Forum menu
Ninfan - why are you posting clips of a clown?
Immigration is what May will stick with coz she feels she's on strong ground, (despite her disastrous track record as home sec. 😯 )
It will be the bone she throws the electorate as it becomes apparent that trade negotiatons will produce a shadow of our former in EU position- At least she tried to keep them foreigners out 😉
Of course if the senior Tories can swallow enough pride to go grovelling to Farage he might be able to hook them up with a few tid bits from the orange one.
That's a #leftiefact you can take to the bank
[I]What's that BR? The Tories are going to privatise the NHS and end all benefits?[/I]
No, who said that?
But your voting record and posts on here point to someone reasonably right-wing, yet you're happy to take advantage of the benefits of living in the very type of state you're against - so maybe it's HYPOCRITE!
Here's what Boris Johnson said about retaining access to the single market:
What we want is for Britain to be like many other countries in having free-trade access to the territory covered by the Single Market – but not to be subject to the vast, growing and politically-driven empire of EU law.
So if you believe what Boris Johnson says, then that means that Leave voters might have expected to retain access to the single market.
Of course, no-one believes what BJ says anymore....
Most remainders are out of touch with reality hence cannot accept the alternatives.
Brexit and now President Elect Trump ...
chewkw, I answered your question.
Would you mind answering mine?
[b]chewkw [/b]- Member[b]Most remainders are out of touch with reality [/b]hence cannot accept the alternatives.
Post of the tread. 😆
Why on earth would you think ninfan is miserable ? He is taking the time to put the other side of an argument in an environment which is much more left leaning than the country at large. Just as per the videos posted many STWers are not interested in listening to feedback as for the reason of their loss and imo they will keep on being on the losing side. Their belief is they lost as the other side "lied".
Non EU migration is dominated by highly paid executives (high pay = highly taxed) and students who typically pay a premium to UK/EU students and as such subsidise their education. Both make economic sense, they pay their way and then some. In both categories you have to prove your worth before being granted a visa. Simple and effective.
but basically banning all immigration.
Quite simply Mrs May is absolutely not speaking about banning all immigration. Net flat immigration means 200,000+ new people every year to balance the leavers.
As for a low birth rate and needing immigrants two things, firstly you can achieve that with a system of visa based controlled immigration and secondly that's a ponzi scheme solution as you are not addressing the fundamental issue (that people need to save enough during their working life to support themselves in retirement) in fact all you are doing is making the situation much worse in the longer term.
Le Pen was interesting on Marr today.
Their belief is they lost as the other side "lied".
You say that like it's insignificant.
Jamba - I'm becoming less and less convinced remain has lost. We just need to get peoples voices out there and the win is still there for the taking. And the longer we faff around the easier it will be.
Ninfan, stop being an arsehole. By all means debate but don't be a dick about it. And before you accuse me of whining because you're disagreeing with me, notice I'm not saying this to Jambalaya.
However I will take him up on this:
very high level stats which people rejected as obvious bollix based on what rhey saw with their own eyes.
Are you seriously suggesting that people should disregard researched statistics in favour of a single viewpoint without research?
That is absolutely shockingly poor. I bet you've had enough of experts too haven't you? God forbid anyone actually knows things or tries to find out anything. You'll be trying to tell us the earth is flat next, telling us to look out of the window for proof.
Awful argument, you should be ashamed of yourself for that.
You were right though that it is a political issue, but given the benefits of EU membership, governments should be mitigating any negative effects WITHOUT losing the positives. In other words, they should do some bloody work not just pander to popular opinion.
And yet, for some strange reason, like Jamba and Chewkw, I keep ending up on the winning side.
Well let's wait for the end game.
Just as per the videos posted many STWers are not interested in listening to feedback as for the reason of their loss and imo they will keep on being on the losing side. Their belief is they lost as the other side "lied"
As usual, the leftie intelligentsia spend so much time stuck on transmit that rather than listening, they have to heap bile and derision on anyone who they can't bully into agreeing with them.
Shite, even the unions now agree that immigration and freedom of movement is broken: http://classonline.org.uk/blog/item/len-mccluskey-britain-at-a-crossroads
[i]And we are also, I would argue, past the point where working people can be convinced that the free movement of labour has worked for them, their families, their industries and their communities.Are you seriously suggesting that people should disregard researched statistics in favour of a single viewpoint without research?
It is fine to argue values and perspectives for the middle distance, but if it comes up against the reality of people’s daily experience, these arguments will fail.[/i]
slowoldman - Member
Well let's wait for the end game.
Time line?
Give me a time, when?
When is end the end game?
Questions asked chewkw, I'm expecting answers.
I guess it doesn't work like thsat for you, does it?
Well provisionally March 2019, but that may change. 😆
Ninfan - agreed there's quite a few "stuck on transmit". Two or three of the Brexmaniacs (I think that is appropriate in this case) fit that description
captainsasquatch - Member
Questions asked chewkw, I'm expecting answers.
I guess it doesn't work like thsat for you, does it?
Let it go.
Be strong.
Do the time as others did for 43 years.
Let it go.
Be strong.
Do the time as others did for 43 years.
And suffer 43 years of a mistake? You're having a laugh, aren't you?
Don't you feel foolish for waiting for 43 years before calling for change?
If you can't answer a couple of questions, you can't be respected. Ninfan puts up dodgy photos and Jamba avoids important points.
None of you have done anything to make me think that my remain vote was wasted, nor have you done anything convince me that leave is the best way forward.
You haven't won anything and we all appear to be losers.
Makes you think.
And we are also, I would argue, past the point where working people can be convinced that the free movement of labour has worked for them, their families, their industries and their communities.
It is fine to argue values and perspectives for the middle distance, but if it comes up against the reality of people’s daily experience, these arguments will fail.
But it's not the realities of people's daily experience tho is it, unless you count reading the daily mail and the sun as part of that. The lies also came from the papers (who are obviously impartial and have nothing to gain from a potential brexit...). Voters were heavily influenced by lies, it doesn't matter where the lies came from. Democracy isn't about winning a vote it's about doing the right thing for the people, that includes giving them the right information to make an informed decision.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/13/rbs-chairman-calls-on-theresa-may-brexit-transitional-plan-howard-davies-banks-uk?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter ]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/13/rbs-chairman-calls-on-theresa-may-brexit-transitional-plan-howard-davies-banks-uk?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter[/url]
So not telling, means jobs walk... Maybe May should reveal some of the plan.
They did try to change but the political class refused to acknowledge them while they suffered in silent. They were totally abandon for the global corporate political elite class. They were left to rot.captainsasquatch - Member
And suffer 43 years of a mistake? You're having a laugh, aren't you?
Don't you feel foolish for waiting for 43 years before calling for change?
Respect? Their dignity was taken away to be replaced and to be told by the elites the way they should feel.If you can't answer a couple of questions, you can't be respected.
You vote however you like but now you should respect the outcome.None of you have done anything to make me think that my remain vote was wasted, nor have you done anything convince me that leave is the best way forward.
We won the peace of mind that no money can buy.You haven't won anything and we all appear to be losers.
We can go to our grave grinning from ear to ear saying "We were the nothing but we have done it."
And we are also, I would argue, past the point where working people can be convinced that the free movement of labour has worked for them, their families, their industries and their communities.
Why? Are they too stupid to understand the issues? Rather absurd to champion their decision at the same time as saying they can't handle facts, isn't it?
Immigrants work here, they spend money here, they spend money with the businesses that other people work for. Not really complicated.
They did try to change but the political class refused to acknowledge them while they suffered in silent. They were totally abandon for the global corporate political elite class. They were left to rot.
That is true. But making economic conditions even harder is not going to change that. Brexit is not going to solve their problems. How can it?
Chewkw you are very funny.... don't bite folks he doesn't really have a view or a soloution. Step away from the troll
Non EU migration is dominated by highly paid executives (high pay = highly taxed) and students who typically pay a premium to UK/EU students and as such subsidise their education. Both make economic sense, they pay their way and then some. In both categories you have to prove your worth before being granted a visa.
So are you happy to focus on the immigrants that provide the country with the most value then [b]jamba[/b]?
In that case you'll be happy to read this:
Figure 1a then graphs the evolution over time of the revenues/expenditures ratio for the three groups. Up until 2000, the relative fiscal contribution of natives was larger than the contributions of either EEA or non-EEA immigrants. However, [b]since 2001, EEA immigrants have not only consistently had a higher revenues/expenditures ratio than natives but have often made positive fiscal contributions even in years when the amount of public expenditure on natives has been larger than natives' fiscal payments.[/b] On the other hand, the fiscal contribution of non-EEA immigrants is slightly negative in all years, although the difference between their net cost and that of natives has been closing over time.
..
We display the difference between the revenues/expenditures ratio of recent EEA and non-EEA immigrants and that of natives in Figure 1b. The difference is particularly large in the first years, but it remains substantial throughout the period, in particular between natives and EEA immigrants, indicating a persistently higher fiscal contribution for the new cohorts of immigrants. Thus, these figures document that recent immigrants, and particularly those from the EEA countries, contributed substantially more in terms of taxes than they took out in terms of benefits and transfers over the period since 2000, even in those years where the UK ran a deficit, and the net fiscal contributions for natives were negative. Immigration since 2000, in particular
from the EEA countries, has thus helped to reduce the fiscal burden for native workers, and contributed to reducing the UK’s fiscal deficit.[img]
[/img]
Source: [url=
]"The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK", Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration (CReAM)[/url]
Looks like the worst contributors are the natives. If we ship all them out and replace them with migrants then we'll be laughing.
Wow. To summarise then. EEA immigrants are actually subsidising the rest of us? Including Chewkw?
Priceless!
Oh by the way Chewkw very few folks on here will have to do "time" unlike he poor sods (at the bottom) who voted to support their provided (by Farage Daily Mail) "moral" high ground - let's see how angry they get when **** all changes (well except that their standard of living declines) but you know this comrade commisar don't you?
Wow. To summarise then. EEA immigrants are actually subsidising the rest of us? Including Chewkw?
And including those brilliant skilled non-EEA migrants that jamba wants to keep whilst blocking the EEA migrants.
oldmanmtb - Member
Just let it go oldmanmtb.
Those feelings come from all my colleagues in their 60s (more than 60 year old) struggling with lives and some retired ones coming back to work part-time just to supplement their income.
[i]Quite simply Mrs May is absolutely not speaking about banning all immigration. Net flat immigration means 200,000+ new people every year to balance the leavers.[/i]
Once you've bollox'd up the ability to move in/out Europe with no/little hassle I'm guessing that'll be reduced.
Alternatively, if the EU allow associate membership, emigration will skyrocket! Getting rid of all the open minded tolerant people is really going to cause problems for Britishness...
Chewkw I have nothing to let go... no vested interest, no axe to grind as I am on the outside looking in due to my personal endeavours, but I do not like to see rich powerful folks using poor people as political infantry so I will keep shouting at the ****s regardless of their political affiliations.
Net flat immigration means 200,000+ new people every year to balance the leavers.
More than that. Emigration is currently at 306,000 a year. ([url= https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics ]y/e March 2016 figure[/url])
The net migration figures are interesting too - we get 10,000 more net migrants per year from non-EU countries than we do from the EU.
Net Migration:
43,000 Brits leaving, 180,000 EU citizens arriving, 190,000 Non-EU citizens arriving.
Won't it be good when we leave the EU and we can finally limit the EU migrants to the same kind of numbers as the non-EU... oh...
Also I am 53
Ninfan by confusing to misuse stats - in this case misunderstanding both the accounting and cash flow aspects of the £350m lie - you are merely demonstrating the lack of understanding that is endemic in the Brexshit community. You should know better. It's really not difficult and has been explained very clearly.
Graham 300k even better then. @b r my prediction is that EU countries will remain extremely keen to have Brits retire to their countries to spend their pensions and savings.
EEA migrants - it would be even better with visa based control, that's my point. I repeatedly come back to my point that of freedom of movement was such a good idea other trade blocks etc would be doing it.
@igm are you actually suggesting the Remainers are going to somehow club together to block A50 and Brexit ?
As for "winning" on Brexit I'd rather be a Leave supporter having won the Referendum than a Remainer with no ability to block A50 and Brexit done and dusted before the 2020 GE.
This thread is mental. I'm literally only following it now for the inevitable meltdown from the three Brexshiteers when it becomes apparent that we aren't leaving.
EEA migrants - it would be even better with visa based control
Why would it when the visa-based control non-EEA migrants we currently have contribute [i]less[/i] ?
I repeatedly come back to my point that of freedom of movement was such a good idea other trade blocks etc would be doing it.
Conversely being the only one doing it doesn't mean that it is a bad idea.
[quote=jambalaya ]
Today I can 100% go and live in Majorca and be looked after in their hospitals.
Can you guarantee me that this will be the case in 10 years time?
You couldn't guarantee that if we had Remined in the EU. You would be able to say it was more likely but you could not guaranty it.
Interesting. Can you provide me with a scenario (other than Spain leaving the EU, or the EU completely disintegrating 🙄 ) where that wouldn't be guaranteed if we stayed in the EU?
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Ninfan by confusing to misuse stats
I'm not sure why you bother. He's made his position of continuing to write complete bollocks which every Leave campaigner has disowned quite clear.
At least chewy is amusing.
Violence is never a solution I know but how can we be rid of this vile and odious creature once and for all.
We can go to our grave grinning from ear to ear saying "We were the nothing but we have done it."
Done what? What materially have you achieved? Win a glorified opinion pole with no legal bearing appears to be all you've done so far. When does the good stuff happen? What will it be? Who will it benefit? What will it cost?
I'm assuming he's expecting the event he mentions to be in the near future, before we find out any of that.
zokes - Still not a customer
We can go to our grave grinning from ear to ear saying "We were the nothing but we have done it."Done what? What materially have you achieved? Win a glorified opinion pole with no legal bearing appears to be all you've done so far. When does the good stuff happen? What will it be? Who will it benefit? What will it cost?
Does it have to be material? Does peace of mind or at peace with ourselves count? Good stuff is happening as I type. No more concerned about EU bureaucratic system expanding because they are slowly shrinking. The domino effect has started ...
It cost nothing to let it go and once you have let it go you will understand the meaning of at peace with yourself.
It cost nothing to let it go and once you have let it go you will understand the meaning of at peace with yourself.
Bonkers. Just bonkers. There needs to be a new word defined to cover "Uber-delusional"
It's just flat out bollox, and one you grow up a bit and stop trolling, you'll see that too.
Just remember Chewkw money's not important....
When is end the end game?
Well they usually say it will all be over by Christmas. But it never is. I think we're just digging trenches at the moment.
Oh and why this infatuation with age? I'm 62, is that supposed to have some relevance on how I feel about this stuff?
It would appear slow old man us elder chaps are in denial....
Right. I thought we were the ones who wanted out, but all my mates of my age are remainers.
@igm are you actually suggesting the Remainers are going to somehow club together to block A50 and Brexit ?
Well in effect probably, though I think it will be more that the government jettisons the three Brexmigos. I think opinion in the country is moving far enough and fast enough that it's going to be political suicide to take the UK out of the EU - the latest polls aren't even close. Which is of course why folks like your good self are desperate to get A50 triggered ASAP, because you ain't actually as daft as you like to make out and you know time is running out for you guys.
Democracy, as you will know, is a fickle beast, always moving.
PS - you still haven't responded to my point that a Brexit majority government might prove spectacularly difficult to achieve - hence no GE. The thing you'd posted was way too simplistic - which you know already of course.
Old enough to remember- young enough to have not forgotten previous s**t that happened it's not a bad combination
It's certainly going to be interesting to see how brexit fails to happen over the coming months and years.
Shit for those who will lose their jobs in the meantime: I'm going to be fine but would be interested in ideas for how to make the climbdown as painless and quick as possible.
PS - you still haven't responded to my point that a Brexit majority government might prove spectacularly difficult to achieve - hence no GE. The thing you'd posted was way too simplistic - which you know already of course.
A Brexit Majority Government - we have one already. Tory 3-line whip IMO will be enough and even if there where a few stragglers enough opposition MPs would vote with the Government. Is that your Qn answered ?
Amusing as hell the other posters claiming Brexit isn't going to happen 🙂 Look at the writing on the wall it's eurosceptism which is on a positive wave with building momentum. The doom and gloom of IMF/Cameron and Osbourne has been shown to be a grand deception (as we all knew). With Trump winning the EU's problems just got a whole lot worse. Elections in Austria, Holland, France and Germany .. Trump blocking further IMF money for Greece and euroscpetic leaders in Europe refusing to go it alone ? For Brexit it couldn't look better.
@aracer I was referring to the access to hospital, easy to see a financial crises in eurozone/Spain leading to change in qualification requirements for example. Unlikely to lead to that but not impossible. There are plenty here who see EU membership guarantying certain things but they are of course not guranateed.
Arsonists running away from the house they just torched…
[b][i] "see, aren't you glad you're not in there, I told you it wasn't safe."[/i][/b]
A Brexit Majority Government - we have one already. Tory 3-line whip IMO will be enough and even if there where a few stragglers enough opposition MPs would vote with the Government. Is that your Qn answered ?
Only to demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of the situation. People have had enough of the failed political experiment that was Brexit. It's over. Just move on.
A Brexit Majority Government - we have one already. Tory 3-line whip IMO will be enough and even if there where a few stragglers enough opposition MPs would vote with the Government. Is that your Qn answered ?
That's actually a different question you answered. But fun nevertheless.
The current government is pro-Brexit - probably - but it looks divided and poor May is wearing herself out trying to get them to present a united front. However you will have noted from previous posts, if not just from looking at the team sheet, Brexiters have been placed in such a manner as to be jettisonable with minimal damage to the country.
Parliament is another matter. The lords who do not have to bow to populism are anti-Brexit. The commons were anti-Brexit until they thought populism was against them. However they are now starting to get organised and the popular tide in Britain is turning against Brexit - read the papers, check the polls, it's not marginal. So the commons will change again.
As for eurosceptism in Europe. Closer to say far-right/neo-nazi politics is on the rise. Understandably they don't like something that in part was put in to get in their way. I think that is one more good reason to keep the faith and remain in the EU, particularly poignant around armistice day.
Funnily enough at the Remembrance service we attended the vicar talked about Trump, Brexit and the rise of divisiveness and hate.
I was a bit confused by how the PM's statements, the opposition and the points of view of arch remainers such as PAddy Ashdown hung together.
For instance the PM banging on about the voters "clearly sending a message to control immigration". I can clearly remember the leave argument being about a number of different conflicting things. Then the meaningless Brexit means Brexit thing. Then there was Labour's red lines in the sand about access to the single market which seemed perfectly reasonable but it was quickly dropped. Everybody including arch remainers have been very clear about accepting the result of the vote and using the words the people have clearly spoken even though it was as near 50/50 as it could have been.
Then there is Niassan's decision... This strongly hints to the possibility that the government already has a red line in the sand that they will not cross. Which I interpret as no major change to the trading relationship with the EU.
The only way I can make this all fit together in my head is that the politicians have had no intention of leaving the EU from the start but are trying to sell what they get in a positive way to the leavers. The only way they can do this is by putting up the facade that they respect the voters wishes and will somehow have something to present that says they can have some control over immigration from the EU. I admit we may not end up being a member of the EU on paper but to all intensive purposes will be.
That is why they do not want parliamentary scrutiny as if they have to admit that they have red lines which they cannot cross due to economic reasons and that forces them to stay they are basically shafted in the eyes of the leavers as even though Brexit is not logical it is what have been promised.
The trouble for the leavers is that most of our trade and economic strategy is connected with membership of the EU. We are locked in. Of course as jambalaya pointed out the EU seems to be having a bad time economically at the moment. Staying in terms of Brexit would be good in this case as our trade with the EU would naturally decline as the EU declines and our trade with the rest of the world would hopefully increase. Then when the EU does decline we can leave pain free. We don't have to worry so much as we are not a part of the Euro so it is really win win staying as the pound is seen as a haven of stability in Europe.
Of course there are a lot of environmental, banking and employment laws that we could get rid of but then we would either not have then or make up our own which any sensible government would try to harmonise with other countries so it was easier to trade with them.
I admit we may not end up being a member of the EU on paper but to all intensive purposes will be.
Yep but it'll be at a premium and those rebates(you used to get :-).
Just a money thing,Joe public wanted out so Joe public can pick up the bill.
Trump makes it harder for EU but for the UK too.
If he follows his campaign pledges it is going to be all about the US.
Trump protectionism is a good opportunity for the EU.
the latest polls aren't even close
Link?
GEDA - most (65%) of our international trade is outside the EU and the EU has been a declining partner as it's economy is stagnant. Most (85%) of our economic activity is domestic. The US does a significant amount of trade with the EU without being a member. Being inside or out does not switch trade on or off.
The Nissan "deal" has not cost a penny. Any future cost, if any, will be payable from 2019 onwards and at that stage we can decide whether to continue or not. As it stands with the £ at this level and adding worst case WTO tariffs Nissan is comfortably better off producing cars in the UK. Cost of deal therefore zero.
cchris I think you'll find Trump has no issue with trade agreements between countries of similar wealth, eg US and Canada or indeed the UK. Where NAFTA and the EU have failed is the massive stretch to extend that to include countries of hugely varied wealth. As Trump and Clinton said that hasn't worked execpt to export Ameican jobs to Mexico.
Obama is making a trip to Europe, dinner with Merkel etc. The Guardian piece below raises the elephant in the room which is the eurozone debt crises and in particular Greece. Obama is calling for meaningful debt relief but imho this is politically impossible for France and Germany before their 2017 general elections as debt relief means admitting to their taxpayers that in the region €100 billion maybe more has been lost, gone. As I said the IMF has been calling for the same and I see no way Trump will commit $ to another bailout without Europe taking the material pain required first.
Trump protectionism is a good opportunity for the EU.
indeed Ill bet airbus are really hoping he goes through with his tarrifs on chinese imports
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/donald-trump-china-iphone-cars-cut-trade-war-threat-us-auto-industry-a7415846.html
no help for their 15000 uk employees if we leave single market though
(unless we offer a blank check to subsidise the aerospace industry as MAy obviously did with automotive- otherwise why keep it secret 🙄 )
Trump protectionism is a good opportunity for the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/a433d6f6-fa69-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b
GEDA - most (65%) of our international trade is outside the EU and the EU has been a declining partner as it's economy is stagnant. Most (85%) of our economic activity is domestic
So here's a question. Does the movement of goods prior to final sale still count in those figures? As per the Delphi example.
Also 35% of international trade is a hell of a lot.
And one more question - how much will our economic activity shrink if faced with tariffs to EU trade? The Trump/China thing shows how damaging tariffs can be: If China were to put up iPhone prices there'd be anguish in American because they'd have no choice but to keep buying them - this shows what would happen when a country has no alternative to a product. But reciprocally, if China sticks import tariffs on Boeing planes, when they DO have an alternative in Airbus, then American loses out on the sales.
Japanese motor industry have indicated expectations that free trade and freedom of movement will continue. Good news.
The Nissan "deal" has not cost a penny. Any future cost, if any, will be payable from 2019 onwards and at that stage we can decide whether to continue or not. As it stands with the £ at this level and adding worst case WTO tariffs Nissan is comfortably better off producing cars in the UK. Cost of deal therefore zero.
jambafact #728
so many holes in that
As it stands with the £ at this level and adding worst case WTO tariffs Nissan is comfortably better off producing cars in the UK. Cost of deal therefore zero.
You want the economy to succeed, but at the same time you want the £ to stay low. Eh what? Am I missing something in my naievety?
There is a strange split between those people wanting Brexit to IMPROVE/INCREASE trade with the rest of the world, that is those that say the EU is holding us back from trading, and those that voted Leave because they feel that international trade has "left them behind" and results in a "lack of control" at the national level. I can't reconcile what these different groups of people (who voted for "the same thing") want. Can anyone help?
Should Brexit result in a rolling back, or a forward push, for globalisation?
Perhaps we need a simple poll…
1) let's trade more
2) let's trade less
Farage isn't as stupid as he looks, get Trump into power and the USA will screw up trade deals leaving the crumbs, and they're pretty big crumbs, fall into the UK's lap.
#Genius.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/donald-trump-china-iphone-cars-cut-trade-war-threat-us-auto-industry-a7415846.html ]“If Trump wrecks Sino-US trade, a number of US industries will be impaired. Finally the new president will be condemned for his recklessness, ignorance and incompetence,” the newspaper said.[/url]
😆
Where NAFTA and the EU have failed is the massive stretch to extend that to include countries of hugely varied wealth.
Actually Jamba I have some sympathy with that, although you still need to define what the EU is for before you can define failure. It is, and always was, a bit more useful than a mere trade deal.
The interesting bit is that, and forgive me if I have misunderstood your argument, you suggest that it is the trade deal part of it leaving the poor behind that caused the ill feeling, which of course manifests itself in the anti-immigrant, anti-foreigner stance of the leave campaign.
But that's the bit that everyone wants to keep - even you, although you suggest it will just magically work with no downside, which neither you nor I believe.
Interesting.
Where NAFTA and the EU have failed is the massive stretch to extend that to include countries of hugely varied wealth.
Counties of different wealth might specialise in different industries, or have different natural resources, or different climates, so trade agreements between them make sense, no? Why only have trade agreements with countries that are trying to grow the exact same industries as you?
The first figure I came across is[url= https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ ] 44% of our trade is with the eu[/url]. That must mean we do 54% with the rest of the world. How many of those companies are based here due to getting access to the EU markets and the rest of the world?
It is really funny that May is pressing for free trade with the rest of the world as a solution to our problems while Trump is arguing the opposite. Who would have thought the answer to the feeling on the street that foreigners are taking our jobs would be that we want more foreigners to take our jobs. Please China dump your cheap steel on us. We don't care that it is produced using vastly cheaper labour with negligible environmental laws.
The thing about free trade is that it is not in the interest of the weaker party. Especially if we want to preserve things like environmental protection, workers rights, political rights as at the end of the day money talks.
The thing about free trade is that it is not in the interest of the weaker party.
I'm not sure that's always the case. What constitutes weaker? China was the poorer country and it's done very well out of trade. Likewise I suspect that the eastern European countries have benefitted from people coming over here to gain skills - provided they return afterwards, of course. They also get a good deal of outsourcing work sent over to them.
If one country has the money, and the other country has the skills, which one is weaker? Which one loses out?
I think the problem isn't with free trade as such, it's exploitation.
We are weaker if we want to preserve jobs, environmental protection, and employment protection and if we want to compete we must be willing to cutting costs somewhere or have a protected market.
Ideally you'd want some kind of supra-national organisation to make sure that everyone had to stick to the same rules and prevent some people under-cutting each other...
We are weaker if we want to preserve jobs, environmental protection, and employment protection and if we want to compete we must be willing to cutting costs somewhere or have a protected market.
Or learn how to sell quality instead of cheap crap. There's a market for quality too.
Or learn how to sell quality instead of cheap crap. There's a market for quality too.
Limited though. You can't suddenly make everyone buy top quality stuff instead of cheap stuff - where will they get the money?
Limited though. You can't suddenly make everyone buy top quality stuff instead of cheap stuff - where will they get the money?
What do you think is the difference between manufacturing quality stuff and cheap stuff, as a proportion of the final selling price?
Double your manufacturing cost on many products and it would barely affect final price
What do you think is the difference between manufacturing quality stuff and cheap stuff, as a proportion of the final selling price?
This I'll agree with to a degree. A good quality control regime will bring down costs and make you more competitve.
We need to market quality and stop accepting the price driven markets that are selling to us at the moment. Lazy sales people thrive on cheap prices to gain market share, anyone can do that.
Good quality doesn't need to mean expensive.
So let me get this straight. You're advocating investing hugely in building manufacturing capability, on the basis that it'll be better quality than the Chinese.
Sounds good. Why do we need to be out of the EU to do ths?