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So let me get this straight. You're advocating investing hugely in building manufacturing capability, on the basis that it'll be better quality than the Chinese.
Yep, ever since my dissertation and Nissan seem to have carved themselves a nice little niche.
Sounds good. Why do we need to be out of the EU to do ths?
It was in response to GEDA stating that we are weaker in a free trade environment if we can't compete, in EU or outside, it doesn't matter.
We are weaker if we want to preserve jobs, environmental protection, and employment protection and if we want to compete we must be willing to cutting costs somewhere or have a protected market.
GEDA - most (65%) of our international trade is outside the EU and the EU has been a declining partner as it's economy is stagnant
UK imports from the EU are 54% of total imports, a figure that has remained the same from 2000 to 2015. Exports to the EU have declined as you might expect with the decline of North Sea oil and gas.
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Should you not try to implement a new economic strategy while continuing to maintain what works at the moment. Seems a pretty standard way to deal with risk? Who knows if we can become a super hi-tech manufacturer but I do not see the EU holding us back on that account, Germany seem to be quite good at it.
Should you not try to implement a new economic strategy while continuing to maintain what works at the moment.
Well I would say so yes. Suddenly informing your economy that things are going to completely change in 2 years, but not telling them how or putting in place any strategy, well that's pretty frigging stupid isn't it?
Question for Jam and Ninfan: Assuming you're right about Britain being better off out of the EU - don't you think it would be a good idea to come up with a strategy to work towards that to minimise disruption and maximise benefit, rather than simply pulling the plug?
Well I would say so yes. Suddenly informing your economy that things are going to completely change in 2 years, but not telling them how or putting in place any strategy, well that's pretty frigging stupid isn't it?
Those are the rules. You can tell Article 50 was supposed to be a deterrent.
So it has been stated that we can have a glorious future selling high end stuff in a free trade paradise. Can't really see that benefiting the poor, uneducated and left behind that voted for Brexit. Am I being stupid or is the problem that these people are poor, unskilled, few opportunities or examples of how one makes your life better not quick fixes that look easy on paper but in reality are a bit harder to carry out. I give you some select quotes from the UKIP manifesto as exhibit a:
Leave the EU and save £55 million
every day
Drop the EU Landfill Directive to cut
refuse disposal costs
Close unnecessary central government
departments and quangos
End wasteful EU and UK subsidies to
‘renewable energy scams’, such as wind
turbines and solar farms
Oppose EU directives adding artificial and
detrimental costs
The first figure I came across is 44% of our trade is with the eu. That must mean we do 54% with the rest of the world. How many of those companies are based here due to getting access to the EU markets and the rest of the world?
GEDA you are correct (as is Edukator) it is 44/56 but the EU component has been declining as the EU has stagnated post financial crises and imo will get much worse as the eurozone crises returns to the fore and gets dealt with. My point is that 44% of trade doesn't dissapear - it may be subject to tariffs and all 100% of our trade is now more attractive due to the decline in the £. China has held down its fx rate for decades and Germany beenfits from a weaker € than would be the fx rate for the D-Mark
The delay in A50 has allowed business to think more about their plans for different scenarios come 2019, hence the 9 months from June 2016 to A50 in March 2017.
No doubt the creation of the A50 mechanism via Lisbon Treaty has a pro EU bias, that's the political nature of the beast make it difficult to leave the project. I mean how very dare anyone reject us ?
So it has been stated that [b]we can have a glorious future selling high end stuff[/b] in a free trade paradise.
Was there a mention of high end stuff?
Am I being stupid
I'm saying nothing.
Are you a gold fish?
Or learn how to sell quality instead of cheap crap. There's a market for quality too.
The delay in A50 has allowed business to think more about their plans for different scenarios come 2019, hence the 9 months from June 2016 to A50 in March 2017.
Hahaha.. 2.5 years.. 🙂
Do you actually work in business at all?
Has your bank planned for the demise of the euro ? Answer yes as the SFA requires it. I worked on the "end of the euro" planning project back in 2010. Businesses are pretty adept at acting when they have to.
Are you a gold fish?
Quality =/= high end. I'll take a gold star though. Did you miss the bit about the dissertation too? Would you consider Nissan to be high end? Skoda to be high end? They are brands known for high quality though.
I wouldn't, on the other hand, call Maserati quality in spite of the high end price tag. They do have a reputation for breaking down a lot.
Planning for new regulations is one thing. I bet all the businesses are doing jumps for joy that they have to do yet more changes to support laws that will have no benefit financially. Planning for a brand new economic strategy takes decades. Plus the fact that current economic theory of leaving everything to the market does not support or even believe in state interference. (Not that China and Germany believe in that way of doing things)
Funnily enough at the Remembrance service we attended the vicar talked about Trump, Brexit and the rise of divisiveness and hate.
It really annoys me when this happens.
Planning for a brand new economic strategy takes decades.
Amazon, Google, Facebook ?
We are speaking about incorprating WTO tariffs (avg 3%), our currency and the oil price have moved more in the last 2 years, it's not rocket science. Any business which exports globally already manages for tariffs.
Do you think VW are telling the German Government they need more time for Brexit as they haven't worked out how to deal with it for exports to the UK ?
Anyone else hear this song every time you see Jam's username?
Anyway:
Amazon, Google, Facebook ?
No. SMEs that use European parters or sell to Europe with small margins. Products that might have less of a of a market elsewhere.
Do you think VW are telling the German Government they need more time for Brexit as they haven't worked out how to deal with it for exports to the UK ?
No but I bet they are making contingency plans for lost sales due to prices going up due to Brexit
Jamba - am I right that you've only worked in services (finance?) not industry?
I think you are underestimating the psychological impact, Jamba. Time will tell. There are a whole lot of people in the EU who suddenly feel a little less well disposed towards doing business with the UK even though it has become temporarily cheaper. They know that once the increased price of imports hits the UK the price advantage will be eroded by inflation and you are doing business with a non-EU state with a volatile foreign currency.
Trust is a very important and that is in short supply. Good will too. Ford, GM and Peugeot all claim to have lost two to three digit millions due to the Brexit. When they readjust their capacity it's going to be very tempting to shut factories in leave towns.
I think the "special relationship" will be based on revenge in the years to come.
If I were a company right now I'd not touch the UK with a bargepole. No-one's got any idea what's going to happen to it - not even its government. A lot of investment is going to go elsewhere even if Brexit gets scrapped - because if it does it'll take several years.
Trust is a very important and that is in short supply.
He's right. What else is May likely to do for populist reasons that'll knacker yet more businesses?
We all need to step back and look at this from a much lower level, all this discussion about WTO tariffs and exchange rates is a little lost on the more down to earth brexit voters - their needs are simple just take Bob from Hartlepool he wants all the immigrants sending home and he fully expects £36k a year +bonus + pension for a 35 hour week driving his fork lift - all within 3 years from now.
None of the above discussion on euro fiscal global fiscal bollocks has not a jot of value to Bob who voted leave (he actually doesn't believe it's real just like climate change is made up) this is your problem so solve it please Jamba and Ninfan..
igm software development then banking / asset management. As I said if you are a manufacturer your products are much more competitve today than they where in May.
Edukator when fhe eurozone blows up I have no doubt Brexit will be blamed. I mean it was all going so well right ?
I am a hard nosed business person, people buy from us as they like the product and price not because we are their friend. If Europe starts any sort of anti UK attidue it is they who have plenty to lose as we run such a large trade deficit. Also you forget there are many in the EU who are very disatisfied with it. Just wait till the Germans have to find another €5bn pa (?) and the French €3bn pa to make up the budget shortfall from the UK leaving. I think their eire will against Brussels. I have been quite surprised how many of my poltically active French in-laws haven't grasped this future cost and it's not being discussed innthe media
Indeed nissan managed for it by getting an assurance forom the govt there would be none or they would **** offAny business which exports globally already manages for tariffs.
if only reality reflected your optimism
,
incorprating WTO tariffs (avg 3%)
Source please as reads like a total [s]lie [/s]jambyfact
Let's call this the Hartlepool conundrum
Answers to the following please-
1. What business is going to arrive in Hartlepool in the next 3 years that offers mass employment
2. Will the above business pay £36k to Bob as a semi skilled (at best individual)
3. Who is going to invest
oldman, no-one gives a shit about Bob, they just want to harness his frustration as a vote for their neolibertarian agenda. There will still be plenty of foreigners to blame when his 36k job doesn't appear, and Bob will quite possibly still be deluded enough to vote for more of the same. Even if he isn't, that's far off in the future.
[url= https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/oranges-litmus-test/ ]https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/oranges-litmus-test/[/url]
no idea where 3% comes from, according to the WTO on page 3 it is 9%? and varies massively
> Funnily enough at the Remembrance service we attended the vicar talked about Trump, Brexit and the rise of divisiveness and hate.It really annoys me when this happens.
What you mean religious leaders speaking out against hatred & intolerance and cheekily offering an alternative message of compassion, empathy, and understanding?
Bastards!
She even did the old Edmund Burke "good men to do nothing" quote.
Oldman, how old is Bob? Does he have an issue with shooting "them", we are going to need soldiers to suppress the uprising when the shit hits the fan and things don't magically get better.
Objectively the pound is more likely to fail than the Euro. Have you looked at the UK's balance of payments? Yes, you have, and it's more of a problem for the UK than Europe
I'm not expecting any country to make up the UK's budget contribution. I'm expecting the trade tariffs or one-off annual right to trade payment to be greater - see Norway or Switzerland.
Many in the EU are dissatisfied with it, and many of those want reform not out. I expect politicians will do everything in their power to make sure the citizens of Europe see the Brexit as a failure; an example of what not to do.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37921598 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37921598[/url]
can't blame them really, how many years did they fight to evict the UK from French soil and now they have given some territory away and get treated like crap for it.
and before anyone mentions elections, Brexit means Brexit, if the French electorate are promised that the UK is evicted from French soil, Joan of Arc anyone? why would they to follow it through?
Hold on ,no one needs to worry about those blips ^^^^^^^ Enola will negotiate them all away.
THEY NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEMI expect politicians will do everything in their power to make sure the citizens of Europe see the Brexit as a failure; an example of what not to do.
Of course they will they were always going to do this
Brexiters will still be able to blame the EU
The 3% figure is a classic jambafact
Post truth politics is depressing like that.
Unless he's looked at our exports to the EU and calculated the % on each type and then done the maths, allowing for the tartifs on imported materials to build/ produce/ them
Here are our to 10 exports ( excluding services)
What sort of tartifs would they gave under WTO?
The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2015. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machines, engines, pumps: US$63.9 billion (13.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $53 billion (11.5%)
Vehicles: $50.7 billion (11%)
Pharmaceuticals: $36 billion (7.8%)
Oil: $33.2 billion (7.2%)
Electronic equipment: $29 billion (6.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $18.9 billion (4.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $18.4 billion (4%)
Organic chemicals: $14 billion (3%)
Plastics: $11.8 billion (2.6%)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-exports/
Bobs obese got diabetes and is 45 smokes 20 a day- the fact he is obese and has diabetes is someone's else's fault apparently
Nobody answers my questions
Bobs obese got diabetes and is 45 smokes 20 a day- the fact he is obese and has diabetes is someone's else's fault apparently
Oh he is a benefit claimant!!! To the tower with him! scum, bet he's got a 55inch TV has holidays to Spain every week, has a free car, lives in a mansion, and even plays football at the weekend, probably a Muslim as well isn't he!!!! and all paid for by the Tax Payer......
even a stopped clock is right twice a dayThe 3% figure is a classic jambafact
[b]There is no "right", only forceful opinion.[/b]
[ I'm trying to get myself into the spirt of 2016 fully. ]
Sadly mrmo Bob is real (not called Bob I change his name to protect the ignorant) he does drive a fork lift and earns about £18k with overtime he was always banging on at me down the pub about how he has worked as hard as me (known each other since we were kids) all his life and has * all - he thinks turning up 5 days a week is working hard but he ho that's life. The frightening thing about him is that we came from virtually identical backgrounds - only difference was i continued to educate myself after my apprenticeship (he was a time served plater) and the economy simply over took him - the thing that makes my jaw drop is his absolute belief that the *s he voted for in Brexit will look after him yet every part of his working life should tell him otherwise? Nothing I can say to him has the slightest impact on this belief - maybe he's really Chewkw? He stopped one of his kids going to Uni this year a straight A student. It actually really upsets me to watch it.
i shouldn't joke, but i know plenty like him.
There is only one constant in life, change, for some this is a very hard fact to grasp. I am not saying it is easy, it isn't, to have certainties pulled from under you. To see the world you know change.
But you can't fight it, you can adapt or lash out.
One very telling fact, the worst performing demographic in our schools is white working class boys. The era when they would have been used as canon fodder, in ship yards, coal mines etc has gone. Now, they are pointless! and it isn't a good place to be.
The elephant in the euro closet is not Brexit its Lepen
I live eat and sleep with poor French and they are to a man voting Lepen IF she gets in Europe is over, and after Trump that is looking a lot more possible.
PS I voted remain but I am telling it like I see it every one has underestimated how pissed off the poor are.
I expect politicians will do everything in their power to make sure the citizens of Europe see the Brexit as a failure; an example of what not to do.
Again, you keep saying these things as if they are wrong or bad. I find this awfully confusing.
The origin of the EU was to have trading partners where the connection of trade was seen as stronger than the divisions of war. And it has been incredibly successful. Thbe right wing and Brexit seems to want to drive a wedge in that peace. There is no denying that the nation is divided and it seems that Jamba, ninfan and chewkw are happy with these divisions. If Le Pen takes power and there is a increase in support of the right and the far right, I can see this only going one way.
It's not just about the money you muppets!
I agree with Wicki, it's what I keep saying… and so does Jamba… although I see it as a threat, and he somehow sees it as a positive thing… the vote to Leave, and now the Trump win, makes a National Front win in France, and all that can fall from that, a very real prospect.
If I was in a country on the Eastern fringes of Europe, I'd be looking to move my family away from what Russia is planning right now… where I'd feel safe to flee to though, I have no idea.
Serious question over the last 2000 years for how many has Europe not been at war with itself? Maybe historians will look back at the last 50 years as an aberration?
IF she gets in Europe is over, and after Trump that is looking a lot more possible.
If France leave, then it's not over, it'll be rebooted. Basically, like the Roman Empire.
What you mean religious leaders speaking out against hatred & intolerance and cheekily offering an alternative message of compassion, empathy, and understanding?Bastards!
She even did the old Edmund Burke "good men to do nothing" quote
The basic message of a sermon on Remembrance Day should be about remembering those who lost their lives in conflicts, there are plenty of other Sundays they can preach about their often naive world view, however of course they don't get as many people in on those days.
Serious question over the last 2000 years for how many has Europe not been at war with itself? Maybe historians will look back at the last 50 years as an aberration?
Oh great, let's give up getting on with each other and resume the slaughter.
Perhaps we should go along next week and put 4e on Juppé.
The basic message of a sermon on Remembrance Day should be about remembering those who lost their lives in conflicts, there are plenty of other Sundays they can preach about their often naive world view, however of course they don't get as many people in on those days.
Crap, remembrance is pointless unless you are willing to ask why. Why did those people die in those wars? Did they have a personal issue with the Kaiser etc? Or were they doing their duty as told to them by their "betters"
Europe has been led by idiots with personal agendas for far to long, the idea of the nation is something i had hoped had died. But no, like a recurrent cancer it keeps on coming back and the masses keep on failing to see where things lead. Maybe this time it will be different, maybe it won't.
WTO tarrif on cars would be 10%
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-leaving-eu-trade/
So do we have to subsidise Nissan 10% for the 75% of their cars made here that are exported to the eu ?
even if lepen is elected President , her first job will be to name a Prime minister .
he will look at the assemble nationale , where mp sits , and will dissolve it as he wont have a majority of mp .
so France will have election legislative to elect new mp .
if the front national gets enough mp to have a majority , then Lepen ad her PM are in charge and will have full control .
if they don't get a majority , she will sack her PM and will have to name A PM whose party has a majority in the Assemblee .
it will be what we call a cohabitation . ( coalition ) .
Interesting.
The basic message of a sermon on Remembrance Day should be about remembering those who lost their lives in conflicts, there are plenty of other Sundays they can preach about their often naive world view, however of course they don't get as many people in on those days.
Surely the basic message is also about the horror of war, remembering bloody sacrifice and honouring that sacrifice by trying not to let it happen all over again?
Hatred, division and intolerance are the seeds of conflict.
Would't know what they preach about on other Sundays as I'm not a religious type - but I thought she spoke very well about it.
The EU is not completely unrelated to either World War, is it?
Would't know what they preach about on other Sundays as I'm not a religious type - but I thought she spoke very well about it.
+1 anyone who has spent any time looking at modern history can see where division and hate have got us before.
If all you do on remembrance sunday is remember the dead you have missed the point.
I've posted this before on another thread, but here's why it's appropriate to talk about Brexit and Trump on Remeberance Day
The EU is not completely unrelated to either World War, is it?
+ the Franco-Prussian War in 1870.
It's notable how little we're taught about the history of the EU in the UK - the background to its formation and the aims of the founding fathers. As it happens I wrote my final year Uni dissertation on it - France and Germany went to war 3 times in 80 years - millions of men killed, families torn apart (my own great grandfather was German and got hauled back to Germany in WW1 to fight against his own adopted country... screwed my Grandma up for life seeing her father abandon her like that...) economies wrecked and countries just torn apart... but the UK didn't have the same experience as mainland Europe as we were never occupied.
Nothing like the horrors of the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre ]Oradour sur Glane massacre[/url] happened on UK soil - nothing like the WW2 cemeteries with fields and fields of white crosses exist on British soil - so we don't have that visceral understanding of the horrors of those 3 wars and why the founding fathers were so determined to bring Europe so closely together (particularly to contain German nationalism) to stop it ever happening again.
Instead, we whine like children about 'straight bananas' and utterly miss the point that EU is about preventing war more than anything else.
I think it's an utter tragedy that we've not been taught this at school - the endgame being what we're currently seeing - a woefully poorly educated electorate voting against something without having any real idea of its true purpose, which is peace and prevention of war. This lack of education about the EU has made it very easy for various parties to manipulate us...
The only criticism I'd make of the EU at the moment is it's not proven able to stop the rise of the far right across Europe - which really and truely is it's reason for existing...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/14/irish-minister-says-brexit-like-uk-trying-to-divorce-and-keep-all-the-assets
some very telling comments from the brexiters if true. Do as we tell or or .....
And I just thought it'd be worth throwing this into the discussion...
[url= http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/personal-values-brexit-vote/ ]The characteristics of Leave voters[/url]
Disciplining children and whipping sex criminals, keeping the nation safe, protecting social order and skepticism (‘few products live up to the claims of their advertisers…products don’t last as long as they used to’) correlate with Brexit sentiment.
Instead, we whine like children about 'straight bananas' and utterly miss the point that EU is about preventing war more than anything else.
Shelia Hancock was one of the few people who made this point, and strongly, during the referendum build up.
Worth hunting out a video of her contribution to one of the otherwise awful TV debates.
One of the few moments of clarity that I saw/read/heard from either "side".
Well I have been to enough Remembrance Services where members of the congregation, often relatives of or forces personnel themselves, have been deeply upset by an overtly political sermon by some naive priest and in my view that is a fundamental failure of the priest's mission on Remembrance Day. This is especially the case for the Church of England as it is the established church.
I do go to church quite frequently and I will also argue a political point with a priest if I think he is wrong. Fortunately the Church I attend is too sensible for that in the main.
a woefully poorly educated electorate
Bingo.
GCSE Economics should be compulsory, when you have universal suffrage. Along with History (which we dropped for Geography ffs) and preferably philosophy too. Just the basics. Maybe PPE would do.
Fascinating article brooess.
Fox is making up more stories to scare other countries into signing trade agreement ?
GCSE Economics should be compulsory
Don't make people study the dismal science.
Well I have been to enough Remembrance Services where members of the congregation, often relatives of or forces personnel themselves, have been deeply upset by an overtly political sermon by some naive priest and in my view that is a fundamental failure of the priest's mission on Remembrance Day. This is especially the case for the Church of England as it is the established church.
If the dozen or so active soldiers from the horse artillery were deeply upset by it then they didn't show it. Though I don't suppose they would.
It wasn't [i]"an overtly political sermon by some naive priest"[/i] - it was a perfectly reasonable sentiment for less hate and greater understanding and compassion, expressed appropriately, during a service.
And I believe it was Methodist brand God bothering if that matters.
I do go to church quite frequently and I will also argue a political point with a priest if I think he is wrong.
You'd argue that we need less understanding and compassion, [i]more[/i] hatred and intolerance?
I don't think that would be entirely inkeeping with the teachings of that suspiciously white beardy Arab guy that they seem so fond of, but fair enough.
mefty - MemberDon't make people study the dismal science.
Studying [i]science[/i] is good. Studying economics might be good too.
You'd argue that we need less understanding and compassion, more hatred and intolerance?
Did I say that, no, so don't be silly. And condescension generally works better if you are making an intelligent argument.
I think conflating concerns about immigration with intolerance is a pretty political statement. It is notable that the Pope has recognized this recently. You can read about it [url= https://cruxnow.com/commentary/2016/11/04/sweden-pope-francis-becomes-immigration-realist/ ]here [/url].
Studying science is good
I agree but if economics is made compulsory something has to give and it may well be more classic science subjects, which would be a retrograde step.
I was poking fun at economics there. It was very funny- you laugh now!
I was poking fun at economics there.
A pursuit to be encouraged.
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and in truly shocking news...
The report criticises Mrs May, who it says is "acquiring a reputation of drawing in decisions and details to settle matters herself" - an approach it describes as being "unlikely to be sustainable."
The Times says the document also identifies cabinet splits between Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, Brexit Secretary David Davis and International Trade Secretary Liam Fox on one side, and Chancellor Philip Hammond and Business Secretary Greg Clark on the other.
According to the newspaper, the memo said: "Every department has developed a 'bottom-up' plan of what the impact of Brexit could be - and its plan to cope with the 'worst case'.
"Although necessary, this falls considerably short of having a 'government plan for Brexit' because it has no prioritisation and no link to the overall negotiation strategy."
Theresa MayImage copyrightGETTY IMAGES
The memo also suggests the government does not have enough officials to implement Brexit quickly, while departments are developing individual plans resulting in "well over 500 projects".
It estimates an additional 30,000 extra civil servants could be required to meet the workload.
However, our correspondent says money to pay for the extra staff will not be provided in next week's Autumn Statement.
The document also says big businesses could soon "point a gun at the government's head" to secure what they need to maintain jobs and investment.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37983948
I think conflating concerns about immigration with intolerance is a pretty political statement. It is notable that the Pope has recognized this recently.
The Catholic Church being a benchmark for tolerance across the world; I agree.
30000 extra buraucrats? That should please Chewk.
Government response is quite good too, keep head in the sand and make UK great again.
Easy to see why Nissan are happy to keep their factory here, they have been told : We don't know what we doing with Brexit so nothing will happen soon.
'There is no plan' has been the elephant in the room since day 1.
Mefty - people frequently make comments about how our grandfathers generation fought a war against Nazism. Fighting against an ideology that demonised one group of people. I think an ideology that demonises immigrants is fair game on Remembrance Sunday. Concerns about immigration are fine, demonising inmigrants (and let me clear I have not accused you of this) is not - certain elements of the Brexit campaign are exactly the thing some of our grandfathers generation gave their lives fighting against. To ignore that is for their sacrifice to have been in vain.
I know it was posted on the previous page but it's worth highlighting...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948
One throwaway "oh we'll have a referendum" from Dave and that was it. How easy it can be to totally ruin an entire country. Well done Dave.
Dave should speak out, really.
Didn't we previously see a 'budget' for Brexit, and some of us suggested it was missing at least one zero - pretty sure we were told we didn't have a clue...
Dave should speak out, really.
Probably too busy enjoying the multi-millionaire lifestyle with his gold-plated pension.
people frequently make comments about how our grandfathers generation fought a war against Nazism.
In my case, it was my father's.
Concerns about immigration are fine, demonising inmigrants ... - certain elements of the Brexit campaign are exactly the thing some of our grandfathers generation gave their lives fighting against.
I don't disagree that some elements fit this description, but, in my view, this is a small minority. Whatever the truth, there is political disagreement and the church should take great care when broaching such subjects. This is especially the case on Remembrance Day, when in my view political controversy should be avoided.