I think you misunderstand the importance that a different world outlook and experience can have on young people. I'll bet the MAGA voters don't have many stamps on their passports, or foreign contacts.
How else do you break down dangerous echo chambers?
Firing the federal employees attempting to investigate and control bird flu in avians, as well as those attempting to do the same on the onward transmission to cattle and humans is very much the fault of trump's attack dog musk.
Putting a rabid vaccine sceptic in charge of public health.
These things are probably not helping.
Yes, he owns those for sure.
Well, PubMed appears to be down for me. Normally you'd just assume a technical issue,
According to a tech site all the NIH DNS servers are down. Some of the sites they reference can apparently still be accessed directly via IP or via some providers who have the records cached.
I am guessing they are finding out one of those "probationary" staff might do a rather important job.
One of ladies in the shop was a full on ukipper due to her husband. Working with us we have provided a view not previously available.
We explain how much of a liar Lord Far Far is and she is now of the opinion that he is a knob.
Go to the summer camp and provide a view that may not be available.
Careful, from a page or two back dazh will be after you....
Just interested in the moral equivalence. Apparently it's outrageous for Farage to be kissing Trump's backside but perfectly acceptable for Starmer to be doing the same.
As in one of them kisses butt (proper full on brown nosing) for their own personal gain, while the other kisses butt (AKA international diplomacy) in the beleif that it may have some benefit to his country. Yep, plenty of moral equivalence there...
I reckon Farage kisses with tongues. Starmer holds his nose and does what needs done diplomaticly.
At the Trump/Starmer press conference, Starmer made many of the same corrections as Zelensky would go on to also make about the support European countries had given Ukraine. Not the same reaction from Trump of course… he did make some crass comments about the UK… but Starmer laughed them off. Not the same stakes for Starmer and Zelensky, or the same level of hostility shown towards him from the Trump administration and their carefully selected client journalists.
Macron and Starmer are going to try again to get Trump onside with a real peace deal by the way. Call it “sucking up” if you want. Not the “rub Trump’s nose in it” approach some want. There are lives at stake though.
As for Farage. Look towards what Trump is like with real power. Farage would be the same. That so many of the UK public either like or don’t believe that is depressing.
Well, to me Farage has nothing particularly to offer him, nor any significant power to be asking for anything in return. He's just playing up to Trump's RW policies to provoke, and to build his own 'reputation' - totally self serving.
Starmer's in a position to make a deal on behalf of the UK, and in turn as part of Europe, and one of the ways to do that is to stroke his ego. It's very distasteful that we're going to have to have him on a state visit but what is the alternative? What else can we offer in return for his support, that we can't tell him to shove up his arse much as we might like to.
And even that might not be enough if Zelensky has soured the relationship too far. They (the European leaders) will be working hard now to resurrect the relationship, and while people may be thinking that it's great that Zelensky refused to be bullied, I can't help thinking he's made the job harder, not easier.
Right now I think he's playing his hand as well as he can. If you think the two (Farage and Starmer) are doing the same thing, that's your opinion and I can't help you change it.
Sorry, Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance. This is not his fault.
Europe can do this without the US if there is the will to do so, which might of course be the issue.
Starmer made many of the same corrections as Zelensky would go on to also make about the support European countries had given Ukraine. Not the same reaction from Trump of course
I wonder if theres a bit of a l'esprit de l'escalier leading to Trumps outburst. Macron in particular-fact checked Trump mid-sentence, in front of his friendly hand-picked press crowd and Trump wasn't quick witted enough to react at the time. Perhaps this is really the rant he wanted to have at the other leaders he'd met earlier in the week.
Sorry, Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance. This is not his fault.
I think also theres an aspect of Trump reading the mood of the room, exactly the way he does in his rallies. Theres no reason for him to campaign anymore but his ego still needs a room he can raise cheers and boos from. What he has now as a replacement is a curated 'press' corp largely made up of MAGA fandom.
Really Trump and Vance were joining a pile-on that the press in the room had already started with questioning that sounded more like chastisement. The topic of respect/disrespect started with them and Trump and Vance ran with it. Whenever Trump gets a sense of what way the crowd is going he's very quick to place himself where they're heading.
Sorry, Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance. This is not his fault.
Correct.
The response, and the implications are on him though, and they could have been better.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/01/trump-officials-zelenskyy
It's amazing that the world is basically run by children. How did it come to this FFS. There seem to be very few grown up, fully functioning adults left in politics. Sad times when the people in the most senior positions in global politics have zero empathy and view a war as a business transaction.
I hope Ukraine get the support they so desperately need from the EU, UK, Canada and others bar the US. It is about time that the rest of the west found a way forward without them. Leave them to their isolationist, Christian fundamentalist, racist ways. Hopefully sense will prevail and Trump, Vance, Musk and their ilk will be booted out at the end of this term. I doubt it though.
Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance.
That is a very widely held view and it certainly looks that way but the question is for what purpose? Zelensky was only there to sign a deal which would have allowed the US access to Ukraine rare earths wealth, something which Trump clearly and desperately wants.
Other than to squeeze further concessions out Ukraine it makes no sense at all for Vance to ambush Zelensky on behalf of Trump. Is there any evidence that the Trump administration are no longer prepared pursue the original rare earth deal?
As I understand it Trump had made a significant concession by not including, in the calculations of what aid Ukraine would receive in return for rare earths, the US aid that Ukraine had already received. So what would be the point of suddenly putting more obstacles?
I would be interested in possible motives for the ambush in the White House, although not the usual default "it's because all right-wing politicians are thick and stupid and don't know what they are doing"
Playing up to Putin. It seems that he is somewhat admired by Trump.
The claim that Zelensky doesn't show gratitude for the help that the US and Europe have been giving Ukraine predates Trump by almost a couple of years.
Both the previous UK government and the Biden administration were staunch supporters of Ukraine, there is no doubt of that at all.
Britain’s defence secretary and the US national security adviser have suggested Ukraine ought to show more gratitude for the help it has received from the west
Ben Wallace, the UK defence secretary, said that “whether we like it or not, people want to see a bit of gratitude”
Presenting his remarks as helpful advice, Wallace said Ukraine had a habit of treating allies, including the UK, as if they were an Amazon warehouse with lists of demands for weapons – and was not always careful to try to win over more sceptical politicians in the US Congress and elsewhere.
Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser, argued that “the American people do deserve a degree of gratitude”, in response to a pointed question from a Ukrainian activist who asked if Joe Biden was withholding Nato membership because he was “afraid of Russia losing, afraid of Ukraine winning”.
Sullivan, clearly irritated, said: “The United States of America has stepped up to provide an enormous amount of capacity to help ensure that Ukraine’s brave soldiers have the ammunition, air defence, the infantry, fighting vehicles, the mine-clearing equipment.”
The two men’s similar language suggested a degree of coordination and marked a rare check on Ukraine’s repeated requests for military and diplomatic help at a summit designed to step up western support for Kviv, but without offering it an immediate pathway to Nato membership, which could lead to a direct war with Russia.
Maybe it's time for Zelensky to resign and for someone who has ruffled less feathers to take his place? It would take away one of Trump's "excuses" for not helping Ukraine and whether we like it or not it will be extremely hard to help Ukraine without the US being onboard.
If you worked on the assumption that Trump is more interested in helping Putin than Europe but at the same time he didn’t want to look like he is just being a Russian lapdog… then you could imagine them creating a scenario where it is Zelenskyy’s fault that it fails
I would be interested in possible motives for the ambush in the White House”
Trump has an axe to grind with Zelenskyy dating back to Hunter Biden days, he has a chip because of his impeachment and he is known to bear a grudge and seek revenge Humiliating Zelenskyy and undermining his bargaining position suits Trump and his bestie Putin. Every time the Ukrainians have to go back to the is an opportunity to screw them more.
Trump has an axe to grind with Zelenskyy dating back to Hunter Biden days
I thought Zelensky helped Trump out back then, no? I have to confess that's not a subject which I have followed closely?
Edit : According to this link Zelensky backed Trump a hundred percent and said that nothing improper had occurred.
Sounds to me that Trump owes him big time and has no reason to hold a grudge against him
Maybe it's time for Zelensky to resign and for someone who has ruffled less feathers to take his place?
I thought you’d be one of the people against the USA government being able to override voters in another country? Trump doesn’t choose who leads other democratic countries, their populations do.
Trump wanted Zelenskyy to find evidence that biden was corrupt. Hence Zelenskyy saying nothing improper had occurred. Trump hates Zelenskyy for not fabricating the evidence against bidon. Trump tried to blackmail Zelensky at the time . Its why trump was impeached
Unlike you to be so ill informed Ernie. You have that whole thing the wrong way round
Vance just has it in for him.
Has anyone here read his book?
Is there any evidence that the Trump administration are no longer prepared pursue the original rare earth deal?
I think an elephant in the room with the whole Rare Earth deal is..... the bit of Ukraine where much of this resource lies is pretty much on the front line, if not already currently under Russian boots.
Trump wanted Zelenskyy to find evidence that biden was corrupt.
Zelenskyy was pretty much exactly the wrong person to ask the favour of. Paul Manafort (former Trump campaign chairman and prison cell occupant) was also the laundry for a lot of corrupt money sloshing around Ukraine politics (under the guise of 'lobbying') before Zelenskyy came to power. Zelenskyy was elected, quite convincingly, on an anti corruption ticket, deposing Viktor Yanukovych and in doing so turned off the tap to Manafort and from his sugar daddy. Trump asking him to do any kind of favour was basically naive. Theres plenty of ways he could have had people dig around in Ukraine for him, with well connected people in his own office, but instead the whole thing blew up in his face.
The claim that Zelensky doesn't show gratitude for the help that the US and Europe have been giving Ukraine predates Trump by almost a couple of years.
Both the previous UK government and the Biden administration were staunch supporters of Ukraine, there is no doubt of that at all.
Britain’s defence secretary and the US national security adviser have suggested Ukraine ought to show more gratitude for the help it has received from the west
Ben Wallace, the UK defence secretary, said that “whether we like it or not, people want to see a bit of gratitude”
Presenting his remarks as helpful advice, Wallace said Ukraine had a habit of treating allies, including the UK, as if they were an Amazon warehouse with lists of demands for weapons – and was not always careful to try to win over more sceptical politicians in the US Congress and elsewhere.
Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser, argued that “the American people do deserve a degree of gratitude”, in response to a pointed question from a Ukrainian activist who asked if Joe Biden was withholding Nato membership because he was “afraid of Russia losing, afraid of Ukraine winning”.
Sullivan, clearly irritated, said: “The United States of America has stepped up to provide an enormous amount of capacity to help ensure that Ukraine’s brave soldiers have the ammunition, air defence, the infantry, fighting vehicles, the mine-clearing equipment.”
The two men’s similar language suggested a degree of coordination and marked a rare check on Ukraine’s repeated requests for military and diplomatic help at a summit designed to step up western support for Kviv, but without offering it an immediate pathway to Nato membership, which could lead to a direct war with Russia.
Maybe it's time for Zelensky to resign and for someone who has ruffled less feathers to take his place? It would take away one of Trump's "excuses" for not helping Ukraine and whether we like it or not it will be extremely hard to help Ukraine without the US being onboard.
You can **** that right off, on principle. What you're wanting is someone who stands up to bullies, both in Russia and America, to roll over. I'd hope that if Britain was in the same position as the Ukraine, we'd have such a leader, and not a Vichy-esque bunch of spineless appeasers and collaborators.
As for him asking for stuff from the UK warehouse... if we don't help him stop the war whilst it's on Ukrainian soil, we'll be having to do 10x more when it gets to Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian soil. If you really thinknit wouldn't, youre deluded. Putin wants a rebuilt Soviet Union. Seems a pretty good deal to do it now. A stitch in time saving 9.
It's such a shame when a thread that is an enlightening vox pop is reduced by people who lack convictions in their arguments or evidence and so reduce it to insults and aggression. Here's an alternative view of events from a fund managing economist:
Alex Krainer: The Hidden Wars Ukraine's Minerals and Global Power Plays
An hour long so not for everyone but I thought it was very interesting.
It's very distasteful that we're going to have to have him on a state visit but what is the alternative? What else can we offer in return for his support
When we get his support, he can have a state visit. Unless and until he's made a concrete commitment to provide support, his state visit can be delayed.
I've been criticised on here many times for taking a pragmatic view on a variety of issues, but this is a red line for me. (Not that it matters to anyone but me). We've dangled a carrot, but Trump and Vance have demonstrated they cannot be relied upon to do the right thing, and until that changes, the carrot can be dangled just out of reach.
I understand lives are at risk. Zelensky will decide if/what he will give up to protect Ukrainian lives. If it all goes horribly tits up, all European lives are in danger. Ukraine have spent 3 terrible years trying to delay and prevent that. We absolutely have to back them over the orange ****waffle.
I thought you’d be one of the people against the USA government being able to override voters in another country? Trump doesn’t choose who leads other democratic countries, their populations do.
What a strange thing to say. Who is suggesting that Trump should get to choose who leads other democratic countries?? I am of course suggesting that the Ukraine people might want to replace Zelensky, and it was with specific reference to him having in the past apparently lacked diplomatic skills in dealing with the Biden administration as well as other Western countries, not Trump.
Hasn't Zelensky himself suggested that he would consider resigning if it helps achieve peace? I thought he had.
You can **** that right off, on principle. What you're wanting is someone who stands up to bullies, both in Russia and America, to roll over.
The UK and the Biden administration appear to have coordinated their criticism of Zelensky's lack of gratitude back in July 2023, it suggests a long term problem which probably doesn't help Ukraine's case, maybe someone else might be better skilled.
You could probably disagree without accusing me of wanting anyone to roll over.
This was shared on the Ukraine thread. I've no idea if it's correct or whether it's a reliable source, but interesting if true.
Meanwhile, in the "Oh dear, how sad, never mind" news....
BBC News - Protesters target JD Vance in Vermont after clash with Zelensky
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqnxw6z73o
Trump wanted Zelenskyy to find evidence that biden was corrupt. Hence Zelenskyy saying nothing improper had occurred. Trump hates Zelenskyy for not fabricating the evidence against bidon. Trump tried to blackmail Zelensky at the time . Its why trump was impeached
Unlike you to be so ill informed Ernie. You have that whole thing the wrong way round
Did you actually read the link that I posted? I am assuming that you didn't, maybe read it?
Zelensky completely backed Trump's claims that nothing improper had happened with regards to phone calls that Trump had made to him.
The impeachment allegations relied on the claim that Trump had made improper requests to Zelensky. Zelensky helped to get Trump off the hook by insisting that Trump had done nothing improper.
When we get his support, he can have a state visit. Unless and until he's made a concrete commitment to provide support, his state visit can be delayed.
I don't know but I suspect that it was all 'getting ducks lined up' in this global game of offering, as indeed are the decisions to increase military spending. But then for whatever reason - and I'll again stress that T&V ambushing Z in that way was awful, but there are other respected commentators with insider info like the article I posted above suggesting that Z himself went off script and crossed some advised redlines, in front of the cameras, and got the reaction he did.
Would pulling the offer of a state visit now put the carrot out of reach and draw him further on.....or create another 'well * you' moment. I am so conflicted at the need to not just give in to his toddler like tantrums, but not me, nor anyone else here has one iota of what the deals being worked on behind the scenes are and suggesting he should be told to **** off is just crass naivety at what real diplomacy does.
I understand lives are at risk. Zelensky will decide if/what he will give up to protect Ukrainian lives. If it all goes horribly tits up, all European lives are in danger. Ukraine have spent 3 terrible years trying to delay and prevent that. We absolutely have to back them over the orange *waffle.
Much as it pains me to say it, wishing we could tell him where to go, we need them both back at the table seeking a mutually acceptable compromise. There's huge amounts of effort being expended by genuine politicians on both sides in trying to stitch that big tear back together, if it was just backing Z over T it would be far easier but ultimately less powerful. US has operational capability (such as air power) that we cannot easily do without; even without it actually being used.
Zelensky will decide if/what he will give up to protect Ukrainian lives.
Fair enough, his prerogative as the elected leader. I stick by my opinion that his anger / ego caused him to play his hand badly on Friday (under provocation, maybe, or maybe he contributed to that as well) and that's why we are where we are now, all that bit closer to major European conflict and unsure of who's going to help us.
Robertajobb is just hopelessly naive in that approach. It's because of the US being our big mate that has enabled us / Ukraine to stand up to the true enemy here.
I think it's reasonable to think that zelensky should have just let them blow themselves out a bit in the oval but in the heat of that moment, in a second language as well, it must have been hard. Add in loaded questions from primed journalists.
The big problem is that without the US all f-35, Apache, trident and god knows what else doesn't fly. So embedded is the US military industrial complex in much of the western defence system. Tellng them to do one is not an option unless you consider us effectively defenceless for at least a few years an option. That's why diplomacy, however distasteful is required.
An additional piece from the Kyiv Post, to add to the one MoreCash… has reposted from the Ukrain thread that I’d posted earlier;
The big problem is that without the US all f-35, Apache, trident and god knows what else doesn't fly. So embedded is the US military industrial complex in much of the western defence system. Tellng them to do one is not an option unless you consider us effectively defenceless for at least a few years an option. That's why diplomacy, however distasteful is required.
Yup, sums it up nicely imo. The next US president in four years time will quite possibly be JD Vance. I think it is not just a case of now seeing the US as perhaps not a reliable ally but also maybe seeing it as a possible potential enemy.
But it isn't just about how embedded militarily the UK and many others countries are with the US, it's also a case of the huge economic stranglehold the US has over much of the world. The world cannot isolate the United States no matter how it behaves.
It is obviously not an acceptable situation but it will take a very long time before this unhealthy dependency on what is now clearly an unpredictable and unreliable superpower changes. It should be work in progress though imo.
I think it's reasonable to think that zelensky should have just let them blow themselves out a bit in the oval but in the heat of that moment, in a second language as well, it must have been hard. Add in loaded questions from primed journalists.
The more I've seen the clips, I just can't see where Zelensky went wrong. He barely managed to get a sentence out without being talked over.
So Zelenskyy shoukd have just rolled over and sold out his country?
Yes losing his temper will not have helped but nothing he could have done would have. Trump wants a deal on Russian terms. There is no way Zelenskyy coukd have signed up and it was obviously a classic DARVO from Vance. Classic bully tactics.
In one way Zelenskyy has done the rest of the world a favour by making it plain that Trump Vance and the US cannot be relied upon and are indeed allied now with Russia. Its now out in the open
The more I've seen the clips, I just can't see where Zelensky went wrong.
The article covers it. Rolling eyes, the dismissive waving away 'Yes, yes, Putin already told me'.... is only part. He crossed (preagreed?) redlines, and then when it flared up didn't back down.
I know people see it as kowtowing to the orange shitgibbon, as holdy-nosey as that is that's the deal right now.
Don't watch clips, watch the whole thing and look from the view of what he did to NOT antagonise or to de-escalate.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/03/01/zelenskyy-trump-oval-office-column-00205584
Thanks for that jonv, an interesting analysis. Worth a read 👍
So Zelenskyy shoukd have just rolled over and sold out his country?
Where has anything I have said suggested that? He needs a deal as we all do, and we all have something to offer, from potential mineral rights to state visits. It's not rolling over, it's negotiating when your opponent has the stronger hand.
Are you suggesting he got it absolutely right? His response was perfect? In which case why is every sensible, heavyweight politician spending the weekend trying to work out how to salvage something from this mess?
Why do trump and vance get a free pass from you? Their behaviour was atrocious . They were just looking for a fight.
Zelensky is a human being under huge pressure and he was subjected to bullying gaslighting and classic DARVO. He lost his temper yes but it made no difference to the outcome. Only complete capitulation would have done which would allow russia to take over his country
Why do trump and vance get a free pass from you? Their behaviour was atrocious . They were just looking for a fight.
If you are really interested in the thinking behind jonv's comments why don't you read the link which he posted and goes into some details?
You obviously haven't because if you had you wouldn't be asking that question.
Are you suggesting he got it absolutely right? His response was perfect?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Do you understand why it perhaps wasn't "perfect"? Fatigued, war weary, dealing with tag team abuse from Trump and Vance, being steam rollered into giving up his country's resources for practically nothing, answering staged questions from the right wing press. All in a foreign language, without an interpreter in front of a hostile media circus? It's a wonder he didn't walk out in disgust at the shameful humiliation. The fact that he didn't is to his huge credit, that his performance wasn't "perfect" is understandable to just about everyone outside MAGA and the Kremlin surely?
Yes I've read the article above. It seems to be suggesting Zelensky should have blown feathers up Trump's arse, and excuses the actions of Vance and Trump.
Why do trump and vance get a free pass from you? Their behaviour was atrocious . They were just looking for a fight.
FFS TJ go back and read what I've said, recently and over the last two days. Admittedly some on the UK Gov thread, before coming over to here.
eg:
Trump and Vance were disgraceful, but sadly IMHO Zelensky got angry too and didn't play the limited hand he has well, which has only inflamed a situation (rather - given two ****s looking for a fight he got dragged in)
eg:
Be in no doubt he was ambushed by a pair of c**** and it was disgraceful; he did well to not punch one of them.
But - and this is the but - in doing so he got played and against all that *should* have, I'm very sad to say, found a way to suck it up. Shouldn't have needed to but that I'm afraid is the current POTUS who holds the cards.
eg:
If Z had deflated [the tension] and not given them the argument I agree they wanted, T&V would be looking even bigger ***** than they do today. He hasn't got his mineral deal is the only good part of the outcome, so there's a reason to come back to the table.
Where in any of that am I giving T&V a 'free pass'? It's a fair review of what happened - Z got attacked, but didn't handle it well (and as later reports have suggested *may* have actually contributed to the perceived reason for the attack) - and now everyone has to scramble to stitch it all back together, while Putin waits and watches.
That Politico piece reads like it was written by a Trump staffer, not an independent journo, so I'm not surprised that Red Ernie likes it so much.
giving up his country's resources for practically nothing,
Practically nothing?? The payback is being given sufficient military aid to help your country remain an independent nation.
Trump isn't completely wrong imo when he asks why American taxpayers should be expected to foot the bill, and I am sure that many Americans agree with him.
It would be different if Ukraine had no means at all to pay for the aid but it clearly has. It took the UK 61 years to pay back to the United States the aid it received during WW2. I don't recall anyone ever complaining about that.
Obviously it has to be a fair and reasonable deal but I am not in a position to say that it isn't. Trump has apparently already backtracked and said that it doesn't have to include the aid that Ukraine has already received from the US.
It is perfectly normal for countries to receive security and military assistance in return for their natural resources, look at the Middle East as an example for starters.
so I'm not surprised that Red Ernie likes it so much.
Wow, we're into full swing with our ad hominems now aren't we?
And apart from attacking the writer is anything in particular in the Politico piece which you feel doesn't sound feasible?
Edit : Btw I loved your suggestion that it is reasonable to assume that "Red Ernie" likes something written by a Trump staffer. I mean Trump staffers are clearly all commies! 😂
Sounds to me that Trump owes him big time and has no reason to hold a grudge against him
Yes, Trump is well known for his honest and honourable behaviour. Well clarified, that's certainly changed my point of view.
Trump and vance were more concerned with appealing to their maga base than any real concern with a lasting peace in Ukraine
Sometimes it's pretty bloody obvious who's the good guys and who's the bad guys .
@butr
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Do you understand why it perhaps wasn't "perfect"?
Totally. But it wasn't, and so here we are. I can be 100% sympathetic to the why while at the same time pointing out that the response was not great.
Yes I've read the article above. It seems to be suggesting Zelensky should have blown feathers up Trump's arse, and excuses the actions of Vance and Trump.
It's a different opinion to the one that suggests he should have punched Trump and walked out, but it is a valid take and not the only commentator that has said similar. The reality is that however unpalatable, he probably should have been closer to it than he was.
Trump and vance were more concerned with appealing to their maga base than any real concern with a lasting peace in Ukraine
Yes, I said similar a couple of pages back. Sadly they were then given (in their eyes) the justification to respond further by chucking him and his entourage out. I'm mildly encouraged that it hasn't landed that well, with the more moderate MAGA/Republicans.
For the final time.
T&V are assholes and I agree with their behaviour being characterised as bullying, gaslighting, whatever DARVO means, probably that too.
Z under terrible pressure didn't respond as well as he might.
In saying that I fail to see why I'm being attacked as if presenting both sides view of what happened as somehow siding with T&V.
Trump is well known for his honest and honourable behaviour. Well clarified, that's certainly changed my point of view.
And this is why I tend to keep off the Ukraine thread. Me pointing out that if anything Trump probably owes Zelensky a big favour gets twisted into me saying that Trump is well known for his honest and honourable behaviour.
You really can't have a sensible discussion when people are using schoolyard tactics.
Practically nothing?? The payback is being given sufficient military aid to help your country remain an independent nation.
security guarantees from the US weren't on the other side of that deal AIUI? from what i understood that deal was more about (vastly inflated) reparations and having US civilian operations ongoing in ukraine which would offer some sort of security?
Me pointing out that if anything Trump probably owes Zelensky a big favour gets twisted into me saying that Trump is well known for his honest and honourable behaviour.
i think the whole point about the phone call is not that zelensky didn't drop trump in the shit, it's that he wouldn't play ball and implicate the bidens in wrongdoing.
A brief rundown of Diaper Don’s lies about Ukraine and Zelenskyy…
Practically nothing?? The payback is being given sufficient military aid to help your country remain an independent nation.
Trump's initial position was that Ukraine's resources would be surrendered for assistance already provided, with no security guarantees and no promise of any further deliveries. So in terms of future help, yes "nothing". Trump's figure of $350 billion is massively inflated and even the US DOD puts it far lower. Lower in fact than European countries have contributed and yet they are not trying to coerce its resources from it.
The "offer" to Ukraine was hardly in good faith, coming days after Trump cozied up to Putin and called Zelensky a dictator who started the war. Despite all of this, Ukraine has actually said they are willing to try to pay for the help they've received, maybe just not down the barrel of a gun in front of the world's media.
If you don't want to be accused of having farted, stop talking out of your arse.
Also FWIW, Politico is generally characterised as Centrist (ooh, controversial!) to left leaning. The writer has (so I have googled) a fair balance of critical pieces, so by no means a Trump staffer.
What do you think? Words of a Trump staffer?
Zelensky got angry too and didn't play the limited hand he has well,
For all the reasons given, Zelensky didnt handle the situation well. However the "limited hand" is the Trump/Putin narrative. Of course US Weapons have enabled Ukraine to survive. And we all need them to survive, so we need them as much, as they need us. Europe & Canada understand this. Suspect thats what Starmer & Macron are gently reminding Trump of.
The big problem is that without the US all f-35, Apache, trident and god knows what else doesn't fly. So embedded is the US military industrial complex in much of the western defence system. Tellng them to do one is not an option unless you consider us effectively defenceless for at least a few years an option. That's why diplomacy, however distasteful is required.
I bet Europe will start to gently pivot away from defence expenditure with the US and develop own solutions. The irony Trump has bullied euro partners into long overdue defence spend increases but that will be decreasingly with US suppliers. 70% of the $170b military aid to Ukraine went straight to US arms manufacturers. Quite often to backfill disposal of already expired kit.
Obvs would be nice to see that money put to better use, but will be amusing to follow the penny dropping in Washington.
Whilst I think Trump is trying to do something, rather than Bidens slow walking and policy of using Ukraine to slow bleed Russia, sadly he is as always going for the immediate grift and it will cost him, once US defence contracts dry up along with all the DOGE efficiency nonsense hitting his core voter base.
he'll be long gone with his money before any of that shit hits the fan.
“ You really can't have a sensible discussion when people are using schoolyard tactics.” Correct, as Zelenskyy found out on Friday .
“ You really can't have a sensible discussion when people are using schoolyard tactics.” Correct, as Zelenskyy found out on Friday .
I don't think they were in discussion on Friday (who does that in front of world media?) rather they were there for press release like welcoming foreign leaders etc. However, someone did not follow the scripts because the President was expecting tributes only.
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Me pointing out that if anything Trump probably owes Zelensky a big favour g
Would be completely wrong. Trump hates Zelensky fir refusing to fabricate dirt on Biden.
Ill also say that both Starmer and Macron publicly corrected Trumps lies on Ukraine and did not receive the same attacks from Trump and Vance. Trumps and Vances reaction were imo because the fantasy they had of securing a peace deal came crashing down when it hit reality and remember that to trump as a psychopath the truth is what he says it is.
He wants Zelenskyy to accept russias control of parts of Ukraine. Ukraine will not do that
And this is why I tend to keep off the Ukraine thread. Me pointing out that if anything Trump probably owes Zelensky a big favour gets twisted into me saying that Trump is well known for his honest and honourable behaviour.
Of course, that certainly wasn't what I said, but you do you.
You really can't have a sensible discussion when people are using schoolyard tactics.
The ironing is strong.
I would be interested in possible motives for the ambush in the White House”
This is always the question with Trump..... why is he doing this / anything? Unfortunately, there's so much nefarious shit going on, it could be any one of 100 things:
He desperately wants to take credit for a ceasefire/peace, so he can get a nobel peace prize - just to stick it to Obama.
He wants a ceasefire so he can lift sanctions on Russia (for reasons of personal enrichment) - he's just announced that he is selling US citizenships to oligarchs, which I'm sure is not unrelated.
We wants to strike "deal" to get paid back for the aid that biden has already given Ukraine. He will want to parade that big number in front of his fans, as well as heralding himself the master dealmaker.
He just wants the rare earth minerals for Musk et al, and is just trying to bully Ukraine in to accepting the deal.
He hates Zelinski because of the Hunter Biden affair
He thinks that being tough on Zelinski will play well to his base.
It could be just a wierd ego thing - that he wants Zelinski/Ukraine to aknowledge that he's king of the world and grovel.
He could be 100% working for Putin.
My money is on that last one. I watched a piece by MSNBC yesterday - they were asking "if he was "controlled by Russia" what would he be doing differently? Makes you think.
As for Starmer? I think he did well with Trump, and he's done well today. I don't subscribe to this "pick a side" sentiment - I think Starmer/the UK can step-up and take a more visible/active role, without slagging the Donald off. Everybody can see what's happening - there is no need to point out the obvious and antagonize him. If the UK can keep out of a US trade war, whilst supporting Ukraine, build closer ties to Europe, become less dependent on the US etc, then that's what Starmer should be trying to achieve. A "love actually" moment, would achieve nothing - other than perhaps boosting Starmer's popularity.
I bet Europe will start to gently pivot away from defence expenditure with the US and develop own solutions.
Observation here is that Europe already produces submarine launched ballistic missile courtesy of the Force de dissuasion. Not a clue what the route would be with that one, maybe a major life extension to existing UK fleet and an expensive redesign of the Dreadnought, seems extremely unlikely. Especially given the expected lifespan of the existing subs.
Two 6th Generation fighter projects underway, and an alternative to the Apache exist courtesy of France again, no idea if it's any good, or actually a genuine alternative.
I've zero clue if that that "strategic autonomy" would make the world a safer place.
@ernielynch I'm not sure anyone provided a link to the Burisma accusations. Read this https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/there-s-no-evidence-trump-s-biden-ukraine-accusations-what-n1057851
As for Farage. Look towards what Trump is like with real power. Farage would be the same. That so many of the UK public either like or don’t believe that is depressing.
100% correct, but the key difference is, that in a global context, it doesn't really make an awful lot of difference.
The US being far-right/fascist/neo-nazi/whatever rogue state simply wasn't supposed to happen as far as 99% of political commentators understood 15 years ago. It was never considered a possibility because no one thought well-off western electorates could be so easily conned.
So Trump has achieved his main goal - the one he truly craves. He is the most important and relevant and listened to person in the world. The manner of his getting there and his conduct now are secondary as far as the chippy shouldered, narcissistic old crook is concerned.
Knowing all of this doesn't help, though.
Ill also say that both Starmer and Macron publicly corrected Trumps lies on Ukraine and did not receive the same attacks from Trump and Vance.
Is where I think the hypocrisy and personal beef with Zelensky is exposed. I'm sure Zelensky had a plan to be nice, but all plans go out the window after first contact with the enemy.
I'm hoping the international reaction will calm Trump down, but if he pivots to wanting the mineral wealth in Greenland or pushing to make Canada a US state, how long do we have to stay tied to the US militarily
. It was never considered a possibility because no one thought well-off western electorates could be so easily conned.
It was foretold in fiction many times but no one listened. Its always been an obvious possibilty for the US. Fundamentalist christianity nationalism and a poor education system gives the conditions for this coup to happen
This thread got busy suddenly...some of this may be old news now 🙂
No, right now the strongest statement that could be made is for Camp America kids to turn up and question the lack of European leaders this year and be told Europeans are staying away because they find your nation's culture and isolationist leanings distasteful and wrong.
I can see both sides of the discussion and I'd ask who is going to tell Camp America kids that?
Something like 1/3 of US voters voted for President Trump, which is much higher in some states. Maybe a more reliable message would come from Europeans, although I see your points about them acquiescing as well
I bet Europe will start to gently pivot away from defence expenditure with the US and develop own solutions.
There's an interesting series of films on youtube by a defence analyst who is ex Finish defence forces. He looks at the strengths and weaknesses of European made defence equipment compared to that supplied by the US and considers if we "could go it alone". The one linked below considers naval surface craft, but there are others on UAVs, armour, aircraft etc, with more in the pipeline.
The short answer is "yes we could". In many areas European equipment is superior, but there are some capabilities that only the US can currently provide. That will change. Defence production and cooperation is ramping up all across Europe as we have finally woken up to the fact the US is no longer a reliable ally.
There are also some disasters like the F35 which many European countries have ordered. It is horrendously costly, complex and difficult to maintain and has had numerous issues with reliability. It also relies on regular software updates supplied by US contractors which could be withheld by a truculent Trump in future.
There is also now a real security risk with F35 technology and others. The US is considering selling it to India, who have a close defence cooperation with Russia. Before long the AD and other technology on it will have been technically exploited by Russia. I can even see Trump dealing directly with Russia on defence before long. Not only are the US unreliable, they are now a security and intelligence risk.
The US will likely pull out of NATO. Europe needs to plan for that and get its shit together on defence manufacture and cooperation quickly over the next few years. There are very encouraging signs that it is happening.
Vance and Trump have a problem with Ukraine as it's in direct opposition to their America First Mandate. They (and many in the GOP) also have a problem with Zelensky personally in that he effectively campagned for Biden (...well, he would, wouldn't he? Trump had basically said he wanted to cutoff support on day 1 and has been a true disciple of Putin's power and lies approach and the man himself!). This coupled with Zelensky not kowtowing to the US way of thinking all builds a picture that they can paint for Trump of Zelensky being disrespectful. All they (the GOP) needed to do was make this personal for Trump and then Trump's ego would do the rest...and that's exactly how it played out, exactly as they hoped it would, from the continued comments about how Zelensky dressed, to the critique of his approach to the war, to berating him for not acceding to US demands - all of this was supposed to get an irritated response from Zelensky, and they got it. This was a lose: lose situation for Zelensky, he either capitulated to their aggression and lost a lot of his own country's respect, territory and future security AND the minerals or he pushed back and was made to look disrespectful. It was an ambush and a perfectly executed one.
Zelensky didn't help himself, either - his body language and responses fed perfectly the narrative that the GOP were looking for. He should have been better coached by his staff - they should've known (since inauguration, since Munich, since forever) exactly what these guys are going to be like and thus to try and laugh off their aggression rather than confront it head on. I'm not blaming Zelensky, not at all, but they should've prepared him better.
The f35 is an issue for other countries but afaik as we are a tier 1 partner we have the ability to generate the codes and also can do our own long term maintenance.
The apache is likely more of an issue although it looks like it is being covered by boeing uk
I've long thought NATO to be both a shibboleth and a relic of decades ago. Europe has long since needed a continent wide defense force and to let America go its own way