I honestly believe that, without extreme violence, it would be impossible to take the wealth away from the extremely wealthy.
Nothing has ever changed without a group of people loudly and relentlessly demanding the impossible.
"The US is a third world country for a large percentage of its population. There is, in my opinion, nothing to be admired or looked up to. It is a **** terrible, broken place. Rife with hatred and religious zeolatoary."
US is a big place and that's not my experience of regular visits, time spent working there.
There are lots of kind generous thoughtful people there, just like everywhere in the world. Also, plenty of idiots, but we also grow plenty of those here. The riots over the summer weren't that great an advertisement for the UK, neither was the brexit vote and the last decade of politics, frankly.
We don't murder children on such a regular basis with firearms that it is basically accepted though to my knowledge. Nor do we make basic health care an impossibility for some or a crippling debt for others. We aren't perfect but we're a damned sight better than the US. At least for now!
US is a big place and that’s not my experience of regular visits, time spent working there
US society is highly stratified. When you go to visit middle class family and friends or go and work with professional colleagues you don't see the problems. Thing is, neither do they.
The riots over the summer weren’t that great an advertisement for the UK
I thought they were actually. A very small minority of blatantly racist individuals, of which are common to all countries, decided to riot. They were eventually defeated by the mass turnout of decent Brits who decided to take back control of our streets from the far-right. The scenes of what happened in Walthamstow, which signaled the end of the racist rioting, will never leave me.
Contrast that with incidents of hostels for asylum seekers being set alight in Germany, for example. IIRC the response typically has been for crowds to gather and cheer the perpetrators on.
I totally agree that the demonisation of the American people is inappropriate though. Although maybe not of their political and economic structures.
I’ve spent about maybe 5 years there in stays for work and much of the descriptions above and the people I met and talk to most days is not what I have experience off. There are some extremes of poverty and some very rich people but mostly there’s a comfortable middle class. Until you lose your job or get old without significant savings.
That said Europe has had since 1945 to stand on its own two feet and maybe this is the wake-up call to do just that and not rely on the US.
When you go to visit middle class family and friends or go and work with professional colleagues you don’t see the problems.
Obviously we all have our social bubbles but we also go travelling a lot, including hick villages in the middle of redneckistan, and still don't recognise your description. Some inner city areas are problematic but then again the cities are overwhelmingly democrat.
Watched some silly hysterical woman on X having a full blown meltdown when the result was announced. She was then in tears because she's reckons that when she wakes up in the morning she'll be a slave.
His 'green' policies will be either nil or the barest he can get away with.
There has been a fight for many years to protect Antarctica and North Alaska from drilling for oil. Trump wants to drill for oil. He wants to rid our planet of its natural resources.
He's a criminal, a distasteful, selfish, raping, lying, narcissistic, people (especially women) hating toad and I can't stand him. I'd like to get more personal but it will just wind me up for the rest of the day.
His ‘green’ policies will be either nil or the barest he can get away with.
Shares in US renewables companies tanked after he won.
jhinwxm
Free Member
Watched some silly hysterical woman on X having a full blown meltdown when the result was announced. She was then in tears because she’s reckons that when she wakes up in the morning she’ll be a slave.
She should storm a building or something. 😉
Being a bit teary at a pivotal election loss is pretty natural, pretending it ever happened with zero evidence and people getting shot over it is a bit "silly" though imo...
I’d happily pay more tax to have a fairer society but I reckon I’m in a minority.
Donations gratefully accepted https://www.gov.uk/guidance/voluntary-payments-donations-to-government
Doubt it will make much difference to achieving a fairer society though.
Watched some silly hysterical woman on X having a full blown meltdown when the result was announced. She was then in tears because she’s reckons that when she wakes up in the morning she’ll be a slave.
Can't think how the silly little goose could have gotten that idea.
#YourBodyMyChoiceForever
Is Musk angling to become President in the future? If so, he's going full on Bond Villain whilst the whole World watches.
But the only alternate wouldn’t go after the wealthy either!
So as a reason for choosing a party, we can rule that out.
And we're back to square one. Things will remain the same and the wealth divide will continue to increase. It is a two party system, neither of which cares about equity.
“The US is a third world country for a large percentage of its population. There is, in my opinion, nothing to be admired or looked up to. It is a **** terrible, broken place. Rife with hatred and religious zeolatoary.”
I've seen USA referred to as a very rich Latin American Country which fits better than third world.
This is related to the discussion, honestly!
Has anyone read a series of 3 SF books called The Red Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trilogy
The riots over the summer weren’t that great an advertisement for the UK
I thought they were actually.
Indeed - I've yet to see any of the convicted rioters offered a job in government (or even have ministers squabble over who gets to offer him a job first), the ear of the prime minister or be championed by the national press a la Kyle Rittenhouse for instance
Rittenhouse has been publicly offered multiple internships, all by Republican lawmakers. On November 17, 2021, two days before the jury's decision, Florida House Representative Matt Gaetz offered him an internship. In response, Arizona House Representative Paul Gosar tweeted he would arm-wrestle Gaetz for the chance to have Rittenhouse as an intern.On the day the jury found Rittenhouse not guilty on all charges, North Carolina House Representative Madison Cawthorn offered Rittenhouse an internship. During an appearance on Newsmax, Colorado House Representative Lauren Boebert responded to Cawthorn's offer and challenged Cawthorn, who is bound to a wheelchair, to "a sprint" to employ Rittenhouse as an intern. In response to Gaetz, Gosar, and Cawthorn offering the internships, Missouri House representative Cori Bush called for their expulsion, tweeting "Not only do these members fuel violence. Now they're actively recruiting someone whose sole qualification is killing people standing up for Black lives and getting away with it."
I’ve seen USA referred to as a very rich Latin American Country
That's actually a reasonable comment imo. Approximately 130 years ago Argentina was the wealthiest country in the world per capita, certainly a hundred odd years ago it was in the top 10. Today it is a poor third world country
So what went wrong? Well mostly politics. Argentina has/had basically everything that the United States has/had. The difference I guess was the politics. So for all their failings, including political, the United States does get some things right.
Although to fair the United States was massively helped by WW2 - it gave them unprecedented business opportunities whilst simultaneously destroying all the industries of all their main competitors. Truly God loves America!
Edit : Perhaps to make the point clearer the reason that "the USA is a very rich Latin American country" is because it is the only one, post civil war, that has maintained political stability. No other country in the Americas has.
Edit 2 : Ironically, although perhaps not very surprising, much, if not all, the political instability in the Americas can be traced back to the United States.
Obviously we all have our social bubbles but we also go travelling a lot, including hick villages in the middle of redneckistan, and still don’t recognise your description
Right, but you're "travelling" so presumably looking in as a tourist. As I believe I have mentioned my wife's American and I've spent a lot of time there over the years talking to plenty of people.
Funny to see the response to the allegation that middle class people don't see the problems is people saying 'well I haven't seen any problems'.
Funny to see the response to the allegation that middle class people don’t see the problems is people saying ‘well I haven’t seen any problem
No the answer is that you appear to be judging the whole American middle class based on your narrow experience, I know American middle class people, including close family, who fully get the inequality in American society.
A lot of people on the left do but they are bound by the FPTP system and they cannot say what they feel. We’ve done this to death already.
There is no left option in the US. Just right and further right. I believe that is a huge part of the problem.
So color me puzzled, but how come Dems held the Pennsylvania House, but lost PA to Trump. Why was there not a similar swing for local politicians?
https://twitter.com/TarikforPA/status/1854865570757328915
So color me puzzled, but how come Dems held the Pennsylvania House, but lost PA to Trump
The republican / trump fundraising has been pretty poor, and also to a great extent funds were channelled from those fund raising efforts to pay his legal bills (which in a sense worked out as pretty good value for trump)
Further to that though the RNC (or more to the point Lara Trump) gave all the centrally raised funds for the Party and gave them to Trump's campaign and took a sizeable cut of money raised locally by state, senate and congressional campaigns and funnelled that to Trump's campaign too. So the Trump campaign was effectively cut off funding to local campaigns and then helped itself to their own coffers too
Trump is not a republican, he's a cuckoo in the republican nest. A good chunk of the people who vote for him aren't interested in other republican politicians.
There is no left option in the US. Just right and further right. I believe that is a huge part of the problem.
A huge part of what problem? There is no real appetite in the country as a whole for what we would call the left, but why is that a problem to us ? Their issues are to a large degree internalised, and externally, we're more affected by their current anti-globalisation policies, which aren't really a left/right issue.
Except unlike Argentina the ruling classes in the US are predominantly WASP’s and have been for a very long time.
I am not sure that explains why Argentina was one of the wealthiest nations on Earth a hundred years ago, or why the UK has been in decline for the last hundred years.
Btw uniquely in Latin America the British provided the backbone of the business community in Argentina. Post WW2 Argentina had the largest British community outside the British Empire/Commonwealth.
There is a reason why Bueno Aires had a Harrods, polo clubs, and British public schools.
It's bizarre. They think a man whose businesses, including casinos, have gone bust multiple times, is such a whizz at business and economics that they are going to get higher wages, lower taxes, and lower inflation. They won't of course, but just like the brexiters, they will then pivot to claiming that it wasn't about money, but about freedom, as they watch 20 million people being rounded up into camps and deported. Oh wait, that won't happen either, because Trump and all his mates are dependent on the cheap labour the immigrants supply.
There is no real appetite in the country as a whole for what we would call the left, but why is that a problem to us ?
Well, aside from the fact that their carbon emissions affect us - I personally am not happy when people are getting shat on regardless of whether or not they were born in the same country as me.
bruneep
Full Memb https://twitter.com/JoshEakle/status/1852846929409130531Explaining tariffs to a MAGA
Lord all mighty. Imagine voting Trump due to the cost of living, as many did, then having the effects of tariffs explained... then finding that it might make inflation go up again even on products not directly hit by tariffs as the price increases filter through the economy.
It would actually be amusing if it wasn't so tragic. The thing is, he understood it once he took time to listen to it being explained, it's just willful ignorance! That's the annoying bit, he was almost proud of it. I bet he spends hours "explaining" bitcoin to his friends or anyone else that's in earshot too! He's practically a techbro.
As fender says, this isn't just a US problem though... Sigh.
Well, aside from the fact that their carbon emissions affect us – I personally am not happy when people are getting shat on regardless of whether or not they were born in the same country as me.
Oh, for sure. But I think that there are many regimes that deserve our attention, anger, and energy far more than Trump's. Whilst he's a despicable person, and a buffoon, most Americans will forgive him that if they feel they're no longer being shat on. And that, ultimately is what they'll judge him on, and I think that's a reasonable call for them to make.
And, as you're well aware the US is a federation, with much of the culpability for its problems equally, or more so, blameable on its state governments. I spent several weeks last year travelling in the US, after not being there for 15 years or so, and of the places I visited the 2 states with what seemed to me to be the biggest decline in were California and Hawaii, both of which have longterm Democrat governments.
Has anyone ever found themselves skint? And not only that but with no obvious routes out of being skint and basically resigning yourself to a life of disappointments and eventual death after many years of misery?
Most of my life, undiagnosed ms on top of a spinal injury meant I had periods of time where I did work but also periods of time where I relied on benefits, had umpteen issues working as the ms flared up multiple times a year which reduced me to crawling around/eysight issues/balance issues etc but docs refused to sign me off/told me I had nothing wrong with me so spent many weeks with no income at all.
Still live in the same 1bed bungalow I got from Dumfries/galloway council 30 years ago, still on disability benefits/housing paid for and spend every single pound I get on just attempting to exist but at no point have I ever considered that a “trump” or “Farage” style candidate is the one to vote for
I fully agree that our form of government/capitalism/taxation…whatever has utterly failed a vast swathe of the population over the previous 40 years but the likes of trump/Farage or other right wing populists is never the answer.
What is the answer?, I dunno if an answer or solution is now possible without a concerted effort involving every single western government to deal with such issues, and on top of the social issues we now have the effects of climate change, mass migration, trade wars, actual wars, destruction of natural resources etc..etc.
Time to admit, there is a swathe of the population that are ****s
(if that above doesn’t make sense then ignore it, my meds are kicking in 😉
It would actually be amusing if it wasn’t so tragic. The thing is, he understood it once he took time to listen to it being explained, it’s just willful ignorance!
I'm not sure. For some people, maybe. For most, it's being explained in a completely different way.
I've been listening to more Joe Rogan, because I'm trying to understand the mindset. Latest episode is with some 'comedian and political commentator' no idea who he is. They spend 20 minutes talking about a graph that shows historical vote counts for Republican and Democrat with conveniently odd patterns, which of course prove the 2020 election was rigged. 2 minutes research will tell you that it's a completely fake graph, but here we are, with the biggest long form platform in the world, and one that people trust, and they'll talk about this shit for hours in detail. Rogan is also very good at branding anyone who disagrees as a loser, so you have this natural pack mentality, which of course is normal human behaviour, because of you're not part of the pack you're going to get shit on. Then you have the likes of Elon Musk (who seems to be glued to Trump recently) using one of the biggest platforms in the world to share this kind of stuff also, whilst successfully getting the message across that he's doing it to save us from misinformation.
Yes, people can dig deeper from a more balanced pot of information, and many do, but on an evolutionary scale that's just not how the majority work. Thinking requires a lot of resource and energy. Most are happy to leave it to people they trust: the Musks and Rogans of the world. If you have somebody who makes cars drive themselves, and land rockets like Thunderbirds, they must know what they're talking about.
What's even scarier, is that I get the sense even Musk believes some of this stuff. My only hypothesis for that is that he's at the peak of the Dunning Kruger effect across multiple different subjects. It's an impossibility to have the expertise in the number of subjects he believes he does.
I try to be optimistic about the future but some days I just think we're ****ed.
Apologies if this is a duplicate, it's a long thread.
https://twitter.com/EricLDaugh/status/1855001866343424409
Eric Daugherty
@EricLDaugh
#NEW: Trump team is readying a "slate of executive orders" slashing climate change directives, bolstering fossil fuels - NYT
This includes:
- Pulling out of the Paris climate agreement
- Shrinking national monument size in the west to allow more drilling, mining
- Ending every office in every agency that works to end pollution on the basis of diversity
Last edited
9:38 PM · Nov 8, 2024
I just caught up with the election thread. Has our pet Trump supporter gone away? Shame if so, I was reminded of this:
Cougar2
Free Member
I just caught up with the election thread. Has our pet Trump supporter gone away?
I think he's just realised that China doesn't pay the tariffs Trump is going to impose... so is re-evaluating his position.
In fairness, he was polite from memory.
In fairness, he was polite from memory.
Sure.
I'm a firm believer in calling bollocks out as bollocks. And, there was a lot of bollocks. But play the ball not the man (something I fail at sometimes). Calling people trolls for the crime of disagreeing with you does neither side any favours (something else I fail at sometimes).
Trump wins Arizona to complete a clean sweep of the seven swing states
Well that’s impressive, I wonder when was the last time that anyone managed to do that? No one can argue that Trump hasn’t got a clear mandate.
Considering the sort of deeply divisive person that Trump is this will no doubt simply feed the growing polarisation of American society.
I know it’s de rigueur on here to attack people who disagree and call them idiots but it’s ironic the people doing so don’t actually understand the subject they are spouting on about.
Considering the sort of deeply divisive person that Trump is this will no doubt simply feed the growing polarisation of American society.
The likelihood is the polarisation will get more and more baked in - not just in terms of rhetoric. Something that has started to happen as things have become more deadlocked nationally is people are voting with their feet and moving to a state that matches their political preference .
Compared to the quite fickle voting patterns in the uk where we can have quite large swing from one party to the other the US vote share has become more and fixed in recent years. Really quite small margins between presidential candidates, the senate has been pretty much balanced 50:50 for the last 25 years and the House is steadily getting closer and closer towards deadlock too
The founding fathers really had no idea about how to write a robust constitution did they?
Someone should have done them a favour and taken their pens and paper away.
I think the concept of an electoral college as a tool to choose a president is hard to justify imo.
people are voting with their feet and moving to a state that matches their political preference .
That isn't something that I had thought about but it makes sense. And presumably will add to the centrifugal forces which might eventually lead to the breakup of the Union?
So many US states seem to have so little in common with each other.
Have we touched on the weirdness of Trump, right before the election that seemed so close that no-one would call it, saying multiple times that people don't need to vote?
Just bragging. It’s his MO.
Yeah there's no need to make up some stupid conspiracy theory shit when he's just saying his polling shows he's going to win by miles.
Can we stop laughing at USA citizens voting for trade tariffs and clamping down on immigrants…? We’ve been voting for that for a while in the UK. It’s default politics here now… politicians proposing anything else are like Kryptonite to the key “town & country” voters that swing elections.
Trump made gains with almost all demographics, perhaps Democrats could try listening to and addressing the concerns of ordinary people rather than labelling them all as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving morons.
And presumably will add to the centrifugal forces which might eventually lead to the breakup of the Union?
Eventually?? I recall speaking to quite a few US tourists around 8 years ago, just before the first Trump presidency. They were mostly from California and when I inquired about the option of ceding from the USA they just couldn't get their heads around the concept at all. It was like we were suddenly speaking a different language.
perhaps Democrats could try listening to and addressing the concerns of ordinary people rather than labelling them all as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving morons.
That didn't happen, but you've made your position clear.
The US has elected a criminal, and taken off the safeties that should reign in a rogue prez.
Watch affordable care and social security be rolled back. Watch California burn some more and Florida get washed away. Tax cuts for the very, very rich? Yes please.
Once that's done the trailer park people will feel better about the economy, right?
Bad things will happen, it will go wrong, and a snap back to a more inclusive politic will seem welcome in 4 years.
perhaps Democrats could try listening to and addressing the concerns of ordinary people rather than labelling them all as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving morons.
I worked for a company with the HQ in Houston.
The well paid operational jobs, who went in the field, were 100% white.
There were a few black people in the warehouse and none in the management & admin office jobs.
The USA is still fundamentally a racist country.
Trump is a racist misogynist. Of that there is no doubt.
As for fascism, he did declare a desire for "Generals like Hitler's". There's also the little matter of Project 2025.
If you are not a racist misogynistic idiot don't vote for someone who is.
And presumably will add to the centrifugal forces which might eventually lead to the breakup of the Union?
Eventually?? I recall speaking to quite a few US tourists around 8 years ago, just before the first Trump presidency. They were mostly from California and when I inquired about the option of ceding from the USA they just couldn’t get their heads around the concept at all. It was like we were suddenly speaking a different language.
This is mostly a Russian-bot phenomena (just now anyway) - there was a 'Calexit' social media trend in the days after Trump's first victory, but all initially originating from Russian troll accounts.
Theres is however a bit of secessionist movement among republicans in Texas - 10 new state legislature representatives elected this time round that are campaigning for an independence referendum. Across all the elected posts that we're on the ballot last week (county commissioners, sheriffs, judges, dog catchers as so on) 190 were independence campaigners.
https://twitter.com/davegreenidge57/status/1855196082524790896/
Is Elon going to get his money’s worth? It seems likely.
but all initially originating from Russian troll accounts.
Not all I think. The California National Party is a centre-left party and I dunno but I think it enjoys a bit more support than the Russian backed right-wing Yes California party, although still nothing significant.
rather than labelling them all as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving morons
This argument feels so familiar. Trump’s TV campaigns used transphobia to try and move more socially conservative voters in swing states toward voting for him, or at least not voting for Harris. Pointing this out is not labelling “all” ordinary people transphobic, it is simply looking at the tactics used. Same goes for deliberate dog whistles about immigrants eating pets, or expressing respect for demagogic leaders and nods towards “never having to vote again”… this all need calling out when politicians do it, and to do so is not labelling “ordinary people” anything, it is examining how the political classes (yes, Trump is a politician through and through) garner support to win power.
You argument also feels familiar. To take your transphobia example there's many people who think giving children puberty blockers/cross sex hormones/surgery and having biological men compete in womens sport is a bad idea. They have valid reasons for thinking this, instead of engaging with them and presenting the counter argument all too often they're labelled as transphobic and dismissed which just further entrenches people into their positions.
Until everyone manages to calm down and starts engaging with people who have a different opinion to them rather than just accusing them of some ism the polarisation will continue.
The over use of all the isms just makes them meaningless.
I just saw some interesting polling on this point by Blueprint (I hadn’t heard of them before). For this polling group at least, it was the No. 1 reason given by swing voters that didn’t support Harris.
https://blueprint2024.com/polling/why-trump-reasons-11-8/
Talking to non MAGA Americans the other day - they just seem the value of their dollar shrink. They know as finance professionals that the underlying causes are world events but still blame the Democratic Party.
Lord all mighty. Imagine voting
TrumpLeave due to the cost of living, asmanysome undoubtedly did, then having the effects oftariffsleaving a successful and low friction trading bloc explained then finding that it might make inflation go upagaineven on products not directlyhit by tariffsinfluenced by the bloc as the price increases filter through the economy.
It's not so very different.
perhaps Democrats could try listening to and addressing the concerns of ordinary people rather than labelling them all as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving morons.
Call me Captain Obvious but the simple solution to not being labelled as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving moron is to not be those things. It's not the Democrats talking about building a wall to keep the Mexicans out, making discrimination against homosexuality legal and blanket-banning abortion nationwide now, is it.
To take your transphobia example there’s many people who think giving children puberty blockers/cross sex hormones/surgery and having biological men compete in womens sport is a bad idea.
And there are plenty who take their own lives as children or teenagers when they can't get help because of these "thoughts" you hold so dear. I suppose they're just collateral damage? Many of the luckier ones class themselves as survivors. You can "think" what you like but no-one has any right to tell other people what they can or cannot do with their bodies and to suggest otherwise is an incredibly dangerous precedence to be setting. We had one trans woman who was a popular contributor to this forum bullied off from here a couple of years back because of others' "thoughts" that they refused to keep to themselves despite her writing a heartfelt explanation of just how much their words hurt. Who knows how many more went silently and we never knew.
The sport thing is a wholly different topic of conversation IMHO. That's complicated enough to be a thread in its own right. It does seem to quite often be an argument favoured by the transphobe though, that and "yes but rapists in toilets." At which point I'd refer them to my first sentence here.
You have seen Project 25, right? You do realise what you're defending here? If not then you should go read it; if so then, well, back to my first sentence with you too.
You can “think” what you like but no-one has any right to tell other people what they can or cannot do with their bodies and to suggest otherwise is an incredibly dangerous precedence to be setting.
Yes they do and society has always worked that way. It's just that what is acceptable changes over time. The things society doesn't find acceptable are generally dismissed as invalid by saying they're a result of mental illness or coercion. Suicide is currently illegal but I hope assisted dying is legalised in my lifetime. Trans people are slowly becoming more accepted by parts of society but there will always be pushback to change. It's taken a long while for gay people to be generally accepted and it's not yet complete,
Suicide is illegal? What are we going to do, send cadavers to jail for a couple of months, maybe release them to the crem after 18 months for good behaviour?
I think perhaps you slightly missed my point whilst agreeing with it. 🙂 I'm not saying people dictating to others what they can do with their bodies doesn't happen. I'm saying that it's wrong. ( @tjagain to the forum... )
Call me Captain Obvious but the simple solution to not being labelled as racist, misogynistic, transphobic, fascism loving moron is to not be those things.
Amen to that. It's got a lot less to do with wealth, prospects, 'class' or whatever else than people like to admit.
Voting for Trump is inexcusable. He's a ****, and so are the people who vote for him.
Voting for Trump is inexcusable. He’s a ****, and so are the people who vote for him.
So the majority of American voters are ****s. Nice.
So the majority of American voters are ****. Nice.
The statistics don't lie... same as with brexit....
So the majority of American voters are ****. Nice.
As with brexit the majority didn't vote for him, so your point is incorrect.
However those that voted for him due to agreeing with his misogynistic, racist and horrific policies are absolutely c###s
As with brexit the majority didn’t vote for him, so your point is incorrect.
My point is perfectly correct. I said "the majority of American voters".
Ok put like that then yes clearly the majority of American voters are exactly that c###s
Is Elon going to get his money’s worth? It seems likely.
That depends if he gets put forward as the Republican's next presidential candidate.
Mrs Slow pointed me toward's an article in yesterday's Guardian in response to Trump's victory. I particularly liked the contribution of Ece Temelkuran.