[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Or manipulative voters. How many people tell the truth to pollers? I don't, I take the Mickey. Anyone who phones me at home without me having given them my number is fair game, they fall into the same category as fraudsters, PV panel salesmen... . Madame has no idea how her colleagues vote so why would they tell the pollsters?

Something needs to be done about what I think is manipulative polling

If it is "manipulative polling" then its main intent seems to be to lull opponents (e.g. Jupe/Clinton/Remain voters) into a false sense of security.

But really I don't think it is that orchestrated. I think it is just uncertain and changing political climates that the historic polling models are not coping with very well.

Chewkw seems that karma is slowly working-
Promises to Nissan (and many more)
Transitional Periods
Big finance "holds gun to PMs head"
Going quite nicely
I think Trump will be out before we even get close

[img] [/img]

@igm taking a detox is a good idea

Absolutely. There's only so much desperate nonsense from Chewkw that a sane man can take in one go.

Not sure why the remainders keep thinking they can change their fate.

The will of the people!

Thanks, but chewkw needs to tell me for the good of his soul. I'm not convinced that he undestands the process involved in UK politics.

Just for the hell of it, tell me how the June referendum occurred and exactly why that process can't be repeated. Indulge me.

It can be

You just need to wait for the next general election and vote in a government that promises a new referendum on EU membership, and to abide by the results.

You just need to wait for the next general election and vote in a government that promises a new referendum on EU membership, and to abide by the results.

Why would any government promise to abide by the results?

captainsasquatch - Member

Not sure why the remainders keep thinking they can change their fate.

Just for the hell of it, tell me how the June referendum occurred and exactly why that process can't be repeated. Indulge me.

Jamba - Member
@kimbers my guess is the Corporation Tax play is to throw the gauntlet down to EU/Ireland/Luxembourg.

That's what it feels like, but this is playing with fire!

If the tax base goes down then government spending will surely follow. And the desperate and forgotten will have even fewer crumbs of comfort to hang on to.

Yea, I am all for that. Imagine if the remainders do as told then there would be a whole lot of boredom. In the meantime it's our turn to slowly squeeze the remainders ...

captainsasquatch - Member
And that's the answer folks!
Must make you proud ninfan, knowing that the leave vote is made up of such intelligent folk. More ing.

Must make you proud ninfan, knowing that the leave vote is made up of such intelligent folk. More ing.

Well, it could be worse:

Well, it could be worse:

Speak for yourself
File blocker exists because he does

EDIT to your edit: I dont embrace,endorse nor approve the racist overtones expressed by the poster

File blocker exists because he does

nah I nearly mentioned the overtones in my post but felt it ruined my punchline, such that it was.

You just need to wait for the next general election and vote in a government that promises a new referendum on EU membership, and to abide by the results.

Why ? Uturn Theresa may turn again, might end up being the best of a bad lot.

[i]EDIT to your edit: I dont embrace,endorse nor approve the racist overtones expressed by the poster [/I]

Racist? No, Xenophobic.

Racist? No, Xenophobic.

As per the JC thread coming to fhe Remainers rescue are ...

Tony Blair and Nick Clegg funded in part by Tony and Richard Branson (£25k so that will pay for one researcher), offices rented and retired Blairites are coming along for the ride 😯 😯 😯

@oldnpastit my 2p is that companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, Uber, Apple, Starbucks etc have shown that the new corporate model doesn't need to pay corporation tax to be successful (shareholders are happy not to receive dividens if price goes up so no need to repatriate profits and pay tax just keep it all offshore). It's not beyond the realms of possibility that corporate tax receipts drop towards zero anyway. I am against this but Govts around the world seem powerless to do anything about it.

Just for the hell of it, tell me how the June referendum occurred and exactly why that process can't be repeated. Indulge me.

You are both Alex Salmond and Nicola Strugeon and I claim my barrell of oil for $110 (for ever and ever as you'll keep discovering more) 🙂

You are both Alex Salmond and Nicola Strugeon and I claim my barrell of oil for $110 (for ever and ever as you'll keep discovering more)

@oldnpastit my 2p is that companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, Uber, Apple, Starbucks etc have shown that the new corporate model doesn't need to pay corporation tax to be successful (shareholders are happy not to receive dividens if price goes up so no need to repatriate profits and pay tax just keep it all offshore). It's not beyond the realms of possibility that corporate tax receipts drop towards zero anyway. I am against this but Govts around the world seem powerless to do anything about it.

You're not the first to suggest that sort of thing. And there's probably a fair amount of truth in it. Until the gearing becomes embarrassing as it has done some places.

I can't see how May could justify doing Brexit at all if the polls keep rolling in and support for remain increases. How can you **** the economy in the name of the will of the people when it's not even the will of the people any more?

You know what I think of polls. Remain biased press comissioning polls to generate more clicks and ad revenue. The only poll that mattered on Brexit was on June 23rd, 2016.

igm companies I mentioned aren't really geared, just keep the un/low taxed profits offshore maybe make an aquisition or two and stock price goes up accordingly. In the "old days" companies used debt to reduce tax bill and pay dividends but with interest rates so low that doesn't really work anymore.

The only poll that mattered on Brexit was on June 23rd, 2016.

You know what I think of polls

Sure, a few polls with a close margin, you can ignore them. But what if there's lots of polls, with a growing margin?

The only poll that mattered on Brexit was on June 23rd, 2016.

So why not run another? Why can't we ask again now that we know more about it? What are you afraid of? The will of the pepole?

Now we have some indication of what actual Brexit might actually mean, we should probably have another referendum. The will of the people should not be ignored after all!

now it's in the collins dictionary there is no longer any excuse for ambiguity as to its meaning:

brexit, n: see brexit

But what if there's lots of polls

Isn't that what got us in to this mess in the first place?

Isn't that what got us in to this mess in the first place?

Jamba - regarding gearing in the traditional sense and those companies I probably wouldn't disagree, but I can think of some others where I might have some level of knowledge and even spoken to the finance directors about gearing, retaining cash / profit in one jurisdiction or another and the like. There are still some things it works for.

As for Brexit, we can all take comfort that "Brexit means Brexit" so whatever we do however light a touch is made to our relationship with our fellow EU members, that will be Brexit and the Brexmanics can go home happy, because Brexit means Brexit.

Of course a second referendum is the sensible answer - but May is beholden to the eurosceptics in her party so cannot do this.
It would be perfectly possible to have another referendum saying " we thought we could negotiate a deal. We can't therefore we believe leaving the EU is bad for the country. Now wwe know these facts lets vote again"

As an aside - and remeber we haven't actually left yet - The UK saw $1.5tn (£1.2tn) wiped off its wealth during 2016 after the Brexit vote sent the pound tumbling and the stock market into reverse, according to a survey by Credit Suisse.

The only poll that mattered on Brexit was on June 23rd, 2016.

the only one that matters going forward is the commons vote.

True, but in this context potentially disturbing. We had a vote, we got a result (albeit the wrong one IMO), now we have a responsibility to respect it and exercise the will of the people.

It's little wonder that some chose to misunderstand/dislike all aspects of the EU when this notion of "you will keep voting until you get it right" remains a central part of the narrative. No shock when yS supporters play this tired and dubious card, but the rest of us should be above this. Time to move on and make the best of it.

IF there is a second referendum and the EU is perceived to be holding holding a gun to the head of the British/English people I suspected the result wont change.

It's May that is stalling, part of the process is to put forward at least something to convince people there is a plan.
As much as will of the people and all that BS if it's going to send the UK off a financial cliff and cause huge damage then maybe parliament should vote it down. But at this point the only thing stopping Brexit is the PM.

With hindsight the question really read - Should the UK Government prepare a plan to exit the EU when it is in the best interest of the UK to do so. (which is what is actually meant by holding a non binding referendum)
The only path forward is for the PM to put it to Parliament then deal with the consequences.

Endless talk about "there is no plan" is becoming absurd. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Following a referendum result, we have entered a period that has no precedent. No one has chosen to leave the EU before. There is no blueprint. There are multiple scenarios all of which are subject to considerable negation with a diverse range of other parties. Both "sides" have laid out their starting points, the rest is up to negotiation which can only begin (in theory) once A50 has been triggered. There is little extra that can be done now. So pass the Act, trigger A50 and let's get on with working out how to make the best of this bad job.

Endless farting about pretending that there can be certainty in a very uncertain scenario ("a plan") is not going to make it better. The die have been cast....we can't go back.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/11/21/comment-reader-ft-gone-viral-nails-remainerleaver-brexit-row/

So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it’s practically verbatim:

Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?”

Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”

Remainers “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”

Remainers “And do what exactly?”

Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”

Remainers “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”

Remainers “But even you don’t know how!”

Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”

Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?”

Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”

Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts”

Leavers “Remain experts.”

Remainers “There are no Leave experts”

Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”

Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!”

Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”

Remainers “You’re delusional.”

Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”

By Ishtar Ostaria

Why is there this ridiculous let's make the best of a bad job attitude?
Why even take on the bad job when you've now actually got round to reading the job description and it involves eating a massive shit sandwich..

It's little wonder that some chose to misunderstand/dislike all aspects of the EU when this notion of "you will keep voting until you get it right" remains a central part of the narrative. No shock when yS supporters play this tired and dubious card, but the rest of us should be above this. Time to move on and make the best of it.

you might have a point if the vote had been decisive, but 52/48 isn't and when that 52% is only 26% of the population then there is really no mandate to do anything that is damaging to the country.

If the talks can produce a positive way forward, fine go for brexit, if not then as parliament is sovereign they should do what is in the best interests of the country. Anyway Brexit means single market, that is what all the figure head brexiters were claiming during the campaign. It also means immigration because they claimed that as well.

So soft brexit it is, freedom of movement, EEA or Swiss style treaties.

Because that is how (occasionally) democracy works.

correct me if I am wrong memo, but this vote did not have a "convincing majority" (however,me want to define that) element to it. We knew the rules and if folk chose not to participate (a valid option) then that is there choice.

The more this goes on , the more we are seeing excuses being made that are little more than naked attempts to subvert the democratic process. People need to look hard at themselves

cloudnine - the eurosceptics control the tory party to some extent - and the rest of the body politic re terrified of the eurosceptic press,

Thats why - policy is not being made for the best interests of all of the UK but out of fear of the eurosceptic press and fear for losing control of the tory party

teamhurtmore - Member
Endless talk about "there is no plan" is becoming absurd. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Following a referendum result, we have entered a period that has no precedent. No one has chosen to leave the EU before. There is no blueprint

Write Bill
Pass Bill
Implement A50

What could be so difficult?

Endless farting about pretending that there can be certainty in a very uncertain scenario ("a plan") is not going to make it better. The die have been cast....we can't go back.

These are all parts of implementing policy that need laying out and sorting out.
The uncomfortable bit is that regardless of all that the nailed on legal advice is that the PM needs an act of parliament to move forward, it's not like rolling a 6 to get out of jail, you have the tools to make things more.
The obvious reason for not going for the simple route is a complete lack of confidence of a majority.

mrmo - trouble is a soft leave is not going to happen. Its in and stop whinging or out on our own with no access. those are the only two options

Following a referendum result, we have entered a period that has no precedent. No one has chosen to leave the EU before. There is no blueprint

I am not a leaver. I think it's a bad idea, a very bad idea. But I respect the fact that mine is a minority view. That's how democracies work.

The obvious reason for not going for the simple route is a complete lack of confidence of a majority

You can't keep having referendums. We took the simple route before. Why? Because of the mistaken confidence that the majority would vote remain. They didn't......hmmm, the coffee smells strong (if not pleasant)

That's how democracies work.

[I]Why is there this ridiculous let's make the best of a bad job attitude?
Why even take on the bad job when you've now actually got round to reading the job description and it involves eating a massive shit sandwich.. [/I]

Because (based on the Leavers I personally know) most of them struggle with basic concepts of life and something of this magnitude is not only beyond them and they can't even explain what they actually want and certainly can't comprehend the consequences.

Which is why it's left up to us. And I'm going to sit on sidelines and watch while they f*** it up pretty confident that we're not leaving the EU.

Or if we do we'll actually end up in the same position as we are now, just with a far bigger bill/cost as we'll need to pay for access and also compensate all those multi-nationals who CAN 'blackmail' us.

I'm now waiting for a referendum on taxes, should we pay them or not? 😉

Is it a minority view now we know what we know post referendum? who knows.

correct me if I am wrong memo, but this vote did not have a "convincing majority" (however,me want to define that) element to it. We knew the rules and if folk chose not to participate (a valid option) then that is there choice.

Nigel Farage 52/48 is unfinished business.

the rules were advisory, so there is nothing to force Parliament, when the campaign was based on lies, when a large number of those who would be affected were not allowed to vote, when the change may result in breaking of other agreements such as the Good Friday agreement.

Democracy can only work with informed electorate, 40 years of bent bananas is hardly informed. Hitler was a democratically elected Chancellor, what is of interest to people is not always in their interest, that is why we have representatives who are meant to understand the issues and are not in a participatory democracy.

I would assume that banning cyclists riding off road would be voted through in a referendum. Especially if the £350 million pound spent on mountain bikers a week was spent on the nhs instead.
That's democracy. Would we blindly accept it?
How about hanging?
How about banning gays?
How about forced work camps?
My mum would vote for all of them because she is a mail reading ,believing ,bitter old lady.
Britain is full of them.
They have a vote BUT THEY ARE WRONG and must be fought.

Who knows indeed - but you cant keep having votes everytime the wind changes direction. That is merely a recipe for chaos.

Yes - in theory, the vote was advisory and, in theory, we DO need and AoP to repeal a previous one despite what TM might pretent - but would you be playing the "advisory" card if we had won? I doubt it...

We know that Parliament is very spilt - irrespective of party lines - but broadly in favour of remain. This places them at odds with the majority who voted, which is admittedly a conundrum. But they really are divorced from reality/misunderstanding why people voted the way they did, if they think that they can ignore the result.

If democracy can only work with an informed* electorate, then we should abandon it now.

[*unless of course, "informed" means agree with my side of the argument 😯 )

We are all starting to sound like whiney Nats now. Sad, we should be above this.

Because that is how (occasionally) democracy works.

Democracies work how they are designed to work. No democracy that I know of just does everything by majority rule. That'd clearly be stupid.

But I respect the fact that mine is a minority view. That's how democracies work.

Sometimes the majority is wrong. We have safeguards to try and limit this, but they are being ignored.

Ok, so the alternative....we rule by monitor power. Why? Because "we" (the learned minority) understand the issue better than "they" (the great unwashed). Back in you place proles.....listen to your betters.

Welcome back Aristotle....

Ok, so the alternative

We already have an alternative, we have had for what, 300 years.

It's May that wants to bypass it, for some reason I cannot understand.

Can I propose an alternative to hard, soft or no Brexit?

The cokey-hokey Brexit - you know, in, out, in, out, shake it all about.

I think that may really be what it's all about - the the shaking it up bit, that's what the majority leavers really voted for is it not.

So if we quit in a controlled manner they won't be happy, but if we stay and manage to make some changes to people's lives they might well.

Just a though. Remain strong everyone.

My mum has had "darkies " move nearby and my mum is watching her because she will be smuggling immigrants in.
Hopefully I am in the learned minority and hopefully I know better than my mum.
Do not underestimate the amount of ****wits out there.

Zippy - please tell me it was a Mr Obama buying a retirement home - that would be perfect. 😉

As I have pointed out before it is not the leavers (broadly speaking) who have been left with the responsibility of making a Brexit work (as pointed out in Kimbers post above) watching Theresa Mays rather cool reception (and back peddling at the CBI) demonstrates the real fear and lack of confidence in the room and it matters not what the posturing of Jamba, chewkw contains in respect to a new world order it is the people in that room that drive a huge amount of commerce and employment.
Yet once again TM delivered a speech that contained nothing for the working poor or poorly educated/skilled a lot of whom voted leave - in fact it simply contained vague promises of high tech cutting edge business?
The membership of the CBI is in despair at the moment and who can blaim them - this is not the liberal/political elite by the way and below them are thousands of businesses like mine most of whom appeared to vote remain who now function in ignorance at best and sit on (small) war chests rather than invest - oh and if anyone is naive enough to quote current economic performance figures as proof of the opposite needs to go back to school and do GCSE Economics as the impact of that lack of forward investment will not appear for 12 to 18 months (probably longer) then the govt. Will borrow an horrendous amount of money to artificially fill that hole prior/during the next election. None of the above is political it's just simple fiscal reality. The membership of the CBI, Banking, the Nissans etc fully understand this and ultimately they are in charge of investment- this is Theresa Mays catch 22 and she and Mr Hammond understand this but still wish to pander to the rabid right and the knuckle draggers from UKIP and it's this pandering that will prevent a sensible conclusion to thisee debacle.

One of the few leavers left on my facebook:

So your having a heart attack & the paramedic wants to see 2 forms of ID before they treat you ? Or your in a car crash an need hospital treatment but Gotta nip home for passport first .......??

Must resist pointing out the irony....hnnngh

Well put, Oldmanmtb.

So soft brexit it is, freedom of movement, EEA or Swiss style treaties.

Well, yes... in a perfect world. Thats as good as we can realistically expect now that the lunatics have taken over the asylum. But we're demonstrating our traditional national arrogance to presume that thats what they're just going to give us.

Why should they? With the way things are going in the EU, I expect we're about to be used to let everyone else know that you can't have your cake and eat it.

Cheers Boris

[img] [/img]

It's May that wants to bypass it, for some reason I cannot understand.

Benito Mussolini, the founder of fascism, outlines three principles of a fascist philosophy.
1."Everything in the state". The Government is supreme and the country is all-encompasing, and all within it must conform to the ruling body, often a dictator.
2."Nothing outside the state". The country must grow and the implied goal of any fascist nation is to rule the world, and have every human submit to the government.
3."Nothing against the state". Any type of questioning the government is not to be tolerated. If you do not see things our way, you are wrong. If you do not agree with the government, you cannot be allowed to live and taint the minds of the rest of the good citizens.

Good post oldman.

What I don't understand is, if the government can invest in industry post-brexit, why the bloody hell weren't they doing it pre-brexit?

Binners - no chance of a soft exit. Thats very clear from public pronouncements from EU figures. It was only ever a made up option from the xenophobes anyway.

We are all starting to sound like whiney Nats now. Sad, we should be above this.

I don't think it's ever wrong to complain about stupidity, especially when it effects us and our children.

TJ - I thought it was a little more nuanced than that. More, the deal involves the four freedoms or there is no deal. So a soft Brexit may be possible, but only if it is one that is essentially the same as staying.

What I don't understand is, if the government can invest in industry post-brexit, why the bloody hell weren't they doing it pre-brexit?

Ideology innit brov? The state can't interfere in the operation of the market until the market has ****ed it right up and has to be bailed out.

I think this gives us an indication of what this 'the market is king' government thinks is really about to happen - well the less rabid headbanger members of it, anyway - they think this could be another banking crash scale disaster. which needs state intervention to prevent.

Doesn't bode well, does it?

Oh I think it might be bigger than that Binners

igm - yes the 4 freedoms are essential. However as May has rejected freedom of movement then its a hard leave is the only other answer. EEA don't want us in anyway and a Switzerland option would mean full freedom of movement. So out on our ear with nothing is the only thing that can happen

May is a flip-flopper. We'll see what she has actually rejected in time.

One of the few leavers left on my facebook:

That problem exists because of the EU. The one hospital trust asking for ID currently is in Peterborough with a bery high EU population. We pay £650m to other eu countries for treating their citizens, we get back £50m. This is becuase we don't have a system for asking for id. In a French hospital I have to show my NHS card (and/or pay) and my French wife has to show her Cart Vitale ID for any treatment / test etc. UK hospitals don't ask for ID so we don't know who we should be asking for a refund.

CBI wants to continue receiving something for nothing. They don't pay the budget contribution (so eu membership is free) they have free access to markets and effectively an infinite supply of labour inc from very poor countries. Hige scope for tax avoidance jiggery pokey. Jurisdiction of EU courts etc not an issue for them. Alternative means they have to reorganise a bit, maybe spend some money on systems upgrades to deal with tariffs, adjust pricing ? Business isn't run with reference to the medium / long term its all about short term and they want an easy and free of cost life.

"That problem exists because of the EU. The one hospital trust asking for ID currently is in Peterborough with a bery high EU population."

Does health tourism include UK citizens "coming home" for treatment?

If not,it bl00dy well should.

That problem exists because of the EU

No, it exists because of immigration. Which you're in favour of, aren't you?

CBI wants to continue receiving something for nothing

Don't companies pay tax to the UK government? I know some pay very little.

I do womder what the Swiss will do. Their 2014 Referendum against freedom of movement is legally binding on Parliament.

Hard Brexit is nice and simple and imo the country will move on quickly thereafter.

IME most Leavers voted for - no ecj, no EU bureaucrat interference in domestic affairs, no budget confribution, no freedom of movement and ability to negotiate our own trade deals globally. If THE single market or customs union requires any of that then no thanks. The Brexit campaign groups have circulated endless videos of Cameron/Osbourne/Gove/Boris saying a Leave vote meant leaving THE single market. May is offering tariff free access to the UK in return for tariff free access to EU. That is a good deal for both sides. If EU don't want it we will take the £10bn pa in net tariffs we will receive and get on with expanding globally. That money is more than enough to provide a safety net to any negatively impacted sectors.