[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

No one can answer the simple question of what happens if either vote it down in the end

Some muppet on Newsnight talking about grieving today!!!

A very good speech PM May.

Much better than many of the past PMs'.

EU bureaucrats know they need to negotiate with UK so whatever opinions they have are just opinions, whether the individual EU states support the decision of the EU bureaucrats is to be seen. I think EU system is breaking up because they are treating some of the EU states unfairly and they don't agree with each others other than bullying the smaller states.

Well I'm still ****ing gutted about losing my freedom of movement, and feel even worse about my kids never having it.

[quote=molgrips ]feel even worse about my kids never having it.That's my remorse - the long term effect on my daughters future well-being.

Yes, but we're going to make damn sure that the Govt gets as little of our money as possible

Nice idea, but short of moving abroad, how do the middle classes, who have their tax deducted by their employer, actually do that?

Edit: live on TV, Mefty. Being rich and powerful are the only requirements for a Davos invite (journos apart)
I'm not complaining about the fact she has set out what she wants. I'm complaining that's it's unrealistic, and delivered in a frankly insulting manner.

You need to be quicker with your edits, so are you rich and powerful or are you a journo? Or were you not in Davos? Theresa May certainly wasn't - not her thing I imagine - the fact there was a picture of Pitt the Elder in the background should have been a clue. Tusk has welcomed it as more realistic, as has Merkel for its clarity, maybe you dont have a thick enough skin for politics, I thought it was polite. Also if you thought it was insulting, I would advise you not to venture to the Netherlands, they are frightfully blunt there.

THM - told you we'd disagree at some point. 😉
But deep in your heart you know I'm right. May really is useless.

I am not a fan igm but today frankly she went up in my estimations as painful as it is to say that

She was clear and sensible in what she said, if not in the rationale behind in. This is flawed but tant pis I am in the minority there

I think we need to forward the link that I shared with you a couple of days ago as so many simply fail to get the basics !'

Sorry that our agreeement was so short. 😉

My wife's family in America mostly aren't professionals except one, and she's an accountant so hardly an in demand skill. They are essentially stuck in America, they (along with most of the country) can't work anywhere else.

We're going to be like that.

No we are not - unless we chose to be - why the melodrama!

I am not a fan igm but today frankly she went up in my estimations as painful as it is to say that

She is clearly supremely confident, she doesn't seem to care about control of "media narrative", her attitude seems to be government is a serious business, 24 hour news isn't, so I'm buggered if I am going to pander to you - quite a departure, one I didn't think would work but I now think it does.

No we are not - unless we chose to be - why the melodrama!

It's molgrips - it's his middle name.

Actually I think she is anything but confident. Her eyes and body language suggest to me someone who is a uncomfortable in the spotlight - she is a deputy not a leader IMO and her demeanour gives this away

Big yes i agree that "this is serous, 24 hour gossip isn't" was refreshing and timely particular in contrast to the ragbag that followed.

Edukator how on earth is it unreasonable ? We have a trade deficit with EU, no tariffs favours the EU. May said Brits like buying EU products and want to continue as we in the UK want to keep selling ours. A sensible deal is win-win. The EU had a chance to agree meaningful reforms and it declined, they took a punt on Remain and lost out.

The debate in the EU hasn't really begun on how they are going to adjust to €10bn less pa budget wise, cuts or increased contributions ? A mix of both.

Name one, I'm failing.

Spain (monkey chants and throwing bananas at black England footballers, ever looked at a top Spanish football team and compared the number of black players with say a UK, German or French side ?)
Poland
Hungary
Slovakia (zero Muslim refugees here as we have no Mosques and they won't feel at home)

@chris maxing out the Credit Card is rather ironic metaphor in light of the state of Southern European Government's finances

@molgrips the US is a country of 350m people and far richer than large chunks of Europe, job prospects for your relatives are far better there and US growth is far stronger.

The EU reaction (as reported) was interesting as for me May just confirmed what the Government has been saying all along and is consistent with her Party Conference speech. What will really sink in is the no budget confribution point above and the fact that the UK does not value THE single market as highly as the EU seems to. On French news May's speech was 6 minutes in after pieces on the cold weather, good snow in ski resorts and Valls getting slapped, election ... it was covered a but not a high priority.

EDIT: German Green Party MPs seem to be a bit more firey than our own warm and cuddly pacificst vegan types 🙂

“May: Go **** yourself EU but please don’t let us down. Whine whine,” tweeted Jan Philipp Albrecht, Green Party MEP for northern Germany.

“Many of the 52 per cent of Brits voting leave clearly believed that they would stay in a common European market. They’re ****ed together with the 48 per cent,” he added.

 

Davos. There are plenty of hangers on, for every CEO there is his/her entourage. For every CEO there are 100 chancer sales people hanging around outside the official events. Then you have all the politicians. Well except Merkel, suddenly politicians seem keen to avoid being seen at such Cathedrals of the Global Establishment 🙂

Just wonderin'

Why is she running about like Rod Stewart or the durty one oot the Bay City Rollers?

“May: Go **** yourself EU but please don’t let us down. Whine whine,” tweeted Jan Philipp Albrecht, Green Party MEP for northern Germany.

Ah, European politicians talking tough, that's worked well in the past, hasnt it?

[i]'In three weeks England will have her neck wrung like a chicken.'[/i]

this is fun.

nobody knows whats happening.

the brexit campaign big steaming pile of lies, the government response -they have no idea what to do.

this is because the vote to leave was purely and simply on immigration.

so, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now 'we're less racist than other countries'

so, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now 'we're less racist than other countries'

What race are European people then?

[quote=ninfan ]What race are European people then?

Zzzzzzzzz

Actually I think she is anything but confident. Her eyes and body language suggest to me someone who is a uncomfortable in the spotlight - she is a deputy not a leader IMO and her demeanour gives this away

Maybe she'll surprise me once the gloves are off and she has to do something other than read out wish lists, but I'm not sure.

What race are European people then?

and she has spent a lot of time in front of a mirror rehearsing

That is really only of use if you have a reflection....

, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now 'we're less racist than other countries'

Irrational fear of EU immigration is xenophobia not racism.

so, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now 'we're less racist than other countries'

Nope, pointing out that people in the UK are often stunningly ignorant of other countries. They go to one for a week in the sun or a schmoke and a pancake and think that they a paradise without racism, not understanding just how good race relations in the UK are compared to some of them.

he brexit campaign big steaming pile of lies

There are none so blind as those that choose not to see. Obviously you are passionate about one side of the decision that was fixed last year. There were lies told by the leave campaign, not least the very silly figure on the bus - the real figure was bad enough, it did not need to be massaged.

But if, in your passion you chose not to see that the remain case was a basket of lies, then who can help you ? Be passionate about your case, but please, have the sense to see that both sides lied, the Empire side more so than the the rebel alliance.

Or, it could just be that they were spectacularly unlucky at creating economic forecasts, forgot to have an emergency budget, forgot to put us at the back of the [i]line[/i], and so on, and so on, and so on.

Shackleton - to some its xenophobia but for many the motivation is clearly racist. The mainstream leavers might be xenophobic but there is a strong undercurrent of racism

I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

just how good race relations in the UK are compared to some of them

Go on then, name and shame.

Jamby came up with Spain on the basis of Spanish football fans. A bit rich given the behaviour of England fans abroad and at home.

she doesn't seem to care about control of "media narrative

But her speech seems directly aimed at a particular set of people and the media that they consume. Like any modern politician I think she's probably obsessed by the media narrative to a worrying degree.

Be passionate about your case, but please, have the sense to see that both sides lied

not one single thing has been confirmed, apart from the granite cornerstone of 'no more immigration'.

everything, everything else can be smashed against it.

if you voted leave, how do you feel that absolutely nothing apart from that is being delivered?

I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

Great anecdote, dude.

to some its xenophobia but for many the motivation is clearly racist. The mainstream leavers might be xenophobic but there is a strong undercurrent of racism

For the record I am in favour of FOM.

None of the leavers I have spoken to have said anything overtly racist but they have been strong xenophobes. The same goes for national commentary in the press. I don't even think Farage is a committed racist but is happy to use latent racist sympathies to stir up xenophobia for his own ends.

Yes, some leavers are racists, but I have family members who voted remain, live in Leicester and have no problem with FOM but constantly talk about "them" (large 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant asian community) and their strange habits that aren't right. So anecdotally they crop up on both sides of the divide. And bear in mind that virtually all news reporting on the subject is anecdotal too.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that tarring leavers as racist because a small minority are undermines your own argument because it is patently untrue and gets in the way of constructive dialogue. Saying that much of the popular leave vote was driven by xenophobia probably isn't far from the mark and is what needs to be worked on to make a better society.

Be passionate about your case, but please, have the sense to see that both sides lied

😀 @Shackleton

I was going to complement her hairdresser on making her look less like Gary Oldman in Dracula, but that would be a bit shallow.

Remember Cantona?

Matthew Simmons had rushed down eleven rows of the stand to hurl abuse at the departing genius. He memorably informed The Sun his exact words were: ‘Off you go Cantona – it’s an early bath for you!’ More reliable witnesses have suggested it was closer to: ‘F off, you motherfing French *******.’

Now try and find any hint of the racist insult (definition time again Ninfan) in the [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/11360718/Eric-Cantonas-kung-fu-kick-on-Crystal-Palace-fan-was-a-moment-of-madness-that-stunned-the-football-world.html ]Telegraph article on the incident.[/url]

[I]The debate in the EU hasn't really begun on how they are going to adjust to €10bn less pa budget wise, cuts or increased contributions [/I]

I think that our borrowing +£50bn pa is a far bigger problem.

Great anecdote, dude.

I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

Laugh if you wish but unfortunately it is true. Not just the followers of Gert Wilders, Zwaart Piet, burka bans, complaints about people talking foreign in public, posters on domestic violence featuring exclusively dark skinned people - hell, I even felt unwelcome myself for the first time in my life I felt discriminated against on the grounds of my race. Very strange feeling.

Point of order regarding Zwarte (black) Piet - 90% do NOT resist his changing from the blackface, that's a made up figure Jambs.

There are some in NL that are saying they refuse to let his appearance be changed by outsiders, that it's Dutch tradition etc etc but they're mostly supporters of Geert Wilders (20% ish, but that's today's politics)

The actual intention of ZP is unclear but the backstory is not that they are slaves but that they are there to give gifts to the children along side Saint Nicholaas. Yes the iconography is very outdated, but that is slowly changing.

It's certainly not racist in intention, it just looks odd. He's actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney, though it's taking a long time to change the standard outfit.

Also, saying other countries are more racist than the UK doesn't make it any more acceptable, it's just a race to the bottom.

granite cornerstone of 'no more immigration'

No.

No [u][b]UNLIMITED[/b][/u] immigration.

That IS NOT THE SAME as "no migration" and I don't know of anyone who is suggesting that there should be no immigration - if you have a source, I would love to see it.

Immigration has been good for the country, but do you really think that it could go on at the rate that it has ? Would you really be happy if in 5 years they concrete over your favourite trails to build the housing that is needed because we are forbidden to control the numbers of people that come to the UK ?

Hyperbole much, Cranberry?

I felt discriminated against on the grounds of my race. Very strange feeling.

Immigration has been good for the country, but do you really think that it could go on at the rate that it has ?[b] Would you really be happy if in 5 years they concrete over your favourite trails to build the housing that is needed because we are forbidden to control the numbers of people that come to the UK ?[/b]

I was going to complement her hairdresser on making her look less like Gary Oldman in Dracula, but that would be a bit shallow.

Yep after all the effort with her magnum opus you only took any notice of her hair.

you getting a crush on her 🙂

@DrJ, all I can say is having lived here and in the UK too, I see no more evidence of racism here than in the UK, just the same level as the UK but with a different attitude to change - very slow and considered.

Additionally, the UN findings on the racism inherent in ZP only annoyed more people; people that would be happy to listen to the feelings of those who don't appreciate the ZP iconography are now resisting the changes because they're annoyed they're being told by someone else what the intention of their own cultural icon is. Own goal there.

I certainly haven't seen evidence of the discrimination inherent in your post.... Though I am sure it exists somewhere I disagree about it's prevalence (been here 16 months now).

It's certainly not racist in intention

Would you like to come and join me - I've got tickets to The Black and White Mistrels show - they'll be singing Mammy ?

We could take a pot of jam with us, you know, the one with the Gollywog on the top ?

No ?

Zwarte Piet is a slave, owned by a white man, who has had his chanins removed in the last couple of years. He is a blacked up white man.

Nevertheless, according to a 2013 survey, upwards of 90% of the Dutch public don't perceive Zwarte Piet to be a racist character or associate him with slavery and are opposed to altering the character's appearance.[30] This correlates to a 2015 study among Dutch children aged 3–7 which showed that they perceive Zwarte Piet to be a fantastical clownish figure rather than a black person.[31] However, the number of Dutch people who are willing to change certain details of the character (for example its lips and hair) is reported to be growing.[32][33]

Would any of that stand up to scrutiny in the UK ?

[img] [/img]

Opposition to the figure is mostly found in the most urbanized provinces of North- and South Holland, where between 9% and 7% of the populace wants to change the appearance of Zwarte Piet. In Amsterdam, the nation's capital, most opposition towards the character is found among the Ghanaian, Antillean and Dutch-Surinamese communities, with 50% of the Surinamese considering the figure to be discriminatory to others, whereas 27% consider the figure to be discriminatory towards themselves.[34] The predominance of the Dutch black community among those who oppose the Zwarte Piet character is also visible among the main anti-Zwarte Piet movements, Zwarte Piet Niet and Zwarte Piet is Racisme which have established themselves since the 2010s. Generally, adherents of these groups consider Zwarte Piet to be part of the Dutch colonial heritage, in which black people were subservient to whites and/or are opposed to what they consider stereotypical black ("Black Sambo") features of the figure, such as bright red lips, curly hair and large golden earrings.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet ][/url]

[img] [/img]

Yep it's like debating a toddler

Once you learn that the purpose of debate is to persuade people to vote for your side, rather than generate facebook likes from like-minded individuals, you might actually achieve something.

Yeah I get it, he looks awful in 2017 but honestly, it's not either the sticking point you say it is.

There's many now different colour Piets - things are changing. Blackface and Gollywogs are still used here, but much more innocently than you are projecting. It's not the same thing, and it is changing. You can quote stuff all day but how much time do you actually spend here?

And you're wrong about the back story - there is no agreed narrative. EG my girlfriend's school taught her (20 years ago) that ZPs are demons.

He hands out presents to the kids, it may look very odd but it's actually a lovely idea, all the children come together in the streets and celebrate the arrival of Saint Nicholaas* an ZP, we only get that when Sports Direct had been looted.

Try googling "Rainbow Piet"... There's plenty of progress and support for changing the iconography, it's just very slow moving.

[b]For the record, I am convinced the character needs to be de-blackfaced[/b] and I have argued quite sucessfully with the people who oppose it. It's not really complex, he doesn't need to look like that.... but you're misunderstanding the deeper cultural context and the way most people actually feel about the character.

*he is actually a Saint - in some versions of the story he's freed the Moorish Piets and they're here's with him of their own accord. I get it [again] that it looks pretty terrible, but if they're Moorish Slaves and the Dutch population is mostly white how else would you expect them to look?

No we are not - unless we chose to be

Explain?

@molgrips the US is a country of 350m people and far richer than large chunks of Europe, job prospects for your relatives are far better there and US growth is far stronger

You really don't get my point. This has nothing to do with simply finding a job. It's about the experience of being able to live and work in another country. Which will now be very much more difficult from what I can tell. This isn't melodrama, I am really upset about this.

My family really do wish for this opportunity, that up til now I've had but now seems to be going away.

This is a crying shame, you have to admit.

It's certainly not racist in intention, it just looks odd. He's actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney, though it's taking a long time to change the standard outfit.

Certainly not my understanding from living there, St Nicholas (who as everyone knows is Turkish) lands in Southern Spain, which was controlled by the Moors at the time, and picks up Zwart Piet there.

Sorry I looked away for a minute. Is this the why on earth are we committing economic suicide (while taking as many down with us as possible) thread or the who's the most racist thread?

Sorry I looked away for a minute. Is this the why on earth are we committing economic suicide (while taking as many down with us as possible) thread or the who's the most racist thread?

That seems to be the long and short of it, just look at Express/Mail headlines or most of Farage's soundbites, who's great grandfather was an immigrant. 😕

That's easy - it's Morris Dancers. Allegedly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/25/shrewsbury-folk-festival-bans-blackface-morris-dancers/

Once you learn that the purpose of debate is to persuade people to vote for your side, rather than generate facebook likes from like-minded individuals, you might actually achieve something.

Also for the record - I would never dream of dressing up like that.

When you have the established thing that brings everyone together and is generally regarded as a really sweet and community-driven moment, how would you proceed? Especially in a country where everything is slow to change as people default to taking everyone else's point of view into consideration. In my experience the issue is that they don't want to lose the coming-together, and falling out over the colour is harming that as well.

Overall the Dutch are keen to have good relations with everybody, they built everything on trade after all. Let them get on with adapting, but the harder you push they harder they want to push back [reminds me of a certain referendum]...

Anyway - I fear this is a little OT. Again, in case anyone wants to paint* me as racist: [b]I think it looks terrible[/b], but I also think only the Dutch know the meaning of the cultural event. Some things just can't translate - like "gezellig" "nog" or "slag" which just don't have English equivalents.

*pink with sparkles please.

He's actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney,

I have heard that rationalisation - I'm not sure how chimneys give you curly hair and big lips!

After a good chat with her this morning on the way to school, here is the considered opinion of my 12 (nearly 13) year old....

Her generation have been totally betrayed by a much older, selfish generation who are inherently racist, and not very bright, and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed

Difficult to argue with that assessment really

Would you like to come and join me - I've got tickets to The Black and White Mistrels show - they'll be singing Mammy ?

We could take a pot of jam with us, you know, the one with the Gollywog on the top ?

No ?

I watched the B&W Minstrel show, I ate robinsons jam, I do believe that there was a toy golliwog in the toy cupboard, and there were frequent appearences in books.
Guess what? It didn't make me a racist, I wasn't at the time and I am not now.

I did too, and you know what? I'm not sure I can put my hand on my heart and say it never affected the way I saw things, if not now, at some point in my life.

I also read "Little Black Sambo" books, which incidentally are still on sale in Denmark.

After a good chat with her this morning on the way to school, here is the considered opinion of my 12 (nearly 13) year old....

Her generation have been totally betrayed by a much older, selfish generation who are inherently racist, and not very bright, and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed

Difficult to argue with that assessment really

Too bad our "leaders" are not as smart as your 12 year old 🙁

My daughter (older than 12) was not happy about discovering that in a couple of years she may only be able to see her mum on holiday visits.

DrJ - Member
He's actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney

I have heard that rationalisation - I'm not sure how chimneys give you curly hair and big lips!

No it sucks. Anyway, I am sorry you had a bad experience here. I can only say from my time in Gelderland [pretty damn rural] the majority of people are kind, generous and don't want to offend. Your posts usually make me smile, so let me know if you happen to travel near Arnhem and we can have a beer and swap stories.

so let me know if you happen to travel near Arnhem and we can have a beer and swap stories.

Deal 🙂

Look on the bright side binners, if your daughter is that articulate at 12 then she is destined to great things!ww

+1 - it'll be smart people like her (and I'll add my similarly aged daughter to that) will be the ones who dig us back out of this mess.

and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed

We are going to lose the Greggs Steak Bake when we leave the EU, how come this didn't emerge in the campaign, it would have been a game changer.

And to be able to call out the other side and dare to ask them to provide proof for their claims....

And you know what, by doing so you fell right into their trap, as Dominic Cummings made clear, the £350 million figure was a tactic, they knew it was an exaggeration, but also knew while everyone discussed our EU contribution, Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

Look on the bright side binners, if your daughter is that articulate at 12 then she is destined to great things!

Luckily she takes after her mum Hurty! 😉

And you know what, by doing so you fell right into their trap, as Dominic Cummings made clear, the £350 million figure was a tactic, they knew it was an exaggeration, but also knew while everyone discussed our EU contribution, Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.

binners daughter for PM!

Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

I think that nicely exemplifies what the right are all about these days

I can only say from my time in Gelderland [pretty damn rural] the majority of people are kind, generous and don't want to offend.

Currently watching Braindead on Amazon Prime which is a stunningly good show, quite appropriate to this thread in many ways. They (re) made the point that people can be lovely individually but vicious when you get them together.

Funny that, isn't it?

Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?

Yep. As I've always said, the concept only works if everyone is a rational actor. And we are far from that. So how to fix it? As in almost everything in the world, the bottom line is EDUCATION.

@gofastr as a point of order I made no comment about Black Piet, I do know my mate with a Dutch wife thinks he's a very "dodgy" chatacter in today's world.

tjagain - Member
I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

TJ "Holland's Farage" is on track to be the largest party in Parliament after the elections. The Dutch where sufficiently hacked off with the EU to pass a law requiring ANY Treaty modification to require a binding vote in Parliament. They are arguably far more Eurosceptic than the UK.

Being concerned about the level of immigration amd the inability to control it is neither racist nor xenophobic, its just asking that the UK be like the 150 other countries in the world not part of the EU

tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?

Remain totally failed to show what the real figure was, eg "its ok it's only £190m" per week and how that represented value for money when we have a trade deficit.

£363m a week comes from Government Budget report. You can ask the EU what our net contribution is and you will get more than 30 different answers. Chaos.

@br I am willing to bet our "exit" payment will be limited to MEP pensions or less. EU is facing massive budget problems with cost of Greek default and contagion, increased NATO member spending demanded by Trump, excessive national debts giving little room for manoeuvre all in the face of very weak economies already facing youth unemployment of 25-50%.

Kimbers. - why is leave synonymous with the right?

. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

:D. A tad too subtle perhaps!!! 😀

Is this what our democracy has come to - tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.

You misunderstand the tactic, they weren't trying to trick people to vote for them, they were trying to trick the other side into spending time arguing on territory that suited them. You always want to fight on the terrain that suits you, that has been the case since time immemorial, Cicero certainly understood its importance.

Kimbers. - why is leave synonymous with the right?

Because the right are wrong and Leave is wrong too.

]£363m a week comes from Government Budget report. You can ask the EU what our net contribution is and you will get more than 30 different answers. Chaos.

Jambas you guys won. It's ok. You do not need to keep posting stuff that is untrue. Enjoy the victory but don't kick the unfortunates when they are down. That too much!!!

At least he is partially correct 😉

they were trying to trick the other side into spending time arguing on territory that suited them. You always want to fight on the terrain that suits you,

Oh, it was indeed cranberry that posted the 90% figure! Sheesh, I should coffee before posting. My apologies, Jambalaya.

Looking at that post again - the "cars catching fire" bit is odd. The Dutch set fireworks off in the street for newyears, EVERYWHERE. But they only do it for 4 days a year 'else it's illegal*.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, however.

*they do also do this, however. ALL THE SODDING TIME. FOR DAYS AND DAYS...

The Dutch far right party is predicted to get 21% in the legislative elections and have very little influence as it's a proportional representation system, Jamba. The Dutch population is very much in favour of the Euro and less eurosceptic than the UK. They express their euroscepticism by voting against changes to EU treaties and proposing reforms. Just as the UK could have done while still a member but will no longer have any say at all in.

[url= http://www.lesechos.fr/monde/europe/0211623127600-a-suivre-en-2017-les-pays-bas-premier-test-de-la-vigueur-de-lextreme-droite-en-europe-2055211.php ]Les Echos on the Netherlands.[/url]

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/no-really-whats-the-plan-though-may-asked-20170118120398 ]The Mash nails it yet again[/url]