[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

TMH I'll keep replying as long as others keep posting. List of Remain campaign messages ...

"It's OK it's only £190m a week"
"We want to stay in the EU and reform it (translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)"
"Anyone worried about the pressure on public services and housing as a result of immigration is a racist and we know they are bad people"

Edukator, don't agree about the eurosceptism, see requirement for Referendum on any treaty change. Quite rightly there is zero trust and no desire for further movements towards a super-state. Younare right about the system of government, at present the other parties say they will not form a coalition but the reality may look quite different.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/if-youre-being-a-tax-haven-we-only-really-want-london-say-investors-20170118120390 ]And unfortunately, they're probably on the money with this one[/url]

It's OK it's only £190m a week"
"We want to stay in the EU and reform it (translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)"
"Anyone worried about the pressure on public services and housing as a result of immigration is a racist and we know they are bad people"

Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?

Exactly what it has come to.

The same people voting so can't blame intelligence/education/gullibility on being tricked. All that has changed is the level of populism taking advantage of those who are unable to work things out for themselves.

We either have to stop populism/control the twisted BS or only let people vote when they have evidenced that they have a basic understanding of things they are voting on (not exactly democratic)

There's racism in every country.
In 20 years in the UK, I haven't seen more or less .

But the UK Is not United any more. The Politicians have really ****ed up this time.

only let people vote when they have evidenced that they have a basic understanding of things they are voting on

I've often thought that general elections would have very different results if after you made your vote you had to validate it by correctly selecting five manifesto promises from an anonymous set all promises made by all parties.

Or perhaps, start with that anonymous set, pick the manifesto promises you agree with and your vote is cast on that basis.

Not sure if someone has done this in the UK or not
https://votecompass.abc.net.au
Results are often interesting (liberal means right wing here)

But the UK Is not United any more.

1940

What does the 190m do for the UK? How much will leaving cost?

^this

Even at the original £350 million, it's £5.50 per week per person in the UK. A truly earth shattering amount. And of course it's money for nothing as we get absolutely nothing back in return. Zero.

History will look back on this as one of the greatest cons of all time

TMH I'll keep replying as long as others keep posting

You could try replying with some truthful and constructive answers. That might be an idea.

Even at the original £350 million, it's £5.50 per week per person in the UK. A truly earth shattering amount. And of course it's money for nothing as we get absolutely nothing back in return. Zero

The smiley/irony emoji is on the upper right hand side of the posting box. Avoids anyone taking this seriously by mistake. 😉

I pay for club memberships all the time. I pay them money. But I get stuff in return.

(translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)

I hope that I don't get home later to discover my wife has moved all our stuff into a tent in the road and thrown away our house keys... 🙁

Johnson's lost the plot...

[img] [/img]

When Prince Philip finally shrugs off his mortal coil can we make Johnson the new Duke of Edinburgh? He seems like a natural successor 😀

"It's OK it's only £190m a week"

"We want to stay in the EU and reform it (translation = the EU is broken amd needs fixing)"

"Anyone worried about the pressure on public services and housing as a result of immigration [s]is a racist and we know they are bad people[/s] has been lied to over and over again by the likes of murdoch, farage et. al."

In the meantime in the BBC news today [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38661443 ][b]UK unemployment falls to 1.6 million[/b][/url]

I bet this must be the confidence attributed to the direction of Brexit together with the confidence in the UK industry/market etc ... 😛

Ya, apparently GBP £ has bounced back again ... hhmmm ... the prediction of waste paper £ currency seem to disappoint some. 😆

And Davis Davis reminding us that after winning WW2, Brexit will be ok.

😆

In the meantime in the BBC news today UK unemployment falls to 1.6 million

cchris2lou - Member
And Davis Davis reminding us that after winning WW2, Brexit will be ok.

He is right unless you foresee WW3. 😆

Del - Member

In the meantime in the BBC news today UK unemployment falls to 1.6 million

ahh. the voice of reason is in i see.
anyway. shurley shome mishtake? unemployment that low with all those immigrants taking 'our' jobs?

Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.

Nah its worser...

They wouldn't normally own up to the fact.... now they brazenly do 🙁

All hell should have broken loose after the lies were exposed on both sides.

(Anyway full steam ahead for the London tax haven. We've got your your vote so fK orf Peasents and let me get to the cream.)

When you post a link, you should read it.
People in work is declining for second month in a row .
As with inflation, economic situation is slowly but surely worsening.

In the meantime in the BBC news today UK unemployment falls to 1.6 million

I bet this must be the confidence attributed to the direction of Brexit together with the confidence in the UK industry/market etc ...

And the bounce back on the pound was it heading down again after yesterday.

It may of course rise again.

Foolish chewkw

When May said yesterday that no deal is better than a bad deal, what does that mean in terms of an outcome; does it mean we won't leave after all or does it mean that we will still leave but won't have any kind of trade agreement with the EU?

The second I'm guessing.

igm - Member
And the bounce back on the pound was it heading down again after yesterday.

It may of course rise again.

Foolish chewkw

Are you sure that £££ will not remain constant?

Let me get this right prior to PM May speech £££ took a dive then after PM May speech £££ goes up ...

Put two together the market must be liking PM May speech as well as supporting Brexit.

I recall in the earlier threads before PM May's speech someone associated £££ dive with PM May ... ya, now after PM May's speech £££ goes up. Yippeee ...

GeeTee, br - That might depend on the Irish A50 case. But I haven't heard much on that recently - did it get thrown out?

Chewkw - an hour ago it was heading down again. Haven't checked for an hour though. Good to have you back for comic relief though.

Are you sure that £££ will not remain constant?

I don't think that is what you mean.

Let me get this right prior to PM May speech £££ took a dive then after PM May speech £££ goes up ...

Yep, she wisely trailed all the bad news bit by bit before the speech. Page back and you'll read my praise about her judgment there.

igm - Member
That might depend on the Irish A50 case. But I haven't heard much on that recently - did it get thrown out?

Chewkw - an hour ago it was heading down again. Haven't checked for an hour though. Good to have you back for comic relief though.

So what attributed to what?

Someone on the reminders side could you make up your mind please coz I need to spin the currency roulette again ...

Yep - today it's down against every currency the BBC list. Though probably higher than yesterday morning.

Markets may be putting some store in May's promise of a parliamentary vote on the final deal. Yet to see what that means though. Or they may just be moving around for the hell if it. Wait and see.

The Irish case is ongoing.

If on Twitter, follow ?@JolyonMaugham?

Chewkw - just to help you, the Irish A50 case was designed to test whether A50 once initiated could be revoked. Not sure what you thought I was referring to.

It seems we are reliant on "favours" "friendship"etc for our future well being - shame we just kicked our collective friends in the nuts and the fact that Theresa says Donald has put us at the front of the queue for a trade deal? When he actually said "your doing great" smacks of serious interpretation desperation.

igm - Member
Chewkw - just to help you, the Irish A50 case was designed to test whether A50 once initiated could be revoked. Not sure what you thought I was referring to.

Ya, like Scotland wanting to join EU to test Spain innit. 😆
[b]
Nahh ... no chance in hell A50 can be halted. [/b]

Irish will be treated favorably so they can come and go as they are now but perhaps the Irish will become much more prosperous because the entire EU trade will to sneak in via that door. 😆

That's a decision for the EU not us.

Do we want to halt it is a decision for us. Perhaps after parliament see the deal our crack negotiators have got for us.

I don't know chewkw, we do our best to educate you, but either deliberately or because you don't have the capacity (I suspect the former) you continue to act foolishly. However I shall continue with my attempts even if you really are a lost cause.

Have fun

Trump said his scotish golf resort was doing great.
I thought it was loosing millions, or is it an accountancy loss to avoid paying taxes?

Nahh ... no chance in hell A50 can be halted.

Halted by the UK unilaterally? I suspect not.

Irish will be treated favorably so they can come and go as they are now but perhaps the Irish will become much more prosperous because the entire EU trade will to sneak in via that door.

This perfectly sums up the Irish border conundrum. Bonkers.

igm - Member
That's a decision for the EU not us.

Do we want to halt it is a decision for us. Perhaps after parliament see the deal our crack negotiators have got for us.

Definitely not the EU coz they have no say in UK affairs.

It is also Not up to Scotland to decide if they have a say in this matter because the people have voted to remain in UK.

If the British Govt does not allow another referendum for Scotland then that is the end of the story. The idea of independence is dead in the water. Unless SNP decides to arm themselves to start a civil war.

kelvin - Member
This perfectly sums up the Irish border conundrum. Bonkers.

[s]plan A the norway option[/s]
[s]plan B the swiss option[/s]
[s]plan C the custom "don't you know who we are" option[/s]
plan D the WTO option

can't wait for plan E,F,G.....

Give it a week

German Trade and Commerce spokesperson said Exports to UK are expected to have fallen 5% in 6 months post Referendum due to higher prices due to fall in £ vs €. Ouch.

@Klunk WTO has always been plan A in my mind. No one in the Government or indeed the Leave campaign suggested the deals of Norway / Switzerland where desirable. In fact to the contrary they are undesirable.

sorry should have read

[s]plan C the custom "don't you know who we are" inside the single market option[/s]
[s]plan D the custom "don't you know who we are" outside the single market option[/s]
plan E the WTO option

Why so Jam?

jambalaya - Member

@Klunk WTO has always been plan A in my mind. No one in the Government or indeed the Leave campaign suggested the deals of Norway / Switzerland where desirable. In fact to the contrary they are undesirable.

Kimbers posted the pic on page 584.

chewk, didn't you also note that EMPLOYMENT has fallen, so yes there are less unemployed, but there are also less employed people.

So less people to pay for the brexit ***

chewkw, assuming you're not a bot, please consider these two points:

- For A50 to be revoked, it would probably take all the EU countries to agree, including us. Current understanding is that we couldn't make this happen on our own, and the other EU countries definitely couldn't force it upon us. The Irish test case is hoping to get more legal clarity on this.

- The border between the EU and UK on the island of Ireland would still involve an EU country, inside the single market and customs union, after UK leaves all the European institutions. The UK will not be the only party with a say over how that border works. Your comment, which suggests that border becoming a back door into the EU, makes it perfectly clear why that is the case.

jambalaya - Member
German Trade and Commerce spokesperson said Exports to UK are expected to have fallen 5% in 6 months post Referendum due to higher prices due to fall in £ vs €. Ouch.

You sure Mike 😉

Recent trade history suggests that Germany will be far better able to increase their trade with non EU countries to compensate for trade lost with us. Please argue this isn't true… …I'd love to see the reasoning…

HSBC moving 1000 jobs from London to Paris.
And other banks applying for banking licences on the continent.

We can all pick the news we want. 😉

mrmo - Member
chewk, didn't you also note that EMPLOYMENT has fallen, so yes there are less unemployed, but there are also less employed people.

They have very big headline don't they ... media eh ... 🙄

kelvin - Member
The border between the EU and UK on the island of Ireland would still involve an EU country, inside the single market and customs union, after UK leaves all the European institutions. The UK will not be the only party with a say over how that border works. Your comment, which suggests that border becoming a back door into the EU, makes it perfectly clear why that is the case.

Not a test case. British govt just have to treat Ireland differently from the rest of the EU countries due to the historical British and Irish relationship. Ireland will be treated favourably.

As for back door EU trade that is a minor detail that must work for both the British & Irish govt to work out.

What idiot thinks a weaker Europe is better for the UK?

Welcome to the alternative universe inhabited by the brexiteers

Ha ha haaaaaaaaa we're all bankrupt and living in poverty, but those bloody foreigners are in a much worse position than us because we've taken back control. The mugs!

*waves little flag*

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/woman-in-clown-costume-issues.html

🙂

EU have no say in this matter unless EU want to prevent the Irish from crossing the boarder freely ...

BTW, I too am of a generation who grew up with black and white minstrels and the Robinson's golly. Big sis had a golliwog. Neither of us ended up racist or xenophobic. Oh and I'm against pressurising morris sides to drop their traditional blacking up.

Not that any of that has any real relevance to Brexit.

Definitely not the EU coz they have no say in UK affairs.

Why are we leaving to Take Back Control™ then?

Doesn't Morris dancing celebrate / commemorate moorish pirates / slaves raiding the south coast of England and making off with slaves and booty?

I've always thought it plain odd - never realised they blacked up though.

If they do then it's black slavers (Barbary coast pirates? My memory is hazy) charging in to small English villages armed with cudgels and having their way.

More problems than blacking up there.

[img] [/img]

@Klunk WTO has always been plan A in my mind.

An odd choice given the extensive limitations involved:

1. The biggest shock
2. Greater restrictions for trade in goo and services - including substantial non-tariff barriers
3. Requires even more negotiations - and even worse politics involved
4. We would still be subject to EU rules and regs
5. Weak resolution mechanisms
6. Etc

No one in the Government or indeed the Leave campaign suggested the deals of Norway / Switzerland where desirable. In fact to the contrary they are undesirable.

Yes they did, It only depends on where they lie in the liberalisation v xenophobe spectrum. At the moment, we are looking at a soft FTA all depending on how nasty we can be to foreigners.

Employment is little changed QoQ but better YoY

Unemployment better on both counts

Nominal wages rising above inflation

Bloody Tor........ 😉

2. Greater restrictions for trade in goo and services - including substantial non-tariff barriers

Do we import much goo? 🙂

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/18/boris-johnson-world-war-two-punishment-beatings-brexit-francois-hollande

Just caught up on the last couple of days over lunch. So many things I wanted to pick up on but the conversation's moved on, so I'll not bother with them all. There's a couple that jump out though:

Now I will not deny getting a French passport is easier than her getting a UK one, AFAIK it's automatic as she is French and we where married in France. UK has more detailed rules and form filling as a responce to many "arranged marriages" and a wish to combat that.

Jamba, how does your wife feel about all this? Is she happy that she might not be able to live in her country of choice any longer as a direct result of her husband's actions?

No it's the British people. The governments position was to remain. The public disagreed. They are responsible but I accept that individual responsibility is an unpopular concept these days

This is simply spin. It's the Government's fault for putting the single biggest and most complex decision our country's ever made, one with global ramifications, into the hands of the general public. I've said this before; it's a public who, as a vast majority (ie, an actual majority rather than 48:52) are ill-equipped to make such a decision.

Not that I'm saying we're / they're stupid (though almost half must be below average intelligence by definition), but even the relatively more intelligent people aren't necessarily going to know anything about International economics, trade deals, political wranglings and so forth that must all be considered in order to come to the right decision. For all that I have strong feelings on the matter, making that decision is certainly above my pay grade.

This is why we have politicians to represent us. People who (at least in theory) have a better insight and greater experience and therefore [i]are[/i] equipped to be making those decisions on our behalf for the benefit of the country as a whole. That's the very definition of Democracy.

Instead, we're looking at an Etch-a-Sketch undoing of everything anyone in politics has negotiated for for my entire lifetime, based on what's tantamount to a coin flip.

I could be wrong. Brexit could just be the best thing that ever happens to us. I sincerely hope that if and when we do go ahead with it I'm proved wrong, but I have grave doubts that that will be the case. Either way though, personal politics aside surely anyone with half a clue whether Remainer or Leaver, surely it's as plain as the nose on your face that this is an absolutely insane [b]reason[/b] for ploughing on ahead regardless with Brexit?

Doesn't Morris dancing celebrate / commemorate moorish pirates / slaves raiding the south coast of England and making off with slaves and booty?

according to the article on the radio i heard, it was seasonal labourers who needed to supplement their income in the winter by begging / street busking. However these activities were illegal hence they used to black up as a disguise.

The pro blacker-uppers therefore contend that it was never racially motivated / the antis say that it risks being seen in that way / causing offence so they can continue the tradition of 'disguise' by using coloured face paint now (which wouldn't have been available in the 1600's / wasn't as cheap as chimney soot)

Why Morris then? The explanation I had was that it was a corruption of Moorish.

chewkw you do understand that Ireland being part of the EU will only be able to give us the same deal as we get from the rest of the EU. This being one of the prime points of the EU is that everyone is equal within it and no two countries can make a special deal. One of the reasons why people keep saying we have to get out..

We can do anything we want on our side and let in workers etc to the UK but they do not have the same luxury (or to the same extent as they have as well as us currently do have immigration controls). When we finally leave there will have to be a re-establishment of the border just as there will be at the channel tunnel etc.

This is simply spin.

No its not, it's what happened.

It's the Government's fault for putting the single biggest and most complex decision our country's ever made, one with global ramifications, into the hands of the general public. I've said this before; it's a public who, as a vast majority (ie, an actual majority rather than 48:52) are ill-equipped to make such a decision.

Neither the biggest not the most complex, but I get/accept the underlying point.

People are ill-equippped but that doesn't/shouldn't stop them playing an active part in the process. We are always making decisions based on imperfect information every day of our lives. Smart people work hard to reduce the gap in the knowledge, others wing it.

Not that I'm saying we're / they're stupid (though almost half must be below average intelligence by definition), but even the relatively more intelligent people aren't necessarily going to know anything about International economics, trade deals, political wranglings and so forth that must all be considered in order to come to the right decision. For all that I have strong feelings on the matter, making that decision is certainly above my pay grade.

As above, I appreciate that individual responsibility is a lost concept these days and we like to rely on the state or someone else, but that's a sad excuse*. There is plenty of material available to help understand the issues - but people cant be arsed. Tough, live with the consequences then.

This is why we have politicians to represent us. People who (at least in theory) have a better insight and greater experience and therefore are equipped to be making those decisions on our behalf for the benefit of the country as a whole. That's the very definition of Democracy.

No its the definition of representative government. I do, hv, have some sympathy with this idea - very much the Ken Clarke school - but having listened to many of our representatives over the past few months I doubt than many of them are well equipped either.

But imagine for one moment, if the gov had done the opposite and said. This is too important for you the hoi-polloi. We the Westminster elite are going to tell you, the great unwashed, what is good for you and you will bloody well like it. Either that or lump it. Now get back in your boxes and STFU.

*Ernie's poster girl warned us all about this many years ago but was misunderstood. Shame, on that at least, she was correct.

<mod>
Guys, this thread is already mahoosive enough without random tangents. There's potential merit in discussing whether morris dancers eating marmalade is racist, but do you want to start another thread if so?

Ta.
</mod>

tangentist.

This is too important for you the hoi-polloi. We the Westminster elite are going to tell you, the great unwashed, what is good for you and you will bloody well like it. Either that or lump it. Now get back in your boxes and STFU.

Er… isn't it the "Westminster elite" taking decisions, for us, that is exactly what is happening? I don't see our new PM putting her new manifesto for Britain's future to the vote, do you?

did you hear the speech yesterday?

The government is not executing a mandate that they advised against but the public voted for. Yesterday, they clarified a few issues for the hard of thinking and then explained their approach (a bespoke deal) and where that sat at the start of the negotiations (soft FTA). The rest is not subject to W'minster but the negotiations between us and 27 others.

Interestingly IMO - the potential hardliners eg, us (!) and Barnier seem closer to Frau Compromise leaving only a few (our Dutch mate, the Maltese and idiots like Farage) at the lose:lose end. The grown ups will make this work in the end, albeit at a cost to us. We just have to keep the idiots out of harms way. Unfortunately, they are a bit too central at the moment, but the boss seemed strong enough at the moment to keep them vaguely under control.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/17/leave-remain-theresa-may-single-market-brexit-liberal-democrats ]About the only sensible comment you'll hear out of a British politician on the subject. And it's a lib dem [/url] 😯

It'all be worth the Labour Party having a read, as it's where a massive wedge of their former voters will be heading

Listening to (sad) HoC yesterday and today, it stuck me how, as someone who wants Scotland to stay in the UK and votes LibDem, it is only really the SNP members and a handful of Tory MPs asking pertinent questions on this issue in parliament. The two UK wide opposition parties are totally missing in action (one thanks to paucity of numbers, the other thanks to the fact it is eating itself). We really need a way to kick our MPs up the arse…

But Dan "the han" Hannan said no one was talking about threatening our place in the single market - so pretty close to saying stay in single market then.

Hang on a minute though, when was that quote from?

Is someone deliberately misrepresenting the facts by pretending that he was talking during referendum campaign I wonder?

More #fakenews from the remainders

The rest is not subject to W'minster but the negotiations between us and 27 others.

The deal we get is down to all countries.
The deal we try to get is down to "us".

Unfortunately, here, "us" means a handful of "elites" on the right of the Tory party… not Westmister as a whole, and certainly not we plebs.

People are ill-equippped but that doesn't/shouldn't stop them playing an active part in the process.

Playing an active part, sure. People vote for their representatives, government canvas public opinion, people voice their concerns, parliament make final decisions. That's us taking a part.

But making the final decision via mod rule? Barking.

As above, I appreciate that individual responsibility is a lost concept these days and we like to rely on the state or someone else, but that's a sad excuse*. There is plenty of material available to help understand the issues - but people cant be arsed. Tough, live with the consequences then.

As ever, I don't think it's that simple. I mean, yes, I'd agree that there will be a large number of people for whom that's true (though we'd lose a lot of the apathetic in those who didn't bother to even vote). But I'll guess there will be considerably more who believed they already had the facts. How many people gave a second thought to the single market or any of the other things we may or may not end up keeping? I didn't, never crossed my mind that it was something I should learn about (I've learned a lot about it all from this very thread, shame no-one had this discussion a year earlier).

I mean, it wasn't a complex question, it was "should we leave? [yes] [no]" - a simple question has a simple answer, right? People believe whatever they trust is correct, which is whoever is largely in line with what they want to believe, whether that's "experts" trying to predict what will happen or that nice man on the telly with his bus.

Because thinking about it: all the vox pops we've had with "the man in the street" after the event, asking people why they voted - how many people cited more than one reason? I've read so many comments from people who have asked family and been told things like "well more money for the NHS is good, right?"

having listened to many of our representatives over the past few months I doubt than many of them are well equipped either.

Well, I'm inclined to agree, but that's a whole other argument.

But imagine for one moment, if the gov had done the opposite and said. This is too important for you the hoi-polloi. We the Westminster elite are going to tell you, the great unwashed, what is good for you and you will bloody well like it. Either that or lump it. Now get back in your boxes and STFU.

How is that different to any other policy change or law amendment ever? Snooper's Charter, anyone? I don't remember being consulted about that.

tangentist.

Very good. (-:

Kelvin - aren't you being a bit harsh on your team? As a remainer I am very sympathetic to Farron's views even though I think that his rejection of the result and proposals yesterday were disingenuous. His comments on democracy was an understandable melodrama and rather amusing too! But at least you can understand where the LDs are coming from

Labour are just sad to watch - agreed
The SNP talking shite, albeit understandably given their unique position.

But making the final decision via mod rule? Barking.

I thought we agreed that you lot do quite a good job!!