Well this is an interesting perspective on the story
[url= http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/rita-panahi-whining-media-playing-straight-into-donald-trumps-hands/news-story/df3f7d409be39ccc484c56894896a39f ]Whining media playing straight into Donald Trump’s hands[/url]
I had no idea that "multiple media outlets have had the infamous dossier for months" and if true it's a significant revelation imo.
What is certainly true is that people, particularly his opponents, have absolutely no idea how to deal with Trump, that's been proved over and over again.
One of the problems is that people believe what they want to believe, despite strong evidence to suggest the error of that - everything is so much easier and less complicated when we believe what we want to believe. And there's plenty of examples of that on this thread.
Trump, a man who has openly and publicly spouted racist, sexist, bigoted drivel, will be the next US president in a few days time, some people need to think how this has actually come about.
And no, simply concluding that the American people have suddenly, and quite inexplicitly, become "stupid" won't do. Trump would not have stood a chance 10 years ago - why? Racist sexist bigoted politicians have always being around in the United States, just like elsewhere.
It's a fact that many who voted for Trump have expressed the opinion that, bizarre as it might seem, they have absolutely no idea whether he will make a good US President and do what's best for them.
So why take such a big risk with someone in which they have so little faith in? Because he's "different", and he's certainly that, so they thought they would give him a chance - even though they openly admit to not having a clue what he will be like.
So now the next question - why is being "different" so important? It all sounds very desperate. The answer is clearly because ordinary people feel so let down by previous US Presidents. And this is the bit that the disconnected soft "left", if you can call it left, don't like and won't admit, the Obama presidency was not a successful one, if it had been Hilary Clinton would have won.
[quote=mrlebowski ]IMHO Chewkw is Fred.
100%
Rusty Spanner - MemberI love our chewk.
Especially when other people's toy's head skyward.
I used to think like that. The sight of Chewwy wading into a thread in which a serious and interesting debate was occurring and trashing it by spouting a load of gibbering nonsense used to amuse me greatly. Now I just find it tedious. The joke's been well and truly worn out imo.
I've flirted with the idea of blocking two of our extremely unpleasant right wing brethren, but if you can't cope with a couple of weirdos on the internet, real life is going to be a bit of a challenge, isn't it?
Yes, a right wing nutter blocker would be useful to take care of 3 people.
Do you need member access to block as I can't see how to do it?
There's a couple of right-wingers on here who so obviously damage the Tory cause that I absolutely welcome their contributions.
One doesn't even bother trying to win people over preferring instead to taunt and ridicule.
yes,a right wing nutter blocker would be useful to take care of 3 people.
Read that one back and think about it for a bit.
ernie I assume your last sentence should have read "not been Hillary" - otherwise I agree. Obama promised much, I celebrated on election night in Rockerfeller Plaza in NY at the historic event taking place that night. 8 years later he's been a dud. A good speaker and a "superstar", conducted himself with great grace and not a single scandal. Americas first multi racial President. His wife is the Democrats best chance for 2020 or 24. That's his legacy.
Alternative viewpoints (posted this on EU thread but relevant here). Obama's whole speech is on Sky News YouTube channel
Chewkw has a very different posting style and set of opinions to Fred. The latter exposed himself q easily when challenged. Chewkw in contrast appears to be far more thick-skinned and impervious to his detractors comments.
Trump, a man who has openly and publicly spouted racist, sexist, bigoted drivel, will be the next US president in a few days time, some people need to think how this has actually come about.And no, simply concluding that the American people have suddenly, and quite inexplicitly, become "stupid" won't do. Trump would not have stood a chance 10 years ago - why? Racist sexist bigoted politicians have always being around in the United States, just like elsewhere.
It's a fact that many who voted for Trump have expressed the opinion that, bizarre as it might seem, they have absolutely no idea whether he will make a good US President and do what's best for them.
So why take such a big risk with someone in which they have so little faith in? Because he's "different", and he's certainly that, so they thought they would give him a chance - even though they openly admit to not having a clue what he will be like.
Occams razor says different.
Trump got a little bit under the usual Republican vote, there was no enthusiasm for Trump at all.
All that happened was the Democrat vote dropped dramatically.
There is no "Trump movement" there's just a load of people voting on party lines.
If you don't accept that you have to explain how Trump has somehow changed politics, but after all the swapping around ended up with around the number of votes republican candidates usually get.
ernie I assume your last sentence should have read "not been Hillary" - otherwise I agree.
I don't know what you mean, apart from not putting a double L in Hillary it reads correctly to me, ie, if the Obama presidency had been a successful one Hillary Clinton would have won.
.
Chewkw in contrast appears to be far more thick-skinned and impervious to his detractors comments.
Chewwy is a desperate attention-seeker, he would much rather be insulted than ignored. If you really want to upset Chewwy then just ignore him.
Trump got a little bit under the usual Republican vote, there was no enthusiasm for Trump at all.
Trump became the Republican presidential nominee beating all the other contenders, in a few days time he will be the next US President. If you think he lacks significant support then that's up to you.
As I said above, people believe what they want to believe. That's how Trump has managed to wrong-foot so many people.
the Obama presidency was not a successful one, if it had been Hilary Clinton would have won.
I think the resentment over Obamacare in lower middle income families is what swung it for Trump.
there was also a lot of undersupport for hillary in black and latino communities
despite those seeing the biggest benefits from the ACA- doubled the number of black & latino with health cover (also led to a big surge in cancer diagnoses in these groups, so a great many people will benefit)
whatever trump replaces ACA with we can safely asume will be worst for the poorest, I expect many people will rue not voting to keep Trump out
Hillary Clinton's husband called Obamacare "the craziest thing in the world", so it wasn't just lower middle income people who had a poor opinion of it.
EDIT : Bill Clinton made that comment during the presidential campaign btw - a great shot in the arm for his wife!
Hillary Clinton's husband called Obamacare "the craziest thing in the world", so it wasn't just lower middle income people who had a poor opinion of it.
but it was lower middle income families that were being fined $600 pp at the end of the tax year for not taking out medicare insurance. Wealthier people/those with better Jobs with benefits would have insurance (so no penalties and may well be republican anyway) and those on the lowest incomes got it for free
Yeah see my edit Klunk to see the point I was trying to make.
You closet pron viewers.
I resent that. I do not view pron in my closet.
I have no idea who he is, but it would be a terrible disappointment if he does turn out to be a trolling IT manager from Peterborough.
No he runs a Chinese takeaway opposite the Brockwell Seam in Cramlington.
Oh now I'm 50:50 whether it's all worth it. It would have been a humanitarian tragedy and brought about pain and suffering to millions.....But Trump as president will probably be worse.
Dont forget that Donald will singlehandedly re-invigorate the rustbelt. He's a magician dont you know.
fake news or fake allegations planted by the russians or all true?
the russians are saying its MI6 trying to upset US-Russia relations
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/819525677175242752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
bbc caption writer taking the piss assuming not fake news
fake news or fake allegations planted by the russians or all true?
As I understand it :
It would appear that Christopher Steele was originally commissioned by a Republican contender opposed to Trump (Jeb Bush?). Steele then used contacts which he had in Russia, rather than direct information gathered by himself in Russia.
Before the dossier could be completed Trump secured the nomination.
Steele was then requested by the Clinton camp to carry with his work, presumably the Democrats were tipped off by anti-Trump Republicans.
Steele eventually hands over the dossier but is so concerned with the serious nature of some of the allegations that he informs a former FBI colleague working in Rome.
Fearing a possible cover-up Steele flies to New York in October to give an interview to a journalist on "Mother Jones".
31st October Mother Jones breaks the story of the existence of the dossier without naming Christopher Steele :
[url= http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-alleging-russian-operation-cultivate-donald-trump ]A Veteran Spy Has Given the FBI Information Alleging a Russian Operation to Cultivate Donald Trump[/url]
Now, ie today, Mother Jones focuses on Christopher Steele's past reliability emphasising claims that [i]“He’s a meticulous professional, and there are no questions about his integrity”.[/i] However they conclude, and remember they have interviewed Steele at length, [i]"Most of the stuff in the dossier is nonetheless probably wrong. The question is, is any of it right?"[/i]
[url= http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/heres-bit-more-trump-russia-dossier ]Here's a Bit More on That Trump-Russia Dossier[/url]
You can take two things out of this, ie, that the allegations are probably untrue, and that Trump will benefit by portraying himself as the victim of Democrats, Republicans, otherwise known as politicians, and the hated media, as the article in my earlier link claimed. It will up his creditability as the anti-establishment man. It's unlikely to damage him.
The Mash is spot on as usual:
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/trump-eases-worlds-nerves-with-rambling-and-demented-speech-20170112120054 ]Trump eases world's nerves with rambling and demented speech[/url]
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/come-back-when-he-shags-a-dead-pig-say-jaded-brits-20170111120020 ]Come back when he shags a dead pig, says jaded Britain[/url]
😆
You can take two things out of this, ie, that the allegations are probably untrue,
your links dont say anything about whether its true or not other than the one line about it 'probably not being true', but with no justification of that statement
and that Trump will benefit by portraying himself as the victim of Democrats, Republicans, otherwise known as politicians, and the hated media,
that is certainly true for a certain demographic, but they are not the majority in america, he lost the popular vote and plenty either didnt bother or voted against hillary rather than for trump
Id wager more people looked on at his remarkable tantrum yesterday and thought,
'hes guilty of something
I just dunno what'
His self confessed disrespect toward women means that these kind of allegations stick
which any russian spies that may have dispersed the stories would regard as a success
Ashcrofts smearing of Cameron was dismissed as bollox, but Daves now 2016's biggest loser...
(edit actually those Mash links sum it up better than me!)
Marine LePen at Trump Tower.
She's the ultra-right nationalist funded by Russian banks.
Nothing to see here, move along.
wwaswas - Member
Marine LePen at Trump Tower.She's the ultra-right nationalist funded by Russian banks.
just like Trump!
wonder what those tax returns might be hiding..........
your links dont say anything about whether its true or not other than the one line about it 'probably not being true', but with no justification of that statement
Well that comment was made by the magazine which broke the story of the dossier and which interviewed Christopher Steele in depth, I think their opinion on the matter is probably quite valid. Furthermore the view that they are probably untrue is fairly widespread.
In contrast I can't see any justification to claim that the allegations are probably true.
Plus unlike some people I don't actually think that Trump is stupid. Apart from anything else trusting prostitutes in a country which is rife with organised crime, including among the rich and powerful, would be extremely stupid.
.
Id wager more people looked on at his remarkable tantrum yesterday and thought,
'hes guilty of something
I just dunno what'
You see this is a good example of what I said concerning people believing what they want to believe, or in this case seeing what they want to see.
I first heard about Trump's press conference on here. Remarks by people such as Binners led me to believe that Trump had preformed extraordinarily badly. When I eventually saw it on TV that was exactly what I was expecting.
However what I saw was a confident man attacking his detractors, in this case mostly the press. I was so surprised by that I had to watch BBC, ITV, and C4 news, in case they weren't showing the bits where he completely lost the plot.
If I thought Trump preformed really quite well, and I'm certainly no great fan of his, then I dare say that his supporters would have been even more impressed.
At yesterday's press conference Trump was being Trump - his performance was 100% typical.
Trump being Trump is what won him the presidential election.
Stop dismissing Trump as an incapable politician which people can see right through because you want to believe that he's an incapable politician which people can see right through.
Marine LePen at Trump Tower.
She's the ultra-right nationalist funded by Russian banks.
Nothing to see here, move along.
1+1 = 96
Le Pen is smart, she has no meeting with Trump or his team but knows the building will be full of journalists. Free publicity !
The French banks won't deal with FN so they borrow money from Russian Banks.
As I pointed out Ernie they don't have to be true to do him damage.
The allegations are impossible to prove either way, an excellent bit of trolling by the the Dems or the Reps or the ex MI6 agents who appear to have to have been fed this info.... by the Russians.
Trump wanted to explain to us all how he was free of conflicts of interest and his replacement for Obamacare would be 'just wonderful' etc
Meanwhile all the hated main stream media and his loyal alt right press are only taking about his Ajay disastrous relationship with the CIA, Russia and his sex life.
I'm sure that was his cunning plan all along
Fine analysis EL, it should be remembered that a number of reputable organasitions refused the opportunity to publish these allegations.
Gotta agree with Ernie on this one. I watched the press conference and am beginning to have a bit of grudging respect for the guy. Like it or not, he seems to have taken on both the major US parties and won. Now he's working on the press....
The allegations are impossible to prove either way
What a remarkably strange thing to say.
It's very easy to prove if the allegations are true ...... it just requires this thing called "evidence".
.
Meanwhile all the hated main stream media and his loyal alt right press are only taking about his Ajay disastrous relationship with the CIA, Russia and his sex life.
I'm sure that was his cunning plan all along
You just don't get it do you. How many times have we been told "this latest scandal will finish him off"? And all that's happened is that's he's bounced back stronger to the point where [i]he will be[/i] the next US President.
This latest thing is no worse than anything previous. Besides, he's won the Presidency mudslinging is now even more pointless.
Dig up some [i]evidence[/i] of money laundering/dodgy illegal business deals and you're talking a whole different ball game......impeachment.
I remain to be convinced he's b in control of the narrative in the media
Claiming hes too smart to be caught on tape is also demonstrably bollox
kimbers - MemberClaiming hes too smart to be caught on tape is also demonstrably bollox
I said : [i]Plus unlike some people I don't actually think that Trump is stupid. Apart from anything else trusting prostitutes in a country which is rife with organised crime, including among the rich and powerful, would be extremely stupid.[/i]
I didn't say that he was a nice man who had never said disgusting things.
But if you want to believe that Trump is "stupid" then fine - I won't bother asking you how you think he became 45th US President.
EDIT :
I remain to be convinced he's b in control of the narrative in the media
I didn't say that he was "in control of the narrative in the media". I said that I agreed with much of the comments in my earlier link [i]"Whining media playing straight into Donald Trump’s hands"[/i] I believe that the mudslinging has often backfired.
It's very easy to prove if the allegations are true ...... it just requires this thing called "evidence".
Perhaps you could write to the Russian secret services and ask them nicely?
Of course it requires evidence the point is those with it are not going to provide it hence its not easy to prove it.
Its a perfect one really as russia could have deliberately released this as well for all we know
Been reading up on Trump's vocabulary and grammar, the opinion is he communicates at a level of an eleven year old or thereabouts. In a comparison against former presidents he seems to have the most limited vocabulary and worst grammar. Obviously this isn't the only way to judge intelligence but most smart people I know are pretty good at communicating.
Thing is, it actual doesn't matter if any of this is True or not. All it demonstrates is that Trumps Presidency will be one of the lowest denominator. Petty squabbling, name calling, mistrust and anger, on all sides!
Obama, no matter what you think of his ideology or policies, is 1000 times the man Trump is, and yet people complain Obama achieved nothing. So, let me ask you this: If an extremely good and trustworthy politician can't achieve anything, can a liar, a manipulative, name calling man who pits people against each other achieve more?
Trump does "playground politics", he calls names, an yet can't cope when he gets a bit of his own medicine.
@akira he is certainly no Obama, he's around the George W level, he served 2 terms fwiw
Trump does "playground politics", he calls names, an yet can't cope when he gets a bit of his own medicine
Republican primaries. He called opponents names, opponents responded. He ratcheted up the name calling and won. Hilary tried similar. He is now the President. When he is called names he is on comfortable ground for him, he'll give it back and more.
It's very easy to prove if the allegations are true ...... it just requires this thing called "evidence".Perhaps you could write to the Russian secret services and ask them nicely?
Or perhaps more logically you could ask the person who has made the allegations to provide "evidence".
But maybe it doesn't work like that.......you can just make an allegation without providing any evidence? Is that how it works?
Grammar wise he's on the same level as Bush but his vocabulary is at a lower level.
akira - MemberObviously this isn't the only way to judge intelligence but most smart people I know are pretty good at communicating.
LOL well I never.....Donald Trump isn't a very smart person who isn't very good at communicating with people!
I wonder if someone has told Hillary Clinton........she'll be devastated when she finds out! Beaten by a stupid man with no communicating skills eh? Or very poor ones at least. Jeez she must have been a bad candidate.
All it demonstrates is that Trumps Presidency will be one of the lowest denominator. Petty squabbling, name calling, mistrust and anger, on all sides!
Good point
the evidence the russians have we all know he does not have ? that is why proving it is very difficult.Or perhaps more logically you could ask the person who has made the allegations to provide "evidence".
He does not have the video we all know this but that doesn't necessarily mean its all true or all false
however it does mean it is hard to prove either way
jambalaya he'll give it back and more
Precisely my point, in a never ending spiral down to the gutter.
The mark of true greatness in a (wo)man is the ability to take criticism and turn it into positive action.
But maybe it doesn't work like that.......you can just make an allegation without providing any evidence? Is that how it works?
That's exactly how it works. Have you been asleep the last few years?
