For another thread I have posted (far too) many words on Brexit, as for going quiet that's not something I get accused of very often and not a comment I can let pass.
Then engage the debate!
We post a question, you answer, we query the answer and you say nothing.
"Relax gun control
Imprison Clinton
Ditch NATO
End trade deals with China, Mexico and Canada.
Deport all 11million illegal Mexicans.
Ban Muslims from entering America
Imprison women who have abortions
Put all mosques under surveillance
Build a **** off wall along the border
Cancel the Paris climate deal ( coz global warming is a hoax, obvs)
End the peace deal with Iran
Bomb the shit out of IS
Encourage Japan and Korea to develop nuclear arsenals ?"
According to his acceptance speech, none of the above. Unless he mentioned it at the end after it got so boring and irrelevant R4 switched him off.
The special relationship is still going strong, it's now - dumb and dumber
Well thankfully, the US and all of the other nations have the ability to elect whoever the hell they want, and not seek approval from a microcosm of UK mountain bikers.
I despise Trump, utterly hate the man. But. I respect democracy (with no provisos) in the same way I do self-determination (see scotland and the falklands)
Why did this happen? Does anyone really believe that the americans who voted in Obama only 4 years ago have turned into loony fascists? It's the same demographic, so blaming old people and saying that young [i]educated[/i] (insinuating that old people are stupid? ***k off) people fought it is brainless.
You can't blame Trump, a snake is going to behave like a snake.
The problem is that there are a huge number of people who properly despise Hillary. The patriots (and there are a lot) hate her. Those who have no wish to see rich born legacy family presidents hate her (they have had enough of the bush family). The proof is plain to see in the result.
If anyone is to blame, it was the DNC who plainly pushed Hilary ahead of Sanders, effectively ruining his chances of running. Debbie Wassermann Schultz had a big hand in this.
And now, I'm listening to some american on TV crying her eyes out. WTH is wrong with people? Get a bloody grip.
martinhutch - Member
Indeed, we should be explaining to them why they are racist and stupid
Don't call me racist
I'm not too happy with 'stupid' but can live with it. I'm very unhappy with racist being the default insult.
Don't call me racist, you have no idea about me other than the fact I voted pro Brexit. That kind of mindless abuse would not be tolerated on any other thread.
THiS. When you call your opponents racist and/or stupid you just harden their resolve, you ensure they will not cross back over to "your side". I saw this first hand when doing street stalls for Vote Leave.
As I have said before when mainstream parties do not address issues like immigration then they leave a gaping hole for more extreme views to fill.
"Hello Donald it's Theresa
Yes Theresa may PM of the UK
Congratulations on becoming president"
has to smart first having to do that then realising your on his do I give a shit list.
"Which part of calling opponents who are racist and stupid is wrong?"
The part where that strategy allows the guy you think is racist to win by a country mile.
"When you call your opponents racist and/or stupid you just harden their resolve, you ensure they will not cross back over to "your side"."
This. Campaigns need to win support, not alienate it.
I wonder how much (potential) money [s]the Clintons[/s] James Comey just waved [s]goodbye[/s] hello to?
Great bit of campaign work from the FBI
Those who have no wish to see rich born legacy family presidents hate her (they have had enough of the bush family). The proof is plain to see in the result.
What, by voting for Trump?
The only thing that changed was that they chose red sauce over blue for their shit sandwiches.
The winner of this election was (as it was also the case for brexit) the one to persuade the apathetic non voter to vote.
Anyone who declarers themselves "not racist" [i]is[/i] stupid.
It's not something you can "self describe".
It's an attribute that is subjective to the 3rd party.
You think those Nazi's dropping in the zyklon described themselves as "nasty, racist, rightwingers"?
FFS
Like Brexit has?This. Campaigns need to win support, not alienate it.
Campaigns need to win support, not alienate it.
That's where Hilary failed. Every time she appeared on TV, I pleaded with her to give me some policy. Zilch, nothing. She just slagged off Trump and appeared a grade A sour-faced... . Thus alienating herself from peole who might have gone and voted for her but instead stayed at home.
Brexit and Trump same rules apply -
Rich folks get a lot richer and protected
Poor folks get a lot poorer and vulnerable
I actually used to give a * about this (as late as last May June ish) now i could not give a *
The great unwashed (of which I am a fully paid up member) has supported both these causes and now they will pay the price.
I am by no means financially or physically bullet proof but the fact is people will have to starve to death in the UK before most of us really start to struggle.
Now we wait for Marine Le Pen to rise from the **** a proper "not in the closet" racist.
As my 85 year old Father observed i have seen this before...
What, by voting for Trump?
Or by not voting at all? Perhaps they decided not to partake in either colour shit sandwich?
Brexit and Trump same rules apply -
This^^^ is complete bollocks.
Anyone who declarers themselves "not racist" is stupid.It's not something you can "self describe".
It's an attribute that is subjective to the 3rd party.
You think those Nazi's dropping in the zyklon described themselves as "nasty, racist, rightwingers"?
FFS
Voting for Brexit is equivalent to gassing jews.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
As I have said before when mainstream parties do not address issues like immigration
Should they though? Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?
From what I've read, it's because they think that they are costing the country money and taking jobs. But this seems not to be true. So why do people still think it?
Does the government simply not communicate well?
Voting for Brexit is equivalent to gassing jews.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
Not even close to what was said. Not even close.
As my 85 year old Father observed i have seen this before...
Me: It's just like what happened before.
Other: No! we've moved on. Things are different now.
Me: (In head) That's what they said last time, and the time before that.
Or by not voting at all? Perhaps they decided not to partake in either colour shit sandwich?
Opting out of the sauce choice doesn't stop them from still having to eat.
They can sit and have their plain old shit sandwiches alone
Voting for Brexit is equivalent to gassing jews.I'm glad we cleared that up.
Glad your onboard! 😀
molgrips - MemberShould they though?
yes.
at least address the logistics.
(we need to build millions of houses, and associated power, water, gas, schools, transports, healthcare, etc. infrastructure. no-one even mentions it)
Opting out of the sauce choice doesn't stop them from still having to eat.
Probably not, but it saves some dignity whilst having to do so.
Brian Moore tells it as it is;
Given he deserves no respect, I refuse to use the official title of President ****puffin I will use my own title of President Shit-Gibbon.
"Relax gun control
Imprison Clinton
Ditch NATO
End trade deals with China, Mexico and Canada.
Deport all 11million illegal Mexicans.
Ban Muslims from entering America
Imprison women who have abortions
Put all mosques under surveillance
Build a **** off wall along the border
Cancel the Paris climate deal ( coz global warming is a hoax, obvs)
End the peace deal with Iran
Bomb the shit out of IS
Encourage Japan and Korea to develop nuclear arsenals ?"According to his acceptance speech, none of the above. Unless he mentioned it at the end after it got so boring and irrelevant R4 switched him off.
But this is what he does. Just says whatever people want to hear. He knew the world was listening...
EDIT - just to add - there are things that he says and things that he will do. Don't assume they will be consistent...
I think we are seeing a great swell of people effectively flicking V's to what they perceive to be the Establishment in the only way they can these days, through the ballot box.
Yes Trumps just as much of the establishment as Clinton, but he doesn't come across as such so that's basically what has to do, just like Farage and Brexit.
You can argue what you like but in the last 20 years we have swung between Labour/Democrat and Tory/Republican but what has really changed, nothing, they just kept interest rates low and credit easy so that we thought that we were feeding from the same trough as them, we were not.
"But this is what he does. Just says whatever people want to hear."
Yup. Small parties have been doing it for years. Big parties tend not to because they know they look stupid if they get in and fail to do what they promised.
Should they though? Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?
I like immigration. I like the fact I can hear as much Polish as English spoken in my part of Weymouth.
The Polish contingent of young workers in Didcot seem to me a far better crowd than many of the other locals. And I liked the fact that I was able to live elsewhere in the world for a while and work there, I can't therefore deny that right to others.
As it stands at the moment, although Trump is massively ahead in the college electoral votes, he's only actually ahead by 326,115 votes. That's 0.1% of a population of 300,000,000 or 0.3% of the total votes for Clinton and Trump.
There's enough margin for error there to make this highly contentious
A disturbing read...
“I put lipstick on a pig,” he said. “I feel a deep sense of remorse that I contributed to presenting Trump in a way that brought him wider attention and made him more appealing than he is.” He went on, “I genuinely believe that if Trump wins and gets the nuclear codes there is an excellent possibility it will lead to the end of civilization.”
[url= http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all ]http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all[/url]
Probably not, but it saves some dignity whilst having to do so.
True that, but the enlightened 'none of the above' or abstainees didn't decide the outcome. The ones that don't usually vote simply because it changes nothing in their lives had their buttons pushed.
Should they though? Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?
My point exactly. Positive effect for who?
What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.
You struggle to grasp that for some it is not positive.
True that, but the enlightened 'none of the above' or abstainees didn't decide the outcome.
True, but there was no good outcome. Just, arguably, a less bad.
I'm not too happy with 'stupid' but can live with it. I'm very unhappy with racist being the default insult.
Im sorry eddiebaby, I equated voting for a racist with being a racist, which isnt true
However, even if you dont agree with all of what they say you are still supporting them
especially when the referendum 'debate' featured racism from prominent leavers and pro leave media
Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?
let's go and stand at different ends of the swimming pool, don't worry if you can't swim, its only three feet deep on average.
My point exactly. Positive effect for who?What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.
You struggle to grasp that for some it is not positive.
I would say they are scapegoating the wrong people for their unemployment because they are thick enough to believe racist demagogues?
There is little evidence that more migrants push wages down or unemployment up. Economists from the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics say that when they look at the areas with the largest increase in EU immigration, these have not seen the sharpest falls in employment or wages since 2008.Jonathan Wadsworth, one of the authors of the CEP report and a former member of the government’s Migration Advisory Committee, says: “There is still no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on jobs, [or] wages.
https://www.ft.com/content/0deacb52-178b-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/brexit/abstract.asp?index=5053
You are really using the wrong example though
you should be asking why the communities and councils that have to support the immigrants dont get a proportionate increase in funding-
That the financial benefits of immigration are not put back into these communities is not the fault of immigration it is the fault of the government.
oldmanmtb - Member
As my 85 year old Father observed i have seen this before...
He must have been an exceptional 2 year old back in 1933! 😆
Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?
Because moving a second family into my house would make it twice as wealthy overnight. (If one of them played a musical instrument there would even be a cultural benefit.) That's a pretty quick way to double my household economy. But would having a second family in my house be good for me? Yes, my house would be twice as wealthy, but do I want that?
Same with my local town. It has to increase by 33pc in the next 18 years. It will become at least 33pc more wealthy. But will it be a better place to live for it? No, it'll be far worse.
Go to work CIA, just like you did with Kennedy! 8)
What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.
Haven't met too many like that.
Met some that are trapped in areas without jobs and no possibility of moving.
Met lazy, nasty bigots who you would trust to do any job.
Met some that thought school was "sh1t" and aren't educated enough to be suitable for jobs.
Met some that had a catastrophic home life and are effectively ruined adults that can't get a job because of failed parenting.
Met some that were in one job and dont have much in the way of easily transferable skills.
But those explicitly prevented from work due to immigration. None.
Back in town, local UKIP councillor Stephen Raven gives a blunt answer why many locals refuse to do the picking and packing agriculture jobs: because "we're lazy".
My point exactly. Positive effect for who?What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.
You struggle to grasp that for some it is not positive.
It is positive for the country as a whole. Who and how many people are actually struggling to find work because of immigration? I would guess you don't have the numbers.
But the numbers don't matter when you can put the idea into peoples heads which they then believe and then back you in the polls.
I might have to (sadly) cross Finland off my list of places to move in 2 years' time.
You could always move to Russia instead 😉
But the numbers don't matter when you can put the idea into peoples heads which they then believe and then back you in the polls.
Post truth politics. It doesn't matter if it's all a load of bollocks if you can get people to believe it. And it's actually easier to sell complete bollocks because you don't have any inconvenient bits.
A lesson there for all politicians, one I'm sure they'll mostly pick up on. It does mean democracy is broken, because the fundamental principles of democracy are deeper than one man one vote. If those votes can be bought through lies, then the system really is rigged.
You Maniacs!!
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Same with my local town. It has to increase by 33pc in the next 18 years. It will become at least 33pc more wealthy. But will it be a better place to live for it? No, it'll be far worse.
Why? Is it the fault of the immigrants, or the people who won't plan for the expansion and invest?
let's go and stand at different ends of the swimming pool, don't worry if you can't swim, its only three feet deep on average.
A needlessly sarcastic way to make the point that the benefit is not spread evenly. But why not? Why not manage it properly for the benefit of all? Why not mitigate the downsides and gain the benefits?
Simply blaming the immigrants is wrong, imo. And it's too easy to do, because they stand out because they are foreign.
What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.
If there weren't immigrants, the economy would be smaller and there wouldn't be as many jobs. Immigrants shop at Tesco, they have bank accounts and put money in them. They do jobs, their companies get the revenue from the jobs they do.
For sure there are disadvantaged people, but it's not BECAUSE of the immigrants, it's because the government stand back and don't bother managing things properly.
"Post truth politics. It doesn't matter if it's all a load of bollocks if you can get people to believe it."
They don't have to believe it.
They just have to think you're more effective than the other candidate.
So Trumps says he'll double growth. Nobody believes it but they think "If he promises to double it he might increase it slightly whereas Clinton won't."
