[Closed] Drinking coffee? Please make it a fairly traded coffee!

Maccy D's coffee is well priced, tastes OK and they have wifi, clean toilets and ample parking. I wouldn't want it on a daily basis but on a road trip the golden arches are my coffee shop of choice.

I'll give the film a watch later.

no

Whittards refuse to sign up to Fairtrade as it's pricefixing with a conscience.

So, thanks for the guilt trip, but I'll drink what I like.

My coffee officianado friend tells me that McDonalds coffee actually tastes much better that you expect.

I'm a bit cynical about the "fair trade" thing... its a bit like 'free range eggs' isn't it? What I mean is someone has created a standard that we define as "fair trade" but I think you can safely assume that people in the UK making the buying decisions on coffee, sugar, chocolate etc, still wouldn't work in the conditions that you get in 'fair trade'. Perhaps "a little bit fairer trade" might be a better name!

Now of course a lot of the world's crops don't get bought by consumers, but are processed into other products - and just like the eggs that make your mayonnaise are probably bought on price not ethics. Fair trade prices are (usually) set regionally or nationally - which means it is still easier to exploit the poorest countries to produce our products.

There are strong arguments for producing our food locally - not flying it in from the otherside of the world, but I can buy Kenyan runner beans with a fair trade logo but not UK or french ones. Obviously this might not be possible for coffee - but generally speaking it would be better for the environment - and the economy if we sourced goods closer to home. Indeed if you wanted to make the 'world better' and make yourself healthier at the same time you'd probably stop drinking coffee altogether! Of course that might force coffee farmers into producing other crops... ...perhaps drugs - where exploitation applies throughout the supply chain.

Is it not all a "social construct" to let middle class people feel better about themselves, whilst providing a comfortable income for the various administrators of the system that protects "the poor" from exploitation - whilst presumably the person answering the phone at Fair Trade HQ still gets paid significantly more that the guy picking the beans? I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't be concerned about where our food comes from or the standards of production - but is the answer really to look for a little magic label? I don't necessarily object to the labelling approach but I do object to being lectured at by anyone who decides that my ethics are not the same as theirs. Still if a little green and blue label makes you feel better about yourself on you go.

I've found McDonald's to be hit & miss, when's good, it's okay, when its bad, it's really bad.

Your choice, that's why I mention the documentary, anyone with an ounce of decent morals (morals are opinions, again your choice!) would reconsider their choice.

Just trying to spread the word to help fellow humans getting from getting shat on!

Still if a little green and blue label makes you feel better about yourself on you go.

Easy to be cynical about everything and use that as an excuse for making no effort whatsoever to exercise moral choices. Not saying fair trade is a magical solution but your attitude is a bit of a cop-out IMO.

Poly,

Fair points and that's why I specifically mentioned "fairly traded" over "fair trade"

Many cooperative farmers get a much better deal over "fair trade"

The simple fact is global export/import will continue, let's support the poor folk from been pissed on.

Also agree on buying local, if everyone in the country purchased the British equivalent from this, I'm sure we'd be in a much better situation, economically & ecologically

[img] [/img]

Just trying to spread the word to help fellow humans getting from getting shat on!

Not a bad summary really. Fair trade may not be perfect but it is still better than straight aid and way better than nothing.

Also agree on buying local, if everyone in the country purchased the British equivalent from this, I'm sure we'd be in a much better situation, economically & ecologically

I very much doubt, even before the major decline in manufacturing in the UK, that there was capacity to produce the wants and needs of all 60m Brits without importing from China.

I very much doubt, even before the major decline in manufacturing in the UK, that there was capacity to produce the wants and needs of all 60m Brits without importing from China.

Yeah probably, was just making an oversized point.

ISTR reading in the 'Eye that when Kenco went Fairtrade, their annual spend on coffee increased by £140k. Guess how much they spent on advertising that they were now trading with the logo? £14 million...

Black Gold indeed!

Kinda why I don't buy Kenco!

I avoid fair trade whenever possible because:

1. some taste shite. (think Green & Black chocolate is the only item I think taste good. Forget coffee beans ... I am not buying that!)

2. they can be priced higher - my hard earn blood money drain away ... no they are not getting it.

3. it's very PC.

4. I hate being referred to as an unfair person for buying non-fair trade products. If you really want to be fair then charge me 50% less.

5. another form of benchmark that benefits the few.

Given that Starbucks has been running CAFE for years and are the biggest buyer of Fair Trade Certified coffee in the world, and Costa has it's own Foundation charity, there is more than one way to 'do the right thing' and more than one source for information.

I avoid fair trade whenever possible because:

None of them are particularly valid reasons - just a bit selfish and me me me TBH. If your point was to demonstrate your chewcentric world, you've made it.

TooTall - Member
None of them are particularly valid reasons - just a bit selfish and me me me TBH. If your point was to demonstrate your chewcentric world, you've made it.

Yes, that's me I am afraid so my reasons as I don't buy a single bit of the propaganda.

If it's fair then everyone should be treated the same and not just some.

And so the rich keep getting richer

If it's fair then everyone should be treated the same and not just some.

So until everyone in the world has the same deal, you don't support something that is at least heading in the right direction? What part of Fair Trade is propaganda BTW?

TooTall - Member

So until everyone in the world has the same deal, you don't support something that is at least heading in the right direction? What part of Fair Trade is propaganda BTW?

That's positive discrimination and that too will have negative impact on others.

Propaganda - saying that they are fair but what they do not say is that they might be killing off some of middlemen/persons livelihood. They too are human that need to earn a living. What fair trade is doing is to cut out the middle men/persons and get a bigger slice of profit for themselves.

tacopowell - Member

And so the rich keep getting richer

How do you define rich?

A rich person in Papua New Guinea may not even earn as much as a London Tube driver a year.

Coffee farmers don't need the middlemen to undervalue them, they need to value their coffee fairly between the farmers and consumers, simples, it's these middlemen that are getting richer and richer at the expense of the farmers who are getting poorer and poorer, there's no fairness in that!

As far as defining rich? I would consider the middlemen, exploiting more than what is rightfully theirs as been rich, of course I'm sure a coffee farmer would look at a tube drivers wages and regard him as been rich but this doesn't change the middlemans injustice.

What fair trade is doing is to cut out the middle men/persons and get a bigger slice of profit for themselves.

Wow. Just wow. If that is how you interpret what Fair Trade does, then you have a really unique understanding.

so why do all you boys buys diamonds then?? see the film Blood Diamond and read all about it?
De Beers "created" it to make money, spending 3 months salary is all drivel and myth too!

TooTall - Member

Wow. Just wow. If that is how you interpret what Fair Trade does, then you have a really unique understanding.

Yes, Fair Trade becomes the new middlemen but this time they are in the developed world and much more powerful.

Yes, unique and I am a unique person (positive or negative depending on your views and I accept that).

Okay, enough about me as I am getting slightly light headed from all the flattery.

Not seen Blood Diamonds, I assume there's more to it than just diamonds?

Might watch it tonight.

I refuse to drink fairly traded, sustainable, ecologically sourced, local coffee bought direct from the farmer.

Because I don't like the taste of coffee.

Yes, Fair Trade becomes the new middlemen but this time they are in the developed world and much more powerful.

So who were the middlemen that have been replaced?

Traders in the country the coffee originates?

Or these guys?

[img] [/img]

I refuse to drink fairly traded, sustainable, ecologically sourced, local coffee bought direct from the farmer.
Because I don't like the taste of coffee.

Best answer yet!

Maccy D's coffee is well priced, tastes OK and they have wifi, clean toilets and ample parking

But they also have teenagers and who the hell wants to mix with them!?

so why do all you boys buys diamonds then?

To loosen girls knickers of course. Don't see the point otherwise.

Does cocaine have a Fairtrade equivalent?

Mcdonalds coffee over costa at the services every time + there is enough left for a Mcflurry!

1. some taste shite. (think Green & Black chocolate is the only item I think taste good. Forget coffee beans ... I am not buying that!)

Try Co-Op's own brand coffee's, we used to get through a couple of bags a week when we had a coffee machine on the spare desk and the co-op stuff was consistently better than a lot of the other 'branded' stuff.

I'm not that bothered about a fair trade sticker, as long as it tastes good and comes from a source that I trust. Mostly [url= http://www.hasblog.co.uk/direct-trade-sucks ]here[/url]

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Try Co-Op's own brand coffee's, we used to get through a couple of bags a week when we had a coffee machine on the spare desk and the co-op stuff was consistently better than a lot of the other 'branded' stuff.

I will give them a try again to see how good they are as I finished my 3kg of Robusta coffee beans I bought from TK Maxx few months ago.

Putting the sentiment aside, fiarvtrade is such a twisted name its a sodding lie. How about lets ignore common sense and normal market forces or some such. Anything that trades on sentiment and artificially bends rules is wrong.Its like me and Cav in a sprint only I start 10 metres from the line and he starts 500m out.That aint fair.
not disagreeing with the sentiment, i just hate the idea of giving some people an advantage being called fair

[img] [/img]

Obese-Boy points at the fairly traded coffee, admiring it's upstanding sentiments.

There's a nice independent coffee shop in Manchester which did a tasting evening one night and during that, the guy said that Fairtrade was basically price fixing.

Coffee is the second most traded commodity in the world (after oil) and the price can fluctuate quite widely. Fairtrade just guarantees that the farmer will always get [x] for it but at times [x] can be considerably lower than the actual market value. Equally, sometimes it can be higher than the market value but it's hardly the solution to solving world poverty that some people seem to think.

it's hardly the solution to solving world poverty that some people seem to think

No, but a known price enables the farmer to plan ahead and many people are far happier with a known steady income over massive swings, especially if they have no cushion. Would you (and your family) give up your regular wage for the possibility of getting 30% more or 30% less depending upon factors that are outside your control?

Probably not.

Simple really, Starbucks, Costa, Nero all taste terrible,
McDonald's is fair trade coffee but its McDonald's so it's gonna taste like stale piss.

McDonalds coffee is ok, as are all those others you mention.

i just hate the idea of giving some people an advantage being called fair

The point is that the rich Western corporations buying coffee already have a massive advantage. Fair Trade ideas are simply an attempt to redress the balance.

Any huge buyer can buy up everything a producer makes, so they depend on the buyer. Then the buyer has the producer by the balls and can lower its prices until the producer is on the poverty line. This is a very well known and widely used practice. It's just not very nice to the producers.

Fair trade simply gives either a tiny bit of the profits of the rich buyer or a tiny bit of the disposable income of the rich end customers to the poverty stricken producers. Can't see a problem with that principle tbh.

How about lets ignore common sense and normal market forces

What's so great about market forces? They create winners and losers.

Simple really, Starbucks, Costa, Nero all taste terrible,
McDonald's is fair trade coffee but its McDonald's so it's gonna taste like stale piss.

McDonalds coffee is ok, as are all those others you mention.

I was thinking the same thing, nothing at all wrong with McDonalds Coffee.
And although I don't use the others mentioned often, they all seem pretty good to me.

I've heard bad things about Fairtrade from a friend who is (self described) an "Eco Hippy" but I don't know enough about why to really comment much.

I will ask him to tell me again 🙂

Some people are so militantly eco, they define themselves as warriors, so that if anything is adopted on a large scale by big companies it becomes automatically evil by association.

Which is a bit stupid imo, because you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Nothing will be achieved if we just argue all the time.

Nothing will be achieved if we just argue all the time.

STW in a sentence. 😉

Fair Trade just sounds like a conscience appeaser for resource plundering.

Pay 3rd world landowners western rates for their crops. They then turn over more and more of their land to the high returns this generates.

This reduces the crop area for staples to sell to the locals and leads to famines because the locals can't afford to pay western prices for food.

If I'm wrong, then there's no famine in Africa.

So what's the alternative?

Some people are so militantly eco, they define themselves as warriors, so that if anything is adopted on a large scale by big companies it becomes automatically evil by association.

I agree, but I don't think that's the case with my "Eco Hippy" mate to be honest.
He seemed to think that Fairtrade hadn't actually achieved anything meaningful for the growers, and said they were no better off than they were before in reality.

I will check though, as he may have just been blurting anti "Big Corp" stuff?
but that's not generally his style.

[b]Pay 3rd world landowners western rates for their crops[/b]. They then turn over more and more of their land to the high returns this generates.

This reduces the crop area for staples to sell to the locals and leads to famines because the locals can't afford to pay western prices for food.

[b]If I'm wrong[/b], then there's no famine in Africa.

You were wrong at the point where you said paying western rates. Fairtrade rates have no comparison to western rates- fraction of the rate but better than others in their locality. I think the point of fairtrade was as a health check that in capitalism's never ending squeeze of margins those at the bottom of the pile did not have their margins squeezed to the point where maintaining any sort of civilised way of life was not possible - i.e. the firm at the top of the chain gets to market their product in a postive way because the farmers that supply them can do so whilst paying and treating their workers reasonably. This seems a good ambition to me. If of couse this actually is how it works in the real work is not something I'm entirely sure anyone here would be able to do anything other than speculate on. I ride with a guy who is a buyer of fruit, veg and flowers overseas (pretty much the man from del monte!) and I'll get his informed opinion of if it actually works.

Also probably worth pointing out that Fairtrade international itself is a non profit organisation.

What's a western rate for coffee, incidentally?

Just did a bit of googling, seems most people's objections revolve around the idea that farmers have no incentive to improve production capability with technology and investment. The counter from pro-fair traders was that they usually do invest in infrastructure and also schools, health etc for the community.

Seems broadly similar to the concept of minimum wage. The opponents were suggesting that having to fight for market share and prices would force farmers to improve their offering, but that sounds like right wing nonsense to me. When you're a penniless farmer struggling to survive, you're unlikely to be able come up with a killer business idea. And even if you do, you gain income at the expense of someone else.

Surely the coffee market is fixed, as far as the producers are concerned..? So if you sell more coffee your neighbour has to sell less. Sure, Starbucks etc can grow their businesses, but as far as the producers are concerned it's an external factor.

The point is that the rich Western corporations buying coffee already have a massive advantage. Fair Trade ideas are simply an attempt to redress the balance.

Precisely. There is a structural imbalance of power which means that market forces leave us paying £2.50 for a latte, and the growers without enough to live on. Fair Trade, for all its faults, is a small attempt to improve the lives of those who need it most.

At the end of a long supply line is a another poor sod, just like me trying to make a decent living. If I can afford it (and I can't always afford it) I have no problem paying a few pence extra to give him/her a fair price for their product therefore if I can afford it I buy fair trade.

McDonalds coffee is ok, as are all those others you mention.

I was thinking the same thing, nothing at all wrong with McDonalds Coffee.
And although I don't use the others mentioned often, they all seem pretty good to me.

Really? Putting ethics and your opinion aside 😉 this threads getting out of hand!
Starbucks coffee - "ok" & "pretty good"??
I can accept McDonald's been ok, on the rare occasion (stopped taking the chance after too many bad cups, along side a change in attitude), Costa & Nero not inspiring me much either but Starbucks?

Nope you've both clearly drunk too much and got coffee delirium, verbal diarrhoea, taste buds are knacked. Check with your GP!

Nope you've both clearly drunk too much and got coffee delirium, verbal diarrhoea, taste buds are knacked. Check with your GP!

Nah, I'm just not an STW coffee expert.

I drink instant too.

And I enjoy it.

Costa & Nero not inspiring me much either but Starbucks?

You are letting your middle-class irrational angst get in the way. Nothing at all wrong with Starbucks coffee - precisely roasted and good quality beans (yes, have seen it for myself) and, if you buy it unadulterated, a reasonable coffee. Try some of their beans for yourself with your own grinder at home to check.
I'm not sure how holy you believe your taste buds to be.

I drink instant too.

I would too but it goes straight through me 😐

but Starbucks?

Yep. Starbucks isn't all toffee nut lattes with whip. A flat white there is very nice. They also have whole milk available which most places don't have.

It's not the best thing ever, but as above it's decent enough, and of a similar grade to almost all coffee shops. The choice between Costa, Nero and Starbucks is purely personal taste, and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a snob or a wannabe corporate justice warrior.

Starbucks coffee in whole bean form is easily the best available in my local supermarkets too.

I find Starbuck's coffee to be weak pish. Costa is ok though.

I would too but it goes straight through me 

Add this to your whinging, and i can't help thinking you need to HTFU. 😉

HTFU

Really though?!

I buy almost all of my coffee from a local place who source the beans direct from the countries of origin from selected estates. They tell me the farms are selected to not exploit the people working there but I only have their word for it.

Short of getting on a plane, I think I've done what I can.

I buy almost all of my coffee from a local place who source the beans direct from the countries of origin from selected estates. They tell me the farms are selected to not exploit the people working there but I only have their word for it.

Short of getting on a plane, I think I've done what I can.

Its a long shot but atleast theres a chance that your doing the right thing,

Hows the quality/cost?

They tell me the farms are selected to not exploit the people working there but I only have their word for it.

And they most likely only have the farm owners word for it...

I think I've done what I can

Hmm.. you know those houses people convert to cannabis growing factories - maybe you could do the same for coffee?

Just back in from TKMax getting some red nose day stuff for kids on Friday. Couldn't see a reason not to pay £2.99 for this stovetop. Is this the beginning of a slippery slope? Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?

[IMG] [/IMG]

Ok, what pre-ground for stovetopping? This Taylor's Rich Italian is just a bit bitter, but nice with 1/4 teaspoon of sugar.

Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?

Yes.

As for the coffee being bitter - you probably had too much heat. Coffee is burned and made bitter by boiling water - it needs temps just under boiling, 95 degrees I think.

This is why I suggest low heat with these things. You want the water to stay below boiling and the steam given off to gently push the hot water through the thing. If it starts to gush out then it's boiling, and the coffee will be more bitter.

Taylors is ok but imo Starbucks from the supermarket is better. Ideally, you want as dark/strong coffee as you can get imo.

Most things I've had fair trade either taste like shit or falls to bits within a month and because of that I normally avoid the label.

Most things I've had fair trade either taste like shit or falls to bits within a month

Definitely not my experience at all. Why would it? It's not some mumbo jumbo, it just means that the producers get a bit more money.

[url= http://www.hasbean.co.uk/blogs/articles/6552783-ethical-policy ]Here's a thought...[/url]

7.You're just going to have to trust me!

Tried some of the coffee before, really nice but can I trust him on basis that he says we're gonna have to trust him!

Do people actually [b]believe[/b] the posters/adverts on TV about how the producer gets a fair deal? How they are all smiling when they've just signed a wonderful deal that will provide education and new clothes for their children?

Guess they must do, which is why they keep running the marketing campaigns...

I've never seen a TV ad.

But I'd need some evidence against Fair Trade. Do you have any?

Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?

No. It's an Apollo rampage from Halfords.

One of these (on the right)
[img] [/img]

And one of these hair shirt hand grinders

[img] [/img]

Well your experience of the stuff is better than mine then molgrips.

The first fair trade coffee that I had was Coffee Direct - didn't like that much at all.

For instant I use Kenco Millicano which is Rainforest Alliance certified .

Ok, what pre-ground for stovetopping?

I really rate Sainsburys own brand Espresso blend, you won't get many points for niche coffee, but it is fair trade.

A shout for Waitrose (I know, I know...we shop online with Ocado) Italian Roast beans if you're grinding yourself.

I bought a big jar of Tesco value coffee earlier for 54p, i think thats a fair trade...

Fair Trade, UTZ and Rainforest Alliance at least ensure that growers make a better living than the average in their country and ensure that they are able to make a living (but certainly not western!) wage. For me thats a start, amd better than the alternative which is to leave them to the free market of unscrupilous commodity traders.
The oncost per cup is really negligable.
Also must say that I would take a McD coffee over starbucks any day.

Thanks for the condescending, narrow minded, preaching original post.

Is stovetopping the singlespeeding of coffetrackworld?
Yes.

As for the coffee being bitter - you probably had too much heat. Coffee is burned and made bitter by boiling water - it needs temps just under boiling, 95 degrees I think.

This is why I suggest low heat with these things. You want the water to stay below boiling and the steam given off to gently push the hot water through the thing. If it starts to gush out then it's boiling, and the coffee will be more bitter.

Taylors is ok but imo Starbucks from the supermarket is better. Ideally, you want as dark/strong coffee as you can get imo.

Over heating is possibly causing issues though is one of only a number of factors that might be affecting the bitterness, the other 2 common ones are bean quality and over extraction.

No pre-ground coffee is going to get you any more than ok results, you can do what you want with technique but if your coffee was ground weeks (months?) ago then it will have lost much of it's aroma and flavour, regardless of the brand of coffee. While a home espresso machine really needs a good amount spent on a burr grinder, a stovetop results will probably still be improved by a basic blade grinder for £20, or if you want even better results and don't mind a bit of elbow grease I would [url= http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/porlex-ceramic-burr-coffee-grinder ]highly recommend a hand grinder[/url].

Over extraction is the second, many people (including me in the past!) just assume the more water goes through the stronger it will be, but as the coffee grinds get over used they get bitter. So a little less water in the stove top might help too.

Hello guys and gals. I'm a little late to the party, as usual, but here is a related matter. It's not just coffee that needs to be fairly traded you know:

[url=] https://sites.google.com/site/scantargument/blogs-1/contributing-to-war-mobile-phones-and-the-democratic-republic-of-the-congo ][/url]

This was written by my girlfriend, based on research for her Masters, and when I get myself together I intend to write an article on a related matter.

Please take a few minutes to read, and if you have any feedback, well that'd be swell.

@Kuco

Completely unrelated to this thread, but I saw your comment on a thread about the Nukeproof Mega and sizing. What I wanted to know is whether you ended up getting one, and if so a small, and if so how you found it? Have been thinking of getting one for a while, tested a medium last year and then took too long to get one when they all got discounted. Am also 5'7"-5'8", not especially long armed and wondering if I could get away with a small...!

Thanks.