[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[i]@molgrips as many immigrants say they are coming to do jobs the Brits won't do not least as the wages are too low. Think about that for a minute.[/i]

Seasonal work though is just that, seasonal - so folk are either working, so can't take on seasonal work or they're unemployed. Also seasonal work is often in areas of low population, so there just isn't the people there to do the work.

If you're unemployed while you will earn more money working it's not enough to cover yourself when it takes a further 6 weeks or so for the Govt to restart your benefits. Just not worth it.

The whole racist immigration row is a complete red herring. After a Brexit, we want a free trade agreement with the EU, which will certainly - as it does with existing agreements - require free movement of people.

On illegal immigration, a Brexit vote will hardly tear down the camp at Sangatte, or stop people climbing into lorries. We also aren't suddenly going to employ 20,000 border guards to patrol our coast.

I am no great supporter of the structure of the EU, but I am completely unconvinced by the lack of definitive agreements from VL.

My postal vote went in yesterday - Remain.

I'm sorry - can't let this go anymore - it is referendums not referenda - it is a gerund so the plural means vote on (multiple) things - not multiple votes.

All a matter of taste.

If I knew what the Latin equivalent of Chapeau was I'd post it

Petasus, according to google. There is an easy illustration of the point, the motto of Victoria University of Manachester is "Arduus ad solem", singular because there is one sun whereas the motto of the RAF is "Ardua ad astra", plural because there are a number of stars.

Firstly many sources say immigration a net benefit

My Bulgarian builder and his Plaster mates has made a bloody good job of my new kitchen.

@br then we need to fix that, if someone is prepared to travel a 1000 miles for summer work then its not a hardship to do the same from one part of the UK to another

Good job they come.

So they take low wages plus in work benefits plus child allowance sent home whilst we pay welfare to those without work. Has anyone looked at this ? We don't know and Leave cannot ask the civil service as Cameron forbade ( @mefty 😉 ) it

The whole racist immigration row is a complete red herring. After a Brexit, we want a free trade agreement with the EU, which will certainly - as it does with existing agreements - require free movement of people.

Then I say we reject it. If we do sign such an agreement we will outside the EU be able to say zero benefits fro anyone without a UK passport for 5 (?) years including all in-work benefits. This will mean the people that come will support themselves totally.

meanwhile in lowestoft Borris was greeting VL campaigners

only they forgot to cover up their English Defense League tattoos

[img] [/img]

We are showing our country up in a vile light and right now I'm utterly ashamed to be British.

Yip.

Flag waving nationalism of any hue is always pretty ugly. You would have hoped that by the 21st century we'd have learnt where it tends to lead, and moved on from it

Apparently not

Thirdly I would be shocked if we didn't have to conform to EU migration rules if we wanted a free trade agreement as movement of people is intrinsically linked to an open market.

That's the case for Switzerland, or so I'm told.

I'm sorry - can't let this go anymore - it is referendums not referenda - it is a gerund so the plural means vote on (multiple) things - not multiple votes.

The whole racist immigration row is a complete red herring. After a Brexit, we want a free trade agreement with the EU, which will certainly - as it does with existing agreements - require free movement of people.

Then I say we reject it. If we do sign such an agreement we will outside the EU be able to say zero benefits fro anyone without a UK passport for 5 (?) years including all in-work benefits. This will mean the people that come will support themselves totally.

You really do live in your own stationary orbit don't you Jammers? In step with the equally cloud-cuckoo land leavers, everything you say seems to be coming from some mythical all-powerful position, where the EU is going to be begging us to make a trade agreement, and we'll simply issue our list of demands, and they'll instantly agree, and sign on the line....

[img] [/img]

@molgrips as many immigrants say they are coming to do jobs the Brits won't do not least as the wages are too low. Think about that for a minute.

So employers are paying under minimum wage? They shouldn't. If they are paying minimum wage then they aren't too low as lots of British people ARE working for minimum wage.

Sadly, this referendum will be decided not by enlightened self interests, but misinformed, un-enlightend and provincial attitudes.
...am strongly considering moving myself and my family to France or Germany in the event of a leave vote.

ransos - Member

That's the case for Switzerland, or so I'm told.

...and Norway.

So they take low wages plus in work benefits plus child allowance sent home whilst we pay welfare to those without work. Has anyone looked at this ? We don't know and Leave cannot ask the civil service as Cameron forbade ( @mefty ) it

There isn't a Latin plural for a gerund

I was taking a short cut - as a plural it is a gerundive like arduus (sing.) and ardua (plur.) in the mottos, which follow what they are describing.

I was taking a short cut - as a plural it is a gerundive like arduus (sing.) and ardua (plur.) in the mottos, which follow what they are describing.

I'd be happy to discuss it at a meeting. Put it on the agendum.

meanwhile in lowestoft Borris was greeting VL campaigners

only they forgot to cover up their English Defense League tattoos

Doesn't look like any EDL logo I've seen more like a baby. Could it possibly be the baby's initials. Bad racist baby 🙁

Doesn't look like any EDL logo I've seen

he was questioned by reporters and admitted he was a member once
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-meets-vote-leave-8204574

So they take low wages plus in work benefits plus child allowance sent home whilst we pay welfare to those without work. Has anyone looked at this ?

It's a subsidy we pay to wealthy employers such as Mr Ashley . The employers are the ones who gain from this. Why do we allow employers to pay less than the real living wage? Neither Remain nor Leave will answer that question.

he was questioned by reporters and admitted he was a member once
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-meets-vote-leave-8204574

You never linked to that before but now it clear. Still very strange to put that under a baby.

are a net contributor to the system.

Yes, it gets repeated and repeated, but without the caveat in the report that their calculation was static - I.e. It excluded future costs as those (predominantly young, fit and active) immigrants had kids, got older, retired etc.

You never linked to that before but now it clear. Still very strange to put that under a baby.

Meanwhile, this could be a young Boris.

Yes, it gets repeated and repeated, but without the caveat in the report that their calculation was static - I.e. It excluded future costs as those (predominantly young, fit and active) immigrants had kids, got older, retired etc.

IF they stay that long - ISTR reading that a lot don't.

But assuming they do then as they retire they've paid in a lot over the years, plus their kids will by that point likely be working and paying their way in taxes too and so on. In other words, no different to anyone else born here.

By calling immigration a problem you are calling population growth a problem, aren't you? And there are environmental negatives to increased population sure, but that doesn't matter quite so much where people actually live, within the EU at least.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/re-using-nazi-propaganda-good-for-the-environment-says-farage-20160617109593

It excluded future costs as those (predominantly young, fit and active) immigrants had kids, got older, retired etc.

Do you mean just like the rest of us will do one day? You included..

Would you rather we were all knocked off once we were no longer productive?...

[img] [/img]

This map is useful: [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/ ]EU funding by area[/url]

What is unbelievable is that apparently only 10% of people living in Wales want to remain, whereas this map clearly shows they (along with cornwall) have a massive amount to loose

Do you mean just like the rest of us will do one day? You included

Precisely - which is why a calculation of "net benefit" between 2000 and 2010 or 14 is misleading without the caveat, as it accounts for tax contributions without including the (hard to predict) future liabilities.

Precisely - which is why a calculation of "net benefit" between 2000 and 2010 or 14 is misleading without the caveat, as it accounts for tax contributions without including the (hard to predict) future liabilities.

Which means you'll potentially be a drain as well those pesky immigrants?

No-one has mentioned the CIA's involement in all this - it explains why Obama is keen for us to remain :

3:35 onwards :

[i]@br then we need to fix that, if someone is prepared to travel a 1000 miles for summer work then its not a hardship to do the same from one part of the UK to another[/i]

You just don't understand do you? Have you ever signed on and/or got additional benefits - they don't just turn up tomorrow, nor is an easy thing for them to be back-dated. This is something the UK can fix, itself. It just doesn't. And yet another reason of why I am very fearful of Leave as my experience of dealing with the UK's Governmental bureaucracy means that all I can see is massive cost and complexity if we have Brexit.

You just don't understand do you? Have you ever signed on and/or got additional benefits - they don't just turn up tomorrow, nor is an easy thing for them to be back-dated. This is something the UK can fix, itself. It just doesn't. And yet another reason of why I am very fearful of Leave as my experience of dealing with the UK's Governmental bureaucracy means that all I can see is massive cost and complexity if we have Brexit.

@BR

and this sums up my feelings, all the anti EU comments are almost without exception nothing to do with the EU And everything to do with Westminster, voting leave doesn't actually fix anything!

Out

No been reading this for a while, so I guess youse are still stuck on the same loop. 😆 but anyhow a question spring to mind, what happens if england votes out but the combined votes of a pro eu Scotland and NI tip it towards a Yes vote? What would the English reaction to that be?

@br I have signed on before, after a month or so I stopped as I thought it immoral to claim the money when really I wasn't interested in getting a job. Anyway, I said we should address the problem - I am open to suggestions

What is unbelievable is that apparently only 10% of people living in Wales want to remain, whereas this map clearly shows they (along with cornwall) have a massive amount to loose

@ferrals I really don't understand why this surprises you. It is the poor, unemployed, low or un-skilled who have most to lose from uncontrolled immigration. The polling statistics have clearly shown this group are strongly pro-leave. I know many folk here don't want to read what I post at face value but sometimes it makes sense to hear the arguments from the "other side"

What would the English reaction to that be?

None other than accepting thats how democracy works

By calling immigration a problem you are calling population growth a problem, aren't you? And there are environmental negatives to increased population sure, but that doesn't matter quite so much where people actually live, within the EU at least.

The interesting thing is many developed countries the birth rate is low as parents are worried about whether they can provide for their children and the impact on their carears of extended breaks or only one partner working. So people are making the choice that a smaller family and by extension a relatively smaller nation is better.

Now governments are wrestling with state pension funding and have come to the genius (heavily sarcastic fyi) decsion that miore people is the solution, this of course just makes the future problem worse.

What would the English reaction to that be?
None other than accepting thats how democracy works

For me, the Spectator article summarised the issue very succinctly and why a vote leave is the only sensible option.

Yep, better off alone. Hermits do so well - Its the only way.

flangaj careful. You must follow what Cameron, Osbourne Blair and Brown tell you that you should do.

Architects and proper thinkers of how to manage an economy through soundbites and thousands of deaths and instability globally.

But hey, carry on with your 'farage and bumbling Boris' comments remain crowd.

errr... I'm still watching the debate and floating although clearly erring on the side of remain due to the more balanced reasoning that the remain camp are putting forward..
I also know that I've debated with a lot of STW brexiteers in the past over various issues which has led me to the belief that some of them are not very bright..

That said, I'm taking this voting lark very seriously as it's one of the more important political decisions of my lifetime.. Usually we're voting for which gang of inbred toffs to lead us down the garden path next, but this time we could well be waving goodbye to the safety of having anyone police that toffery..

With all that said, there are some heartily earnest and seemingly bright folk determined that brexit is the solution so please could I appeal to you to help me with a few of the finer points so that I can feel well informed in my decision..

The one I'm stuck on here at the moment is the term 'uncontrolled immigration'

Could you explain to me why you think that will become likely in the event of a remain vote?

The one I'm stuck on here at the moment is the term 'uncontrolled immigration'
Could you explain to me why you think that will become likely in the event of a remain vote?

Yeah, but that's clearly bolleaux, hence the need for clarification

What's the brexit stance on foreign aid too? Is it OK to send 12 billion overseas in foreign aid to some countries but "save" 8bn or so from our eu contributions, or should we pull up the drawbridge and put the full 20 bills into the good old NHS?

Yunki immigration from the EU is totally unrestricted, it has to be. We can only turn someone away if they pose a clear and immediate threat to our security. If we Remain this will only increase as oir economy outperforms stagnating Europe and the EU expands further (some of the candidate countries have average annual earnings of £7.5pa)

@thepurist I am firmly in favour of the foreign aid budget, as you know I am equally firmly vote Leave. As you probably know UKIP think the foreign aid budget is excessive, for example they think its wrong we give £500m to India a country with nuclear weapons, a space programm and some of the worlds richest people.