if they didn't build it, they can ship out the equipment and robotics easy enough, build minis wherever they please without the 10% tariff and walk away.
Did they purchase the site or are they essentially renting? I honestly don't know, but if they are renting, they've got a lot of reasons to move, and not any I can think of to stay.
The site had a huge spend late 90's early 00's i can't remember exactly when, i do remember working on the supply of the new building though.
Doesn't really matter, it is very easy to move a production line. The timing is also fairly predictable.
All the current cars being built in the UK are going to stay for now. The crunch comes when each model comes to refresh. IF the refresh is within a year or so then it will stay. if the refresh is 4-5 years then the manufacturers will play a waiting game. Obviously they will make plans but i would be shocked if they move production before the end of the production run.
Blunty don't expect to see any car companies up sticks this side of the next GE in 2020.
Yeh I'd agree with that, but it's only 3 years away, not much help to the people who work there for job security.
The mini platform will be overhauled at some point and if they are already thinking of doing the E mini in the Netherlands or Germany, it doesn't bode well for the Oxford workers. Or the UK as a whole, if such a big brand abandons the country, it will influence other potential big multinational investors.
just doing a bit of reading, one thing to watch there is a BMW engine plant in Birmingham that makes the 1.5L units in Minis, and plenty of other beemers. If production shifts away not a good sign.
Well exactly, it's not just the main plant itself, its all the 'local' 3rd party supplier companies, and all their employees that stand to loose out too, and this is just one car manufacturer.
But it's OK because we've 'taken back control' and kicked out a few foreign students who were self funded anyway and not costing the country a penny.
Damn foreign students, cross subsidising our kids if they get to study.
As for the eMini… where will the batteries be made? Such a high value drop in part of the final product needs to avoid crossing customs borders… car really needs to be made in the same market as the batteries, no?
My guess is that was always the plan since they bought the business.
My guess is that you know exactly diddly squat about the matter you are pontificating about.
I think really gets me about Jacob Rees Mogg (and his ilk)is that he is the embodiment of that attitude that, us Brits, are just a cut above everybody else and that is why everything's going to work out fine in the end; all we need to do is reacquaint Europe of this fact.
where will the batteries be made? Such a high value drop in part of the final product needs to avoid crossing customs borders
Given the large size and high weight of them, it would make sense to build them very locally to where the rest of the car is built.
Edit, thinking about it, they could have 'finishing' houses in various countries where the cars are shipped with out batteries, and then added at the last minute, but that would require international agreements which the UK seems to be allergic to at the moment.
us Brits, are just a cut above everybody else and that is why everything's going to work out fine in the end;
I'm sure it will all work out just fine for him and his ilk, whilst he might be witty and eloquent, he was born into serious money, so he can afford to be flippant.
I'm sure it will all work out just fine for him and his ilk, whilst he might be witty and eloquent, he was born into serious money, so he can afford to be flippant.
Always the way, with change comes opportunities if you have the money to take advantage of them. Most people will just do what they can to cope.
I'm sure it will all work out just fine for him and his ilk, whilst he might be witty and eloquent, he was born into serious money, so he can afford to be flippant.
Jacob wasn't born into serious money. His father was editor of the Times so he was very influential and was one of the great and the good. Whilst his father was no doubt very comfortable and gave his son an enviable start in life, his son was always going to have work. He then made a lot of money for himself as a very successful investment manager.
I think really gets me about Jacob Rees Mogg (and his ilk)is that he is the embodiment of that attitude that, us Brits, are just a cut above everybody else and that is why everything's going to work out fine in the end; all we need to do is reacquaint Europe of this fact.
Well, at least gunboat diplomacy is vaguely entertaining - which will be the only upside to Brexit.
When I lived in Oxford the Leyland site was absolutely huge, the Mini factory is tiny by comparison. Yes we'd rather keep it but there would never have been any long term "guaranty" of UK production. As above car production lines are expensive to move.
I'll wager cars and car manufacuring will have a tariff free deal at zero cost.
BMW Production. Isn't it something like all X3/5's are built in the States inc for export to Europe. They seem to manage tariff issues there no ?
mefty - Member
Jacob wasn't born into serious money.
Rees-Mogg was educated at Eton College and subsequently read history at Trinity College, Oxford.
Then went he went into politics. Well rounded individual? Come off it, he's never actually had a job.
He's never worried about his pension or mortgage.
He's a charlatan.
He has, he was a client of mine in the 90s. Looks like he is still wearing same suit and tie too. New and Lignwood (Eton) finest?
Even if he did THM, he was an investment manager when house prices in London were still semi-sensible and stories of city workers doing coke off strippers tits at lunchtime were still doing the rounds.
He has nothing in common with most of the middle classes.
Can't comment on those details except to confirm that those extras never appeared at any of the lunches he attended at our offices.
Nice claret perhaps.
True, there is little "common" about JR-M. heaven forbid !
I'll wager cars and car manufacuring will have a tariff free deal at zero cost
So would I. Tax breaks from government back handers.
Rees-Mogg was educated at Eton College and subsequently read history at Trinity College, Oxford.
Neither of which in those days required serious money, and in the case of the latter still doesn't. Even today, if your kid is seriously bright you can go to Eton for nothing, they have the most generous scholarships of pretty much any school.
True.
But you can also get into the latter by donating a **** tonne of money to the college, or by knowing the right people. I know someone who flunked out of Cambridge and was let back in because....family contacts.
teamhurtmore - Member
He has
He has what?
Of course you do, Tom (Added for clarity)
He has what?
Had a proper job, he was an Investment Manager for many years and set up his own firm with some colleagues in 2007 which now has a few billion under management.
Nice house his father had.
Probably very little money left over after buying that.
Coming from a family with teachers in top privates, I do. 🙂
My cousin used to chair the governors of a reasonable school, the former teacher representing the teaching staff on that body used to waste their time discussing scurrilous gossip, perhaps its a universal failing of the profession in those places?
He was also a mate of mine 😉
Both Cambridge and Oxford are or at least were pretty corrupt in my opinion.
The only reality in which JRM isn't an overprivileged dickhead, is that of a Russian oligarchs.
Rees Mogg
The man who took his nanny door to door campaigning
Well in touch with the common folk
mefty - Member
His father was editor of the Times so he was very influential and was one of the great and the good.
Great and the good what, exactly?
And please don't say manager of an investment firm that he probably paid someone to manage for him anyway because he probably can't do maths anyway, his degree is in history.
I'll wager cars and car manufacuring will have a tariff free deal at zero cost
Which is partly why your logic and maths falls into the Trump area of expertise...
The amount paid to the EU has just about disappeard already, it's being allocated 2 or 3 times over.
Don't worry tarrifs will save us (you know paid for by the public and business alike) so we have to pay more to subsidise things ie less money in pockets (along with a weaker pound)
So then we are going to get rid of any kind of tarrifs and effectivly subsidise buisness to stay put (who will be leaving ASAP if the bribes run out)
So far I see more in the red column than the black one.
[i]BMW Production. Isn't it something like all X3/5's are built in the States inc for export to Europe. They seem to manage tariff issues there no ? [/I]
I've already answered you on this (in another post maybe?), it's because of the TARRIF'S in the USA for 4x4's - and as that's the largest market for these types of vehicles you build them there and export back to other countries.
[I]Don't worry tarrifs will save us (you know paid for by the public and business alike) so we have to pay more to subsidise things ie less money in pockets (along with a weaker pound)[/I]
I also pointed this out previously, and no one seemed to pick up on the 'we pay' bit...
@b r apologies I missed your earlier reply but it makes my point I think. Just becasue tariffs exist doesn't mean its unattractive to put production abroad. Same point on Japanese cars, we buy plenty that are built in Japan.
@mike my point was the EU will IMO agree a tariff free deal for cars and auto manufacuring, its an obvious subset of the single market. Its listed as one of TM's priorities in the Government strategy paper. This deal will involve no budget payment either way (as the benefit to the EU will be offset against benefits we are looking for elsewhere eg financial services)
Tom Oxford and Cambridge are ranked at the top of World Universities due to the quality of their teacheing, research and students. They really do represent the best in general terms. We as a country should be rightly proud of such excellence. I sat the entrance exam back in 1980 when it was an advatgae to come from a private school as they got specific coaching in the unique exams and as a state school boy I did not. That's all changed now. Eton is a fabulous school for a broad variety of reasons and is an example of combining academic excellence with ofher personal skills. It rightly has an oitstanding reputation worldwide.
This deal will involve no budget payment either way (as the benefit to the EU will be offset against benefits we are looking for elsewhere eg financial services)
Be interested to see how it actually plays out though as there is a lot of negotiating to do
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39123604
Kicking off in the lords though
Tom Oxford and Cambridge are ranked at the top of World Universities due to the quality of their teacheing, research and students. They really do represent the best in general terms. We as a country should be rightly proud of such excellence
and now thanks to brexit they can expect to find things tougher to maintain their reputations, both unis believing wed have been better in
still the old folk got their way and we are on our way out
Be interested to see how it actually plays out though as there is a lot of negotiating to do
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39123604
Kicking off in the lords though
Good, any argument about reciprocal rights is crap and shouldn't even be on the table. You live here discussion over. Just an example of the xenophobia being shown by certain parts of the Tory party aided and abetted by the Labour party.
I really had hoped the UK would be better than this, obviously i was wrong.
I really had hoped the UK would be better than this
I put a lot of the blame at May's door. It seems to be her general xenophibia that's setting the tone of the debate. A leader could easily have accepted the referendum result and taken the middle ground, a conciliatory aproach, but she deliberately didn't do this and marched off to the right. This enables all the xenophobes and ignores all the moderates.
A very bad thing she is doing. It makes a drastic result much more drastic instead of tempering it.
I put a lot of the blame at May's door.
Look at her actions at the home office. It says all you need to know IMO.
On the contrary, and despite Major's ill-advised comments, there have been conciliatory comments from both sides - even bloody Verhofstadt, which is saying something. I have been comforted by both May and Barnier's rhetoric and common sense, followed up by the Bundesbank which is not normally associated with conciliatory tones.
May has simply reminded people of some home truths about the vote and what it means. That we, the losers, are trying to re-write history is the sad part. We are still rehashing the same arguments - arguments that were lost - instead of focusing on the job at hand. One of the few people who is exempt from this is the PM.
So far, so good.
May has simply reminded people of some home truths about the vote and what it means. That we, the losers, are trying to re-write history is the sad part.
you really did get a different ballot paper to everyone else
Yes mine was the A3 version with all the permutations and options on. I was able to weight each of the options and critique each one. A rare ballot paper. All a bit unnecesary as I voted to stay - we had a brilliant deal. All those slagging off * CMD look pretty silly now
* albeit he deserved slagging off for overselling his "important clarifications" as being part of restructuring the EU. That WAS BS and steaming BS at that. Probably his biggest mistake.
and saw a different result than the almost too close to call 51/49.
Any decent leader would take that close vote as requiring a middle ground approach. She is acting as though the vote was 90/10.
Yes mine was the A3 version with all the permutations and options on. I was able to weight each of the options and critique each one. A rare ballot paper.
Must have been as you Jamby, TM, Borris, Nige and chewkw all seem to know what leave means but none of you really agree on that.
Odd that - imagine trying to fit all the permutations on a ballot paper!?!
No one knows what leave means other than we are giving up our membership of the EU. I havent mentioned this before but the rest is subject to considerable and lengthy NEGOTIATIONS...
...more to follow, no doubt
May has simply reminded people of some home truths about the vote and what it means.
AFTER the vote! Not very bloody useful.
I can sort of see what you're trying to say, but you have to admit the consequences of the result were massively dependent on the attitude of those implementing it, don't you?
We could have had Norway, Switzerland, or something else - there were loads of options. May has chosen one.
I havent mentioned this before but the rest is subject to considerable and lengthy NEGOTIATIONS
Of course, but you go into negotations with a POSITION and that's May's own decision.
I havent mentioned this before but the rest is subject to considerable and lengthy NEGOTIATIONS...
But yet you seem to want to agree that ruling things out before we start is fine. Maybe you need some caffeine 😉
I do not believe that any option is ruled out - Norway is clearly challenging not least because of FoM but also that
1. It is not clear that other EEA members would want the UK
2. It is only a partial solution esp re movement of goods
Anyone who did a little reading before the vote could have appreciated this or are we still playing the card that all LEAVERS were thick?
May has not chosen one - she is going for a bespoke deal rather than one of the existing options. Again a little reading is your friend.
May has not chosen one - she is going for a bespoke deal rather than one of the existing options.
Ah bespoke, all options open then???
are we still playing the card that all LEAVERS were thick?
It only took about a million, plenty of them could be complete idiots.
May has simply reminded people of some home truths about the vote and what it means
She has simply hijacked the wishes of 25% of the resident population to hell with the wishes of 25% who expressed a contra-opinion, and as for the 50% who weren't able to vote or chose not to. She has ignored the situation in Gibraltar and NI which are far more complicated. Puching the idea that it will be fine etc. Where was the condemnation of press attacks on the judiciary?
Looking at her record at the Home Office i am not optimistic and do wonder if she is simply a xenophobe herself and pushing her personal agenda. After all it seems it was the UK who blocked the EU trade deal with India. Those go home poster that were issued on her watch. etc.
Also the minor detail of her own departmental conflicts with European courts.
Sensible option is to assign probabilities to the various options rather than rule any out at this stage. Pink lines and all that.
At present EEA would appear to have the lowest probability for both obvious and less obvious reasons.
Anyone who did a little reading before the vote could have appreciated this or are we still playing the card that all LEAVERS were thick?
Most voters don't read much - you must acknowledge that.
And you might know better than me but it certainly loks like May is taking a hard line. Unless it's bluff?
Look at her actions at the home office.
Which ones, the ones which were involved in opting out of the police and criminal matters (about 130) and then negotiating an immediate opt-in for the 31 she thought were worthwhile? Seems to indicate an ability to negotiate sensible compromises with our European partners.
It is not clear that other EEA members would want the UK
There would be a lot of resistance, we are just too big relative to the other members.