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Sovereign I think not supreme.
And isn’t it “the queen/king in parliament“?
And there's the rub. That's how sovereignty works under English law.
Scotland has a separate legal system which is not subordinate to English law (and is protected by the Treaty of Union), and sovereignty is different. It comes from the people.
I have much sympathy with your position dazh, and argued as much myself about a thousand pages ago, but we are no longer at, or even near, the point of reasonableness any more.
We are already in a state of War.
As ridiculous as that might sound, it is too late for it to be any other, and the time to choose sides is already now, so choose.
Remain & Green suggests that you are *this side*, are you with us?
So Which one? Parliament Democracy = supreme or sovereign? 🤔
Thanks for the Chris grey link del.
Thinking of the last paragraph,the way out of Brexit is probably for something bigger than it (derived from it?) to kick off.
I'm not looking forward to it, whatever it is.
You appear to have little understanding of how representative democracy works.
So lets break it down to the lesser of two weevils.
Weevil One says that the rich have earned their wealth, and making a good business environment for them is their top priority, so they will work hard for the Top Weevils. Weevil wealth will naturally trickle down.
Weevil Two says that the rich have received their wealth from the travails of the worker weevils, and without this labour, Weevil One would not be so disproportionately rich. And should the fruits of their labour be more equitably apportioned, it would seem that Weevil One has been ****ing us all over all of this time.
While Weevil Two has been working this out, Weevil One has been busy building a massive force of arms to make sure Weevil Two is the lesser of two weevils.
YOu guys need to remember the withdrawal agreement is just that - its about how we leave and what rules during transition. It does not cover what the future relationship looks like bar vague words in the political declaration
So Which one? Parliament Democracy = supreme or sovereign?
As another user here would say, do your own research. Whatever we tell you you're not going to accept.
Remain & Green suggests that you are *this side*, are you with us?
Depends on who you mean by 'us'. I'm still remain, that's never changed. What has changed though is a recognition that the remain argument is increasingly being driven by a sneering condescension of those who voted for brexit, especially if they're working class and from the north of England. I actually used to have fairly similar views, but seeing middle class city dwellers celebrate the loss of jobs in Sunderland or other leave voting areas, or calling people gammons for the crime of wanting something better or different to the current shitshow has changed my opinion, because 20 years ago they would have been sneering at me. So yeah, I'm still remain, and always will be, but I'm not going to join in with the snobbery and condescending superiority currently being displayed by many on that side of the argument.
And if you want a small example of what I'm talking about, this just about sums it up.
snobbery and condescending superiority
My mum voted out as her friend had a Nigerian nurse be nasty to her in hospital.
I think my condescending superiority is allowef.
DazH, you've spent this entire thread sneering at centerism. It's precisely that discourse that has led us to where we are now. Read the following article to get an inkling for of why the lefts complicity is important to Farage.
https://colinrtalbot.wordpress.com/2019/05/08/is-farages-new-brexit-party-fascist/amp/
Farage has been enabled by appealing to some hardcore socialists and the right wing at the same time. The constant belittling of centerists, calling them tories, the sneering "same old" attitude, the constant attacks on new labour by Marxist stooges have left the country without a coherent moderate centre that can fight off people like Farage. The labour party veering further left hasn't proven to be a bulwark against Farage, it's strengthened him as voters who vote for more peripheral positions are much more easily swung to the other side.
You and all the other Corbyn supporters on here have been wrong about everything, 100 percent of the time.
Emotionally galvanising the remain demographic is the only way to emotionally redicalise centerists in the same way the far left and far right have been. This absolutely has to be done to make sure that the centre can act as a cohesive voting block against the lunatics on the further left and right, who will likely co-operate with each other or form into one block.
To double down on what I just said, as mass movements are interchangeable, where adherents will often flip from one movement to another and because the motivations of mass movements are interchangeable. Religious, nationalist and social movements, whether radical or reactionary, tend to attract the same type of followers.
It's for that reason that the centre needs to offer a strong counter message. It's for that reason why I am so angry with Corbyn and people like you.
Don't worry, enabling brexit rhetoric is saving our NHS!
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/02/foreign-nurses-target-cut-from-nhs-staffing-plan
Pretty spot on assessment that raybanwomble
The Corbynite left are as knowingly complicit in this catastrophe as Farage and the ERG. They may as well have been operating strategically together, so effectively have they destroyed any sensible option and driven everything to the extremes.
It seems even hardcore fellow travellers like John McDonnell, Paul Mason and Dianne abbot can see this now, despite years of staring the reality in the face that has been apparent for years. Jeremy Corbyn and those around him wanted Brexit from the off, very enthusiastically, had no intention of doing anything to hinder its process and facilitated it at every critical juncture
If we crash out with no deal in October, as looks increasingly likely, I’m sure they’ll all pat themselves on the back for a job well done.
That any sane person thinks that Jeremy Corbyn is on the side of the average working glass voter (who he’s paid to represent) absolutely mystifies me
I do think that Jeremy Corbyn's intentions are to be on the side of the working classes, it's just that he he making a complete **** up of it. I actually don't doubt his intentions, but the leadership job is too big for him, and he has been sat there paralysed in the oncoming headlights.
Unlike the tories who really don't give a flying **** about 95% of the population, and for whom destruction of lives, communities and futures is acceptable collateral damage in the constant quest for wealth and power.
Rayban - once again - labour is a centrist party. The whole Corbyn hard left / antisemetic / friend of hamas nonsense is there to scare folk put about by right wing propaganda organs.
There is not a single labour policy that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition and indeed many of the "controversial" policies are accepted by right and left right across europe.
Yes, it's all made up. We really must stop just reading headlines and read more widely. Silly us. Corbyn has never been anti EU, not ever. Nothing to suggest he is proBrexit in anything he has said or done, before he was elected leader, or since the referendum.
calling people gammons for the crime of wanting something better or different to the current shitshow
Just so we're clear - and this is another well-trodden path as it's the same straw man lie that our previous RINO-In-Chief used to delight in hiding behind - absolutely no-one is calling anyone anything for "wanting something better or different." Hell, I want something different. Rather, "gammons" refers to the hysterical subset of leavers who are banging on about foreigners, unelected bureaucrats, sovereignty and many other things that they have next to no understanding of but are really really angry about. I don't doubt that many leave voters - dare I guess the majority even - don't fall into this category.
But at the risk of repeating myself (again), you knew that, didn't you.
Rayban – once again – labour is a centrist party. The whole Corbyn hard left / antisemetic / friend of hamas nonsense is there to scare folk put about by right wing propaganda organs.
Labour aren't centrist - they are further left than the German SDP. This is besides the point, I don't even care about their policies that much. Most people, like yourself study extremism by analysing a groups philosophy, policies or ideas. People who do this are simply trying to find easy deduced material reasons as to why people are attracted to a certain movement.
It is precisely their current character and those incidents that you allude to that are helping Farage, this isn't about hard policies that are easily verifiable, it is about the grey world of language and rhetoric. Labour under Corbyn has become a reactive party, that using language, rhetoric and emotive causes to radicalize it's followers in the pursuit of it's aims - in doing so it has contributed to the current atmosphere where radicalised victimhood has been legitimised. It radicalised it's adherents by using political language that told them their lives were terrible and it's someone else's fault. Then the party gave those people issues to rage at or with, to help fill the void left by feeling powerless - Palestine, Momentum and Capitalism. They created outcasts through the use of language and then gave them a banner under which they could immolate themselves - organisations like Momentum are substitutes for peoples self worth in the same way that ISIS is.
Radicalizing your voter base doesn't work the way you, or Corbyn thinks it does. Because the far right radicalise their voter base in the same emotional way, when supporters manage to escape one tribe they often fall directly into the hands of the other movement. Since mass movements recruit from the same population of disaffected individuals, they are in direct competition with each other for recruits - one mass movements gain is the others loss.
The reason why Corbyn is dithering on this, is that he has now realised this. He knows that he radicalised his own support base and now he is stuck in a position where he is worried about losing his own radicalised disciples to another mass movement.
The trick is not to ****ing radicalise people in the first place by being careful with your language and rhetoric. This is also the reason why the centre is now the only answer, it needs to counter political radicalisation through some kind of political anti-fascist/anti-communist McCarthyism - a political PREVENT program that offers a strong alternative narrative. Remain needs to be the glue that binds the centre together emotionally so they are coherent enough to carry this out.
Uncle Jezza - there is nothing whatsoever in the ‘European Social Democratic Tradition’ about Corbyn’s attitude to the E.U. and Brexit
And maintaining that anyone who criticises him is some sort of unthinking, ill -informed lackey and capitalist slave to the military-industrial complex is just incredibly patronising
We’re criticising him because he’s either an enthusiastic Brexiteer who’s facilitating this farce, or he’s so monumentally incompetent that he’s wasting the biggest opportunity any leader of the opposition has ever been handed by his endless dithering and sheer, almost comedic ineptitude
And if you’re in any doubt about what Rayban is saying about the toxic rhetoric of Corbyn’s support then just check out the social media feeds of groups like Red Labour
The language and attitude is exactly the same as the far right. People are thunderously denounced as traitors and enemies of the people, and witch-hunts against anyone who dares criticise ‘the leadership’ have a Stalinist air to them. It’s also got the same really nasty subplot of misogyny and racism about it as you’d find on the far right
A case in point from today that just demonstrates how toxic things have become under Corbyn in the Labour Party
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1135100092413861889?s=21
Just tripped over this. It's an article from two years ago, but its a chilling answer to the "why can't we just leave?" brigade.
https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
I wonder how far we've progressed since this was written? I'd wager somewhere between "not very" and "not at all."
It's also why when populism gains traction, the policies become a race to the bottom on both sides Binners. Precisely because of that competition for radicalised voters.
This started off with the Tories in 2010, looking back, this political descending Split-S dogfight is really quite clear.
Corbyn is just the same as Farage in his economic nationalism and populism. They’re two cheeks of the same arse
And the political argument is now so skewed that every candidate for the Tory leadership and what laughably passes for the leadership of the Labour Party are standing on fantasy Brexit platforms that are entirely Unicorn-based and won’t survive first contact with reality
At this stage in the game?
At least Farage is honest! Imagine that? All our potential political leaders are standing on platforms less honest than Nigel Farage?
And they wonder why he’s running rings around them?
you’ve spent this entire thread sneering at centerism (sic)
Yes of course I have. I'm probably the only one left here who still thinks a compromise is the only way out of this. How very extreme of me.
I'm not sneering at centrism though, I'm calling out the snobbery which many remainers are falling back on because they can't accept they were beaten by an unlikely coalition of pissed off lower class people and deluded empire nostalgics.
I don’t even care about their policies that much.
Yeah I noticed.
So how is a compromise, that pleases no-one, going to stop the "brexit-betrayal" myth peddled by the likes of Farage?
I’m not sneering at centrism though, I’m calling out the snobbery which many remainers are falling back on because they can’t accept they were beaten by an unlikely coalition of pissed off lower class people and deluded empire nostalgics.
The centre can't be seen to support a deal - this is where I disagree with people like Rory Stewart. If the centre supports a deal, they will be the target for a stab in the back myth on the right and a sell out anti-globalist myth on the left. Between them the left and right would not only kill the centre but pull the corpse of the centre right and lefts body apart like vultures.
The only two options are a no deal, in which the myths of the right can be called out (if they can, people have a good way of ignoring reality - for example Germans turning away from holocaust film reels shown by the allies or fighting through the fire bombing) or remain... where a centre and deradicalized left coalition - all singing from the same hymn - might be able to keep the Faragists from power.
The left needs to stop heading down the path that it is and join centerist remainers in putting forth a positive vision for the future that helps to deradicalize the voting base. It needs to stop finding people to blame for the issues that the North faces. It needs to stop appealing to voters who may vote for the Brexit party and the legitimisation of those peoples feelings, because the narrative is leading to an ever spiralling competition for peripheral voters. In short, it needs to show leadership, take control and help define the political narrative for the good - which is not what Corbyn has done. He played a game to use Brexit to get into power and it has bitten his party and this country on the arse.
Yeah I noticed.
You've missed my point.
Policies are pedestrian and don't even tell you half the story in terms of why a party or mass movement is popular.
Real politics takes place in the space of language, emotion, mythology and imagery.
Sensible Labour policies and telling people that they are more important than Brexit are not enough to counter the emotional division caused by Farage or their own internal lunatics. What will get people to vote is remain - that vote then needs to be exploited via some kind of emotional plea to rationalist anti-Corbyn/anti-Faragist sentiment. People have to feel as if they want rationality back, they have to feel that they have had enough of the upside down, postmodernist, fake news dominated, stranger things world that the past decade has heralded.
Bloody hell Binners. While I sympathise with much of your hyperbolic writing, Farage is anything but honest.
Of course he’s not. He’s a lying fraud. He’s the lowest form of human life, but he’s putting forward a proposition that he fully intends to carry through. Elect me and i’ll Take is out of the E.U.
That’s it. End of story.
What he plans to do then ... privatise the NHS, turn us into a tax haven aren’t even being questioned by the media*. Which is a total dereliction of duty on their part
Andrew Rawnsley summed it up in today’s Observer. By having no policies or manifesto, he is providing a blank sheet of paper for angry disaffected people (of which there are plenty) to project their grievances onto!
It’s genius in its simplicity, but it’s a trick you can only pull for a very limited timeframe
* with the honourable exception of channel 4 news who are now barred from the frogmaster general
A great article by the New York Times last week
Nigel Farage is the most dangerous man in Britain
Labour aren’t centrist – they are further left than the German SDP. This is besides the point, I don’t even care about their policies that much.
So labourt are hard left in your book but you don't know about their policies
go on - once again. a single policy that labour have that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition. Just one tiny weeny little policy. and don't make up nonsense about brexit that is not labour policy. come on - one tiny weeny little economic or social policy
And maintaining that anyone who criticises him is some sort of unthinking, ill -informed lackey and capitalist slave to the military-industrial complex is just incredibly patronising
And where did I say that? all I said is you r hatred of Corbyn completely blinds you to the reality. You have bought tory propaganda wholesale
Back out of this thread for my sanity.
Corbyn is just the same as Farage in his economic nationalism and populism. They’re two cheeks of the same arse
Farage is the same as Corbyn? I've heard it all now!
the snobbery which many remainers are falling back on
Love this. Despite everyone pointing outback they Brexit is being pushed through by public school boys & girls with no real feel for the risk it is exposing those of us that have always had to work for a living to. Where's the snobbery? We're not the ones claiming that Brexit must be executed to placate the "working class". Every Brexit voter I know is doing alright thank you very much. Brexit is not the project of the working class. It is the boondoggle of the rich, and they want us to pay for it. Any pay, and pay, and pay…
You can dismiss it all you like Molls, but Corbyn and Farage are very similar in the’y’ve built themselves up as populist demagogues, one to the far right, one to the far left, the way they deal with dissent, and the way they propagate their message through their outriders with dog whistle populism on (relatively unregulated) social media
Both rail against ‘the establishment’ despite being about as establishment as it’s possible to be
I could go on. Just because they have radically different messages doesn’t mean they’re motivations aren’t the same. They very much are
So labourt are hard left in your book but you don’t know about their policies
go on – once again. a single policy that labour have that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition. Just one tiny weeny little policy. and don’t make up nonsense about brexit that is not labour policy. come on – one tiny weeny little economic or social policy
I'm not saying they are hard left, but their policies ARE further left than the SDP if you care to look at the SDPs manifesto. They are certainly not centre or for that matter even centre left.
I’m calling out the snobbery which many remainers are falling back on because they can’t accept they were beaten
Ie, "we won you lost shut up and get over it." FFS, it's not a football match. Because herein lies the problem. Ultimately whatever our views we're all on the same side, we all "win" or "lose" collectively.
Are you ever actually going to engage with replies people are giving to you, or are you just going to keep making the same point over and over (AKA "doing a Binners") interspersed with non-sequiturs? Because we're all wasting our time here otherwise.
go on then rayban - what policies do labour have that are not firmly in the European social democratic tradition. ( that encompasses a lot of parties from all over Europe)
Just one tiny policy
In scotland we have 3 parties to the left of labour
three parties
You really don't.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2017
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again
Sorry - I will never ever appease this lot. It sickens me that the likes of Widdicombe are representing our country in Europe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48491731
I could go on. Just because they have radically different messages doesn’t mean they’re motivations aren’t the same. They very much are
You've cherry picked some similarities but they are polar opposites. I can't quite imagine Farage going on anti-apartheid marches in the 80s, can you?
They both want power but for utterly different reasons. This is pretty important.
TJ - what policies do labour have that are not firmly in line with the European Social Democratic Tradition
Erm... leaving the E.U. doesn’t seem very much in line with the European Social Democratic Tradition does it really?
Everything after that is pretty academic isn’t it, really?
We really do rayban. snp - raising taxes on the rich to improve benefits while reducing taxes on the poor. Redistribution of wealth is a key issue on right / left and on this as on many other issues the snp are well to the left of labour. The greens are further left then we also have assorted hard left socialists. SNP have already produced a greater redistribution of wealth in a way no recent labour government have and in a way that current labour policy barely meets
so go on - what are these labour policies that are not in the european social democratic tradition?
Just one tiny weeny policy that is not centre left social democratic? Just one?
Molly - they both want power for exactly the same reasons. To pull us out of the E.U.
Both know, full well that this will lead to an economic meltdown, both know this will massively impact in the working class who’s lives will be devastated
The only difference is that one sees this as a result in itself. The other sees it as a means to an end, where this suffering will lead to people rejecting capitalism and electing a socialist government with guess who at the helm?
They’re both self serving career politicians and egomaniacs who’s desires are exactly the same and couldn’t give a toss who had to suffer to get them there
That new stateman article is pure pish. classic london centric with zero knowledge or understanding.
what do you call raising taxes on top earners and reducing them on the poor? Increasing benefits? making higher education free? Encouraging community landownership with compulsory purchase powers and state funding to do so? extending the franchise to 16yr olds?
NO they are not hard left but are to the left of labour.
so just one real policy ( not binners made up stance on the EU) but one real labour policy that is not firmly centrist social democratic in the european tradition.
Labour under corbyn has moved from centre right to center left.