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Are we still going round in the same circles? - binners hilarious M-P pictures, discussion of Labour's complete lack of policy.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, Brexit is gonna happen, it's going to be more or less shite for everyone, mostly the poor (as usual - with the special irony that it was the poor who voted for it), and despite some real negative impact on my life, I'm almost beyond caring.
They've also got form for gerrymandering the conference agenda so they avoid actually discussing anything that the leadership don't want to talk about
Don't mention the B word and lets get on with discussing the pressing issue of rural bus timetables
So you’re throwing your dummy out the pram because it’s not on the website? Appropriate that you mention 10 year olds though because the remain reaction to labour’s position is about at that level.
Nope, just continue to be amazed by your naivety. Corbyn's careful wording around a 2nd referendum allows them to support a 2nd referendum but also campaign for a Brexit option on that referendum. There's also no clarification on how the Brexit options would even be defined - it seems to assume Labour win a GE and negotiate a new deal that parliament agrees with (despite them not having offered any solutions to things like the Irish boarder issue, and "technology" isn't it).
So as a Remainer why would I vote Labour at the GE when it seems likely Corbyn wants to carry on with Brexit, just on his terms?
I don't hate Corbyn and I understand that what he's doing (as a Brexiteer in opposition) is entirely sensible but I won't vote for a party that's not clearly pro-Remain (either abandoning article 50 with a mandate from a GE with it being in their manifesto or supporting a 2nd referendum and campaigning for Remain in that referendum
For clarity (again....):
“Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards.”
A vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit - it says so on the fing website...at least until.....IF....it changes....which I doubt it will since Corbyn has been a eurosceptic nearly all his life..
🙄
https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/
Meanwhile, BBC reporting take up of foreign language in schools dropping as parents tell their kids they won't need another language after Brexit.
WTF??
Trouble is that the tickets were $5 each. So everyone just got their stake back, less an admin fee!
You've both missed the salient point here - the stake and the prize are both is USD and they only lost 10% of the value. What do we reckon post Halloween? A pound being worth fifty cents?
Meanwhile, BBC reporting take up of foreign language in schools dropping as parents tell their kids they won’t need another language after Brexit.
To be replaced by the international language of shouting slowly in English
Nice to see that the Brexit party's stunt yesterday has now got the Twitter hashtag 'Backgammon' 😀
Nope, just continue to be amazed by your naivety.
As opposed to the naivety of thinking that voting libdem will suddenly stop brexit instead of enabling a tory/brexit party victory and a no deal brexit?
Corbyn’s careful wording around a 2nd referendum allows them to support a 2nd referendum but also campaign for a Brexit option on that referendum.
They've said they'll provide options for both leave and remain voters. They've never said how they will campaign. As I've said, I expect they'll go down the Wilson route of allowing labour MPs to campaign according to their consciences.
There’s also no clarification on how the Brexit options would even be defined
They've clearly said it will be up to parliament to decide the questions of a new referendum based on whatever new deal they can agree (or not). There's nothing ambiguous about this (yeah yeah, website etc - see above).
– it seems to assume Labour win a GE and negotiate a new deal that parliament agrees with
There's no assumption about it. They've been very clear that a labour govt would seek to renegotiate with the EU to agree a new deal that can then go to a referendum.
(despite them not having offered any solutions to things like the Irish boarder issue, and “technology” isn’t it).
You're getting confused. Labour have offered a solution to the border issue in the form of a permanent customs union deal with the EU. The technology stuff is ERG fantasies about a Canada deal.
That's not a solution though, is it? Not wanting to go back hundreds of pages to explain again why an agreement on tariffs is almost inconsequential as regards all Ireland operations, and the nationality of residents of Northern Ireland… but customs arrangements are just a small part of a much much larger puzzle for which no one has yet put forward a solution… how to keep all Ireland alignments in place, and also keep all UK alignments in place, yet allow the UK to Leave and deviate from the Single Market and abandon FoM within it.
However you try to colour it dazh.....
A Labour vote is STILL a vote FOR Brexit...
...and unicorns. Red unicorns, comrade. Many, many red unicorns
As opposed to the naivety of thinking that voting libdem will suddenly stop brexit instead of enabling a tory/brexit party victory and a no deal brexit?
When have I said I expect LibDems to win a GE and stop Brexit? It's highly likely they won't but at least that's what they've been clear they would do if given the chance. Labour's version of Brexit is not just undefined but also still ultimately Brexit, why - as a Remainer - would I vote for that? Just to stop the Tories version of Brexit (which is still also undefined).
They’ve said they’ll provide options for both leave and remain voters. They’ve never said how they will campaign. As I’ve said, I expect they’ll go down the Wilson route of allowing labour MPs to campaign according to their consciences.
Well I guess we'll have to wait and see, I very much doubt I'll be proved wrong and I very much doubt Corbyn will give Labour MPs in a majority Labour government a free vote or free reign to campaign to remain.
They’ve clearly said it will be up to parliament to decide the questions of a new referendum based on whatever new deal they can agree (or not). There’s nothing ambiguous about this (yeah yeah, website etc – see above).
Which is all wishy-washy BS, have you been living under a rock for the last few months or have you not realised parliament can't decide anything when it comes to Brexit. The only way a Brexit decision is getting made in parliament is after a GE with a strong majority government (or by BoJo managing to suspend parliament and forcing a no deal through). So it's just a meaningless statement
There’s no assumption about it. They’ve been very clear that a labour govt would seek to renegotiate with the EU to agree a new deal that can then go to a referendum.
So pro-Brexit then as per their web page? Glad we agree on something
You’re getting confused. Labour have offered a solution to the border issue in the form of a permanent customs union deal with the EU. The technology stuff is ERG fantasies about a Canada deal.
And how are they getting that customs deal without a backstop being in the withdrawal agreement? You think Labour saying "you can def trust us lot to sort something out so you don't need a backstop" will be enough for the EU to remove it from the withdrawal agreement? Or is it just a pro-Brexit Labour government would force a slightly altered version of May's deal (still with the backup in the withdrawal agreement) through parliament and call it a victory that's great for Britain? Jesus wept...
A Labour vote is STILL a vote FOR Brexit…
Not really. It isnt clear what precisely it is a vote for and anyone saying it is categorically one way or another is talking bollocks.
Unicorns everywhere.
It's a Kobayashi Maru scenario this shitfest.
A Labour vote is STILL a vote FOR Brexit…
Not really
Yes, really
Which bit of "Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU." are you struggling with, comrade?
yup
as of today, the official Labour website still says:
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
I that interpret as, 'we are not going to attempt to remain, or have a people's vote'.
So I'll be voting Green (possibly LD) in the coming GE this autumn.
Some very deluded Labour supporters on here....
One can only hope they wake up & smell the coffee before it’s too late - ‘cos Corbyn ain’t riding to your rescue on a red unicorn if you’re a Remainer......if you’re a Brexiteer however....
🦄🦄🦄
You know that “because, technology” claim…
I think we've had enough of experts etc
Some very deluded Labour supporters on here
That you assume anyone who disagrees with you has to be a Labour supporter is rather telling.
They didn't say that though, did they.
Labour supporters? Thats a sweeping statement. Don't you be lumping them in with all those ****ing Blairites!
They know who the real enemy is...
"That you assume anyone who disagrees with you has to be a Labour supporter is rather telling."
Is it?
Oh do tell!
[ attempts to escape the circle of "will he, won't he" - "has he, hasn't he" Corbyn nonsense ]
Canada Is Refusing To Roll Over Its EU Trade Agreement For The UK If There's A No-Deal Brexit
“Post-Brexit, any future trade arrangement between Canada and the UK would be influenced by the terms of the withdrawal agreed between the UK and the EU, as well as any unilateral UK approaches.”
Probably a key moment … and the change in tone and content of Fox's contributions to the Brexit debate over the last few weeks suggests he has a good idea of what's coming … that a no deal Brexit will hit exports into non-EU countries as well as into EU ones.
I dunno, under ordinary circumstances I'd be a Labour supporter, however I'm so f***** off with the flip-flopping over Brexit and the nasty, occasionally antisemitic Corbynite t**ts on twitter that I've cancelled my membership in protest. I know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
flip-flopping
Weird cos everyone else on here has spent the last year complaining that labour policy hasn't changed.
I can't speak for "everyone", but Labour policy has changed … the effort that went into moving Corbyn into a position of support for even "a" Customs Union by many inside the Labour movement was considerable. That was a move, and in the right direction. Another recent move was that Labour now supports a referendum on any Brexit deal that this government gets (a policy adopted 2 years too late to achieve anything). So little, so slow, with the same key people fighting any move away from the original "trigger A50 now" Hardest of Brexits with no second chance for the public to vote against it that Corbyn got right behind after the referendum went marginally "against" what he "campaigned" for.
(In my opinion) the perception of "flip-flopping" partly comes from key Labour people saying one thing, only for another key Labour person being sent out to contradict them. Often on the same day. Often after having been in the same meeting with Corbyn, yet coming away with diametrically opposing understandings about what he has said and agreed to as regards Brexit policy.
Meanwhile, BBC reporting take up of foreign language in schools dropping as parents tell their kids they won’t need another language after Brexit.
That's hilarious when half of the parents couldn't even be bothered to learn a first language properly.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
I that interpret as, ‘we are not going to attempt to remain, or have a people’s vote’.
That's the problem though, it's a Trump Statement. It's big on words but low on content, you could interpret it any way you like (which I'd bet is exactly as designed).
I mean, it's possible to respect the result without treating it as a mandate, and if they're going to put the national interest first then that means withdrawing A50. Alternatively through more pineapple-ringed vision it could be taken to mean that the referendum result must be obeyed and brexit at all costs, will of the people three years ago and all that.
;That’s hilarious when half of the parents couldn’t even be bothered to learn a first language properly
"Don't learn French Darren itz just not wurf it!"
*Said in squawking chav east midlands accent*
the perception of “flip-flopping” partly comes from key Labour people saying one thing, only for another key Labour person being sent out to contradict them
So Corbyn sent out the likes of Tom Watson to contradict him and confuse everyone? I presume Blair is in on this conspiracy too? No doubt Chukka is a deep cover spy sent to the libdems to undermine their teenage bollocks to brexit campaign?
> sigh <
No, I mean his key front benchers.
This is my last engagement with you in this thread @dazh, sorry, just too tedious.
Yeah I know I was winding you up. But there is a point here, because if I say that the likes of McDonnell, Thornberry etc have said that labour are for a second referendum, the response here is that its not official policy on the website, yet you're doing exactly the same thing from the opposite point of view. This is the problem, in that everyone is essentially making it up to justify their own view rather than taking things at face value, which is that this is a very complex and almost impossible problem which is not going to be solved by simple black and white opinions.
;That’s hilarious when half of the parents couldn’t even be bothered to learn a first language properly
“Don’t learn French Darren itz just not wurf it!”
*Said in squawking chav east midlands accent*
It's great that we can sneer at those less fortunate. The BBC article does link the downturn in modern languages to Brexit, but the article's scope looks at deprived areas. I know some of the stories of both pupils and parents from deprived areas, and it can often be pretty crap. I might disagree with it, but I can understand why parents may question the usefulness of learning another language over perhaps doing another subject.
The uptake of French and German at GCSE level has been on a steep decline since 2003, so it seems the requirement to study a foreign language up to GCSE level until 2001 kept the numbers of pupils taking these subjects higher than would normally be the case.
I bet numbers of remainers children taking these subjects has also declined a lot in the last 15 years.
Using crass generalisations from limited information to degrade the intelligence of the other side is not a good look in my book.
so it seems the requirement to study a foreign language up to GCSE level until 2001 kept the numbers of pupils taking these subjects higher than would normally be the case
And should be reintroduced. Perhaps post Brexit a government could reintroduce the requirement, to emphasise both a "global Britain" approach and a commitment to education. I'd guess that the numbers of pupils taking maths is currently higher than would normally be the case, because it is mandatory.
2017 election results in your constituency: lab 25,683, Con 21,308, LibDem 912. You have a simple choice between a party which wants a no deal, or one which has committed to holding a second referendum on any deal. If ever there was a constituency where voting libdem will split the labour vote and ensure the tories win this is it.
The problem with this approach is that it ensures we only ever have two parties capable of forming a government. At some point, folk need to commit to a third party, to show that they might be in with a chance at the next election or the one after that. That'll then swing others. We complain about politicians being short-termist and yet the electorate acts the same way, not seeing beyond the immediate ballot. There has never been a better chance to break the two-party Westminster system than now.
All they need to do is teach the kids to say " hello my name is Stan I'd like to talk to you about your energy bills" in Hindi.
Using crass generalisations from limited information to degrade the intelligence of the other side is not a good look in my book.
TBF it was rayban and he's the STW snob-in-chief so probably not representative of the whole.
TBF it was rayban and he’s the STW snob-in-chief so probably not representative of the whole.
Possibly. Cougar should know better though.
It’s great that we can sneer at those less fortunate. The BBC article does link the downturn in modern languages to Brexit, but the article’s scope looks at deprived areas. I know some of the stories of both pupils and parents from deprived areas, and it can often be pretty crap. I might disagree with it, but I can understand why parents may question the usefulness of learning another language over perhaps doing another subject.
I spent the majority of my childhood in the east mids going to a shitty rural comp, so I feel totally entitled to make that disparaging comment.
It's only the British working classes that question the usefulness of learning another language, having a lot of EU friends and a non-EU wife I've had my eyes totally opened to just how important parents of all social classes view a second language in other countries. The poor attitude towards languages is a very British disease, it's a symptom of our insularity, anti-intellectualism and entitlement to our standard of living and place in the world.
Tolkien hit the mark with his vision of the shire, we're a nation of hobbits - only in the books the hobbits win and everything stays fine and dandy.
All they need to do is teach the kids to say ” hello my name is Stan I’d like to talk to you about your energy bills” in Hindi.
Or how to suggest a wine pairing in Mandarin. 😀
This is my last engagement with you in this thread @dazh, sorry, just too tedious.
It's only just got tedious? Lighten up man. This thread stopped being anything serious a long time ago. Perhaps we should petition the powers that be to close it until Halloween when we can all come back and laugh at how wrong we all were? You never know, Binners might well have turned back into a lefty again by then. 🙂
so it seems the requirement to study a foreign language up to GCSE level until 2001 kept the numbers of pupils taking these subjects higher than would normally be the case
And should be reintroduced.
I actually expect a lot of the drop is down to inability to recruit teachers.
I actually expect a lot of the drop is down to inability to recruit teachers.
Can we think of any reason why that could be getting worse? And is very likely to get worse still? Ever decreasing circles…
But recruitment isn't the main issue beyond years 7/8/9, demand is… all the local sixth forms have dropped French at A-level now because the class sizes are just too small for the funding to make sense. We're are turning our back on learning languages as a nation, at least in the state sector.
it’s a symptom of our insularity, anti-intellectualism and entitlement to our standard of living and place in the world.
Or it’s a symptom of English being the world language, so what’s the point of learning, say, German? While their culture and history are fascinating, if you’re a British kid, would you really pick it over a stem subject? If you’re a non-Anglophone kid, learning English is a no-brainier. That report did say Spanish was on the up, maybe a language that lots of people speak makes more sense.