[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I found this article interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/18/brexit-leavers-fear-their-lies-will-haunt-them

[I]Older people (not riding) and working class people (mtb an unaffordable luxury) voted Leave. STW is not representative on this issue. [/I]

Yes, those not involved in wealth creation voted Leave, whereas those of us who'll be required to 'finance' (money, skill, emotion) it all voted Remain...

Yes, those not involved in wealth creation voted Leave, whereas those of us who'll be required to 'finance' (money, skill, emotion) it all voted Remain...

Alternatively interpreted as those who were already doing quite nicely for themselves voted to maintain the status quo, and those who benefitted least from it voted for change.

Alternatively interpreted as those who were already doing quite nicely for themselves voted to maintain the status quo, and those who benefitted least from it voted for [s]change. [/s] improvement.

Told you all before, you get your £350 million just after I get that complete collapse of western political civilisation that I was promised by remain

[i]Told you all before, you get your £350 million just after I get that complete collapse of western political civilisation that I was promised by remain [/I]

So March 2019?

Ninfan fits quite nicely in those angry winners.

Ninfan needs to learn the difference between a promise and a forecast, and between voting to leave, activating A50 and actually leaving. But that might not suit his twisted view of the world.

Ninfan fits quite nicely in those angry winners.

And after my teachers told me I'd never amount to anything more than just another frustrated loser...

Told you all before, you get your £350 million just after I get that complete collapse of western political civilisation that I was promised by remain

I don't recall that promise being made by remain, but no doubt you will provide an authoritative reference.

Ninfan needs to learn the difference between a promise and a forecast

I don't recall that promise being made by remain

Perhaps you could refer me to where leave [u]promised[/u] £350m to the NHS

#hoistedbyyourownpetard

Told you all before, you get your £350 million just after I get that complete collapse of western political civilisation that I was promised by remain

🙂

DrJ we had a whole thread of ridiculous Remain Amageddon predictions. Shouldn't we have had our punishment budget by now btw ?

DrJ we had a whole thread of ridiculous Remain Amageddon predictions.

Cool. Then it will be no problem to provide me with the reference?

and those who benefitted least from it voted [s]for change[/s] to make everyone worse off.

sadly it'll hit them the worst, blaming Brussles for Westminster's failings at the hands of 30 years of rightwing government was always going to lead to more disapointment down the road

and weve had our punishment budget

well those at the bottom have, just like every punishment budget that has been meted out in the name of austerity for the past 6 years, the investment in communities, education, social care healthcare, council funding still wont happen

Perhaps you could refer me to where leave promised £350m to the NHS

As soon as you point me to the place I claimed it was "promised"?

#hoistedbyyourownpetard

Certainly, here's you referring directly to the £350m for the NHS as a promise:

[b]DrJ - Member[/b]
That 10bn saving was all for the NHS wasn't it? Don't remember anything about spending it on lawyers. No buses painted with "Leave the EU so we can pay lawyers".

Anyway, speaking of that NHS promise
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

POSTED 3 MONTHS AGO # REPORT-POST SHARE2

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/281#post-7951393

[img] [/img]

we all know it was a promise/pledge/suggestion

thats what VL said they would do

turns out it was a Lie/fallacy/misdirection/joke

whatevs !

the reality is less money and pssibly less staff for the NHS as our population ages 😯

ninfan ...just another frustrated loser...

Well you managed to hold onto the frustration at least...

Now then, on to respecting voters wishes. If you accept the argument that as 51.9% voted to leave the EU and therefore we should, then there are some implications in your principled stance. We do not know whether they wanted to stay in the customs union / single market / economic area, because we didn't ask them. However we do know that the 48.1% do want to stay in such a market arrangement because that is inherent in staying in the EU.
Thus if we are flatly respecting voters wishes, then it is (regrettably and unfortunately) leave the EU, but (a little bit of good news) remain in the customs union / single market / economic area in some form. Which I accept probably means freedom movement of labour - but as that wasn't on the voting slip, that shouldn't be a problem.

All voters respected. Job done.

And now Fox is starting to make noises that would allow that. Davies and BoJo already have. Hmmm...

Certainly, here's you referring directly to the £350m for the NHS as a promise:

Clutching at straws!!

[img] [/img]

Ninfan

We send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead

Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week

Close enough to promises. They said what they were going to do. You are playing with semantics.

Remain did not say they were going to trash the economy. They forecast that after A50 was triggered the economy would go downhill, which assuming A50 led to an exit of the EU, would significantly hurt our economy and jobs in the medium term.

Bit different - but hey, if you want to keep your blinkers on who am I to stop you.

(Incidentally as I recall UKIP referred to the £350m as an ill advised promise that they didn't make)

Sorry Doctor, which part of you referring to the £350m to the NHS as "that NHS promise" is you not, in fact, claiming that it was a promise?

#post-truth-politics

Close enough to promises

Right, so it therefore [i]was[/i] in fact a promise, despite not actually using the word promise, although DrJ wasn't [i]actually[/i] referring to it as a promise when he specifically called it a promise.

Strange place the remain camp isn't it?

Perhaps you could refer me to where leave promised £350m to the NHS

It seems the European Army was one of the main things on the agenda at the recent summit. Farage at European Parliament

It seems the European Army was one of the main things on the agenda at the recent summit. Farage at European Parliament

Desperate use of semantics by ninfan are a pretty good example of how Leave in general are struggling to deliver on their promises, and why the right wing media and prominent brexiters are full of such bitterness towards us remoaners.
It's obvious that somehow we are at fault for Brexit betraying those who voted for it.

It's OK we can veto an EU army, oh, no we can't coz Little Britain will have no influence in the EU after Brexit

#Fakecontrol

Leave in general are struggling to deliver on their promises,

What promises exactly?

Like IGM said in his swipe against me, there's a difference between a promise and a forecast... well, there's also a difference between a promise and a wish, desire, goal, preference or target. However the remoaners, like everyone else, want to have their cake and eat it - everything that doesn't happen is an embarrassing climbdown or broken promise, everything bad that happens is 'because of Brexit' and every ridiculous half baked prediction they made that doesn't come true is 'because Brexit hasn't actually happened yet'

It's sheer childishness and cherry picking because, just for once, they didn't get their own way, and I think it's 'king hilarious to sit pointing out their own hypocrisy when they can't even admit to themselves that they are being as childish, alarmist and reactionary as they were to the worst of Donald Trumps perfectly crafted leftie-trolling rhetoric 😀

Edit:

It's OK we can veto an EU army

It's sheer childishness and cherry picking

I'll stop when they do 😆

But you started it! 😛

Strange place the remain camp isn't it?

Not half as strange as a place where people write stuff on buses and drive them around the country and then claim it was ... what? a passing notion? a fanciful whim?

Not half as strange as a place where people write stuff on buses and drive them around the country and then claim it was ... what? a passing notion? a fanciful whim?

No, a promise wasn't it? You said as much here remember:> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/page/281#post-7951393 <

Ninfan - not sure it's a swipe really. I was just pointing out your equating of forecasts (over which one has no direct control) and promises, pledges, wishes, desires, preferences etc where (in this case at least, seeing as we now have a self proclaimed Brexiteer PM - "we're all Brexiteers now" I think she said) one does have control.

Equating these two things is clearly nonsense - especially as in the case of the economic forecasts everyone is agreed that it is not a question of if they will come to pass, merely the timing and degree of negative impact. Even jamba has said he expects to see nothing good economically for ten years / until he's retired. And by that time we will never actually be able to tell if we would have been better off staying in.

If I choose to have a swipe it will be far nastier not the simple factual piece I did above.

Can anyone penetrate ninfans bubble of denial?

If I rhyme it will it get through?

A bus sized lie you can't deny
Though it's funny to watch the brexies try
'It wasnt a promise' sounds rather feeble
But point it out and without a doubt youre an enemy of the people.

😉

Not half as strange as a place where people write stuff on buses and drive them around the country and then claim it was ... what? a passing notion

And if that's now being denied then they are denying one of the main reasons they had for leaving.

Zero logic.

The whole campaign was founded on fumes. An ideology without weight.

The whole campaign was founded on fumes. An ideology with weight.

It takes a real man to admit that they've made a mistake

Absolutely.

The desire to keep peddling misinformation around without reflection beggers belief. I've yet to see any of the usual suspects say this could turn out to be worse than initially thought.

See, that's where it gets messy... Because the nutters in the remain camp predicted fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes… The dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria... Well, pretty much no matter what happens the nutters in the leave camp will say "Look, no fire and brimstone, it's been a great success".

That's their metric for success- do better than the most hysterical of all the remain claims. Hurrah.

Quite funny really and as said earlier, a perfect match for the angry winners.

I see Nissan have started making noises about Brexit and impacts on investment again. Given we thought that one was sorted, I wonder what's annoyed them.

[i]See, that's where it gets messy... Because the nutters in the remain camp predicted fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes… The dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria... Well, pretty much no matter what happens the nutters in the leave camp will say "Look, no fire and brimstone, it's been a great success". [/I]

For the millionth time, we've not left yet!

We've haven't promised Nissan anything @igm except we are committed to free trade

On the £363m gross weekly contribution .. let's have a sweepstake as to what the number will be by 2019. I'll go for £450m

For the whining about £350m please read the Brexit analysis I've linked to. All you are doing is bring the debate back again and again to a massive Vote Leave Take Control strong point, our budget contribution. It matters not whether it's a £150m, £200m, £350m or more ... it's all too much and we cannot control the amount

That's their metric for success- do better than the most hysterical of all the remain claims. Hurrah.

I think that many brexit voters go far beyond that, their metric for success is how much the remainders and 'haves' lose and suffer. Sure, they may suffer in the process too, but like the Russians their mentality is that they are used to suffering anyway, they take pride in it. As I said on here months ago, they are perfect happy to, indeed take a perverse pride in, steering the whole thing into the ground just to hear the screams of terror of the people who spent years ignoring their plight.

For the millionth time, we've not left yet!

But who is more frightened about what they might lose? You or them?

"But can't you see, you're shitting all over yourselves too" you cry
"Yeah, but we've been covered in shit before" they reply

jambalaya - Member

except we are committed to free trade

Does Brexit mean stopping the endless government subsidies for badly performing businesses that would fold if they were opened up to more efficient foreign competition?

We've haven't promised Nissan anything @igm except we are committed to free trade

For the whining about £350m please read the Brexit analysis I've linked to. All you are doing is bring the debate back again and again to a massive Vote Leave Take Control strong point, our budget contribution. It matters not whether it's a £150m, £200m, £350m or more ... it's all too much and we cannot control the amount

I think that many brexit voters go far beyond that, their metric for success is how much the remainders and 'haves' lose and suffer. Sure, they may suffer in the process too, but like the Russians their mentality is that they are used to suffering anyway, they take pride in it. As I said on here months ago, they are perfect happy to, indeed take a perverse pride in, steering the whole thing into the ground just to hear the screams of terror of the people who spent years ignoring their plight.

What a stupid comment - once they have 'steered it into the ground' then what?

Nissan are merging some platforms with Renault and mitsubishi for their electric cars .

Their profits might have increased in the Uk last year but production numbers are down . They know that it will take years for the uk to exit the EU . and when that happens , it will be time for new platforms and Sunderland will be gone .

What a stupid comment - once they have 'steered it into the ground' then what?

You think it's not true?

They don't care what happens next - they care far more about how much pain it causes you

We've haven't promised Nissan anything @igm except we are committed to free trade

Quite. Given the audit office laddie saying something along those lines it may simply be that Nissan are reminding the government what 'free trade' means to them.

Of course I wasn't privileged enough to sit in on the meetings so it's all just speculation.

PS - the point about the £350m isn't whether it was £1000bn or £1.50, it was the leaver campaign said "let's spend it on the NHS", they are to all intents and purposes in power and they haven't done it - making them liars. Whether it was a lie in the first place (it was of course) is neither here nor there.

they are to all intents and purposes in power and they haven't done it - making them liars.

For the millionth time, we've not left yet!

ninfan - Member
They don't care what happens next - they care far more about how much pain it causes you

Agreed. Except of course Brexit has been good for me personally (well financially anyway).

And of course you just made a really good argument for ignoring the referendum as by your definition here it had nothing to do with leaving the EU - rather it was about the have nots taking pot shots at the haves. Happy to redress the balance but not by taking everyone to the lowest.

Fair enough ninfan. Want a small wager on whether they're going go to it? Going to be difficult seeing as how the money doesn't exist.

Double or quits on the complete collapse of western political civilisation?

Never saw that one except from Brexies. Sorry

It will happen of course. Civilisations rise and fall.

I wonder why brexiters are so desperate to make us all forget about this.....
[img] [/img]

Is it because they know that kind of cast iron promise can come back to bite you in the arse?

[img] [/img]

Ah, not just a promise, but a [i]cast iron[/i] promise now?

Like the One the Labour Party promised us before signing the [s]EU constitution[/s] Lisbon treaty I presume?

Of course, the weren't the only ones:

[img] [/img]

Double or quits on the complete collapse of western political civilisation?

breaking point ?

you dont like that bus , dont you Ninfan ? 😆

diverting the question once again .

Of course, the weren't the only ones:

You think it's not true?

I know its not true - all aspiring to be 'haves' one way or the other.

Won't cause me a moments 'pain'.

Ah, not just a promise, but a cast iron promise now

What is your interpretation of that bus with those words on the side?

They obviously thought it important enough to headline the campaign with. Is it not important now? Are you telling us it's not going to happen?

I'm losing sight of which way around the denial works.

@cchris2lou - I love the bus, I've gone on record here pointing out that it was a genius idea, as it kept the remain campaign constantly arguing and repeating the message over and over again that the UK sent too much money to the EU, the exact figure was irrelevant to most

Edit: What is your interpretation of that bus with those words on the side?

I've said it before on here, the deliberate application of an officially published government figure of the gross amount of UK payments to the EU, without the supporting caveats that some thought were necessary because they realised just how bloody damaging it was to their case, and thus regretted ever publishing in the first place.

It wasn't a lie, it was just an official figure applied in a creative and ingenious matter that successfully highlighted the argument over just how much money we actually did hand to the EU every year.

Genius

Unless they were foolish enough to write it on an Edstone or a Bus

Similarly Cameron's cast iron guarantee to hold a referendum to try and fend off Europhobes didn't pan out so well for our greatest Prime Ministerial looser

so answer the question , are the Leavers going to spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS , Yes or No ?

love the bus, I've gone on record here pointing out that it was a genius idea, as it kept the remain campaign constantly arguing and repeating the message over and over again that the UK sent too much money to the EU, the exact figure was irrelevant to most

It's okay to be inaccurate or lie then just to make a point? It's okay to mislead the electorate?

The implications of that are astonishing.

I think Ninfan would say its doesn't matter it was just a means to an end.

It's okay to be inaccurate or lie then just to make a point?

As I pointed out, it wasn't inaccurate or a lie, it was the officially published gross figure for How much money we gave the EU, it just wasn't pointed out with the accompanying caveats that some thought were necessary.

It's okay to mislead the electorate?

Tell me a politician that doesn't?

Given that the entirety of the UK's entry into the EU project was, arguably, under the misdirection that we were joining a purely economic based free trade agreement rather than a political project towards ever closer union, then I'd say those who live in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.

I think Ninfan would say its doesn't matter it was just a means to an end.

Nope, I'd say that both sides were as bad as each other - and that you wouldn't have been complaining about any of the more spurious claims made by remain if you had won.

Ninfan you are missing the point
Cleggs tuition fees pledge was a genius idea too it helped the limps cash in on the student vote, and get them into power for the first time in a generation.
Ultimately it destroyed cleggs reputation and is a millstone for the party.

When Brexit fails to bring extra money for the NHS, gives us Jambys 10 years of less money infact.... Well the Brexies will have to face that music

cchris2lou - Member
so answer the question , are the Leavers going to spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS , Yes or No ?

Yes, once we have stopped paying into EU system.

At the moment we are still paying so EU better be quick to grab whatever they can from UK because once we stop paying into EU the bureaucrats will just have to tax the EU nations more ...

Really? Where did you hear that.

wrong log in . try again .

slowoldman - Member
Really? Where did you hear that.

Why do you think otherwise?

Yes, that is the case once we stop paying into EU.

We won't stop paying into Europe or the EU, ERASMUS, ESA,ITER, European Patent Office, Customs Union, Single Market,Horizon 2020. (Or are you suggesting we become North Korea and shoot of all ties to the world?)

You were lied to chewk all these things are worth paying into

Just like you thought Trump would drain the swamp of Goldman Sachs....

Kimbers has a point Chewkw. You were conned, hoodwinked, played for a fool, and if your background is anything like you suggest (you already know I doubt that) then you're the kind of person who will end up paying.

edit CBA

Well the Brexies will have to face that music

No they won't, they can each say that Leave wasn't a party, there was not a manifesto, there were no policies, no promises, nothing to take the blame for. Genius really, they could say anything and never be held to account for those things at the ballet box ever again. They can sit back and watch the civil service stuggling on trying to implement policies that have never appeared in a manifesto, with no direction other than 'not in the EU'. All suggestions and hints at what that might mean have already blown away in the wind… they'll be forgotton by 2020… ancient history… they'll be far more pressing concerns by then. Of course, you can't talk about those concerns yet… without 'project fear' and 'talking down' being thrown about. Just get on with it.

no direction other than 'not in the EU'

What more direction do you need?

What more direction do you need?

We've had the IMF, OECD, Osbourne, Cameron (and Niall Ferguson) all eat humble pie .. I wonder what it will take for the Remainers here to realise what a good decision a Leave vote was ?