[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The clever people are focused on minimising the damage all round.

Is this a reference to civil servants? If so, we can see what happens when their suggestions don't match the dreams of the politicans heading their departments. I don't need to talk what has been going on lower down the pecking order, you can read any newspaper to see the "grownups" right at the top of the departments being pushed aside when they won't talk unicorns.

I stand corrected, sixty-four.

IGM sorry yes misinterpreted what you said eg the should bit. I thought you were saying that I thought he would resign. My misunderstanding. Having reread what you said from comfort of train, then yes you are correct. But frankly I am lost with this papers issue!

Kelvin - yes but not just them. Partly agree but less concerned about departmental ministers and more by the figure heads like AF

With both the bill and the Irish border we saw two brilliant compromise solutions delivered. Why brilliant? Because both allowed each side to claim some victory while maintaining some wiggle room. The wording was a masterful escpecially re Irish border. Hence my confidence that there are some genuinely brilliant people doing the hard work here. The subtleties are remarkable and show the ability to attempt a win:win. That level of thinking and negotiation skills is way, way above the heads of DD which is why I am less stressed about him and his lies and incompetence.

So still comfortable that progress will be made. Just fed up by the pace and the 24/7 BS that surrounds it

Are both sides making it up as they go along? For sure. That’s one reason why it’s so compelling(ly awful) 😉

What a great joy the last day has been.

The EU has been getting some of it’s own medicine.

Long have we been hearing about how just one of the 27 can veto a deal or how Verhofstat and the MEPs can vote down a deal agreed by Barnier, Tusk and Junket

Now the EU can see crystal clear that the same applies to the UK.

Bravo the DUP although this text would have been voted down by the Tories too as Ruth Davidson made clear today

“The Bill”. I assume people have seen that the EU has conceded that any payments it may receive will be “as and when due” and nothing will be paid upfront.

No deal, no money.

How about we do our own impact assessments for the industries we work in.

I'll start. UK housing.

Land - should be ok
Materials - mostly ok. Nordic timber could be a bit of an issue. Bricks in short supply.
Staff - currently about 20% EU and stuffed without them. Attempts to train UK staff have repeatedly failed to produce numbers needed.
Legislation - not particularly integrated anyway.
Export - we don't export houses.

Overall - mostly ok unless economy tanks and people cant afford to buy new houses. However we'll be luck to build 200000 a year and not a hope of the proposed 300000 units.

Nice spinning Jamba

In any normal world Davis would be on the back benches by Friday.
I bet he isn’t though, because Brexit (despite a load of good work behind the scenes by talented bureaucrats from Whitehall and elsewhere) is only being held together by PR.
And the PR would struggle to survive Davis getting sacked.

No deal, no money.

That's not what Hammond said. Where are you getting your version from?

jambalaya - Member

“The Bill”. I assume people have seen that the EU has conceded that any payments it may receive will be “as and when due” and nothing will be paid upfront.

No deal, no money.

Nope - exactly 100% wrong. What we agreed is to pay our debts ad future commitments ( or some of them) Not accepted by the EU side anyway from what I see.

There is real concern about drug availability and cost post brexit.

Graphs on p38 an eye opener …

I don’t normally bother with the Torygraph, but this is bang in. Great headline too

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/06/shameless-david-davis-just-jay-inbetweeners-suit/ ]Shameless David Davis is just Jay from the Inbetweeners in a suit[/url]

I guess this is what Jamba is taking his view from

This is what Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told the Treasury committee about the UK’s “Brexit bill” payments not being conditional on the UK getting a trade deal.

Asked if the exit payments would be conditional on there being a future trade deal, he replied:

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation. But I find it inconceivable that we as a nation would be walking away from an obligation that we recognised as an obligation. That’s just not a credible scenario. That’s not the kind of country we are. And frankly it would not make us a credible partner for future international agreements.

As if things weren't going badly enough, No10 slaps down Hammond. PMOS: "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and that applies to the financial settlement".

So the rats are still fighting in a sack. Hammond clearly understands the situation. No 10 has to appease the rabids. They cannot even get a consistent line out between them

One thing is 100% certain without agreeing to pay unconditionally no deal will be granted.

Now the EU can see crystal clear that the same applies to the UK.

Irish Forign minister

Simon Coveney

Ireland like UK wants to move Brexit to phase 2, where we will support a comprehensive EU-UK trade deal facilitating barrier free, seamless trade. But we must finalise Phase 1 issues credibly first. Our asks r not unreasonable but are important

Now the EU can see crystal clear that the same applies to the UK.

apart from the fact for the EU agreement has to be reached in the parli8ament and individual legislatures.

In the UK its between tiny unrepresentative factions

Nope - exactly 100% wrong.....Not accepted by the EU side anyway [b]from what I see[/b].

😀

But thank you TJ for posting evidence (Irish quote) that refutes your argument about progress and ability and willingness to get a deal done. 100% correct, no really.

You see how much more entertaining it is when you don't have a kilfille. Imagine missing these pearls of wisdom ;-). Keep 'em coming

Yeah because Britain not paying is exit bill is exactly what you'd do if you wanted to laugh yourself as a global trading powerhouse .

As if the Brexie delusions of grandeur weren't baffling enough, we have migrated like this !

Davis is the perfect example of a brexiter; confused, deceitful and way out of his depth.

Indeed. If we don't pay the bill who will ever trust us to uphold a treaty.

He might be out if his depth but he understands what the deal s about better than you guys judging by those comments,

Unlike the gNats who were prepared to renage on their obligations, we have agreed to honour them. But more comedy gold and wonderful irony!

I would love to say to David Davis' face what he should do with his Brexit, but I don't think I could stand the sight of him trying to shove it up his elbow and wondering what he is doing wrong.

Oh, and Jamby, ninfan et al.

Your other mate is currently in front of the world's media trying to provoke a war in the Middle East whilst proclaiming to work in the interests of peace.

You couldn't make this shit up.

What's a bigger shambles - Brexit or the White House?

Downing Street has dismissed Philip Hammond’s claim that the UK will definitely pay a “Brexit bill” to the EU as it leaves even if it does not get a trade deal. (See 4.41pm.) Giving evidence to the Commons Treasury committee, Hammond argued that the UK would not be a credible country if it did not pay its debts. But Number 10 said that they were working on the basis that “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”, and that this applied to finance too. This is an important faultline because Tory Brexiters think the UK should only pay the EU in return for a good trade deal, while the EU insists the financial settlement and the future trade relationship should not be linked.

And who holds all the cards? all that Mays statement will do ( apart from appease the rabids on the back benches) is harden the EUs position and to ensure that they get the payment agreement in cast iron before any trade talks.

tomd - Member
It's getting completely surreal. Just sickened by it all now.

Maybe we'll all wake up tomorrow from some sort of Red Dwarf style "Despair Squid" hallucination and everything will be ok.

In the latest from Iain Duncan Smith...

RECAP: Nice man Edna Kelly was helping develop a border droneforce but he was forced out by Leo Veradkar who is now under pressure in a vote of no confidence from Sinn Fein President Michael D Higgins

😆

DD - there's so much wrong with IDS's statement it's difficult to know where to start. Good ol' "Edna", eh..?

DD - there's so much wrong with IDS's statement it's difficult to know where to start. Good ol' "Edna", eh..?

It's not an actual quote! 😯

Although, it's not that far off the shite he was spouting the other day as he explained to the Channel 4 newsreader how a presidential election was driving the Irish government position.

Of all the current Heads of State floating about at the moment Michael D. is the only one I'd credit with actual integrity.

Not surprising Ireland wants free trade, that's the easy one, especially as they are deeper into fiscal dumping than the UK. The free trade talks will hit serious trouble with half a dozen of the 27, you'll see if ever a border in St george's channel solves the Irish issue.

I've just been catching up on today's discussion here. When I read this,

IWhat a great joy the last day has been.

The EU has been getting some of it’s own medicine.

... I literally had to get up and walk away from the keyboard for five minutes, as it's not possible for me to ban myself.

#fakenews #failingstw etc Cougar, if your going to have delusions you might as well have the good ones

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When can I expect these clever people behind the scenes to start delivering some good news and do I need to worry about the EU having cleverer people behind the scenes?

I think TMH has made it perfectly clear that there's no one cleverer than him.

So either the "clever people" are just putting on a show and have already agreed it all or it's going to be a massively hard negotiation with a much stronger trading partner who knows what they want.

the "clever people" are just putting on a show

I did think that a few months back, but it's becoming increasingly clear with each passing day that, in reality, the powers that be simply have their thumbs up thier bums.

BBC this morning:

Ambassadors of the 27 EU member states are understood to be "waiting for something from London".

I hope they are not holding their breath.

Looks like Chris Grayling has chimed in, too. He’s demonstrated that he’s at least consistent in his incompetence. If it wasn’t for the wrong competition from IDS, Leadsom, Truss and Johnson, he’d be a beacon of stunning inadequacy.

Seriously, I thought that the Conservative Party was meant to be a meritocracy?

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Special deliver has been delayed

Ambassadors of the 27 EU member states are understood to be "waiting for something from London.

Seriously, I thought that the Conservative Party was meant to be a meritocracy?

What makes you think there is a massive pool of talent in the Tory backbenches? I've not seen much evidence to support that idea.

New Conservative Party logo?

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Don't remember that room in the original Portal.

The real negotiations don't involve anyone from rEU… they are happening here… well, one key minister suggests they haven't even started yet… but it's more likely that they have started without him.