LOL at the resident troll re-emerging when it looks like their idle will probably get away with it in this round.
FTFY 😉
Good opening argument and video montage - i'm convinced! Not that it'll matter.
(warning it includes a protestor getting shot)
FTFY 😉
I had to read it three times as well. “Wut... wut... Oh...”
Given that he wanted to shake the.three, drain the swamp. Bring new things to American politics.
I think, just for him and following this lead, the should stop using the "president" honourific.
The Demoncrats must be rejoicing now that they got the chance to prevent (former/Ex whatever) President Trump from returning to politics. They knew very well that they had short term sleepy bloke in office at the moment so try to use all tricks to prevent him having a go in politics again in few years time. This sleepy bloke with his entourage are a disaster and will push many nations towards the east. Pui!
I think, just for him and following this lead, the should stop using the “president” honourific.
I think "Disgraced Former President" is the technically most accurate, although I'm fond of "Ranting Shitgibbon" myself.
Apologies for quoting myself, but do try to remember this:
The best analogy I have for the Brexit and Trump cultists is the difference between an adult and a child watching an episode of The Simpsons – they’re both watching exactly the same script, but have a vastly different understanding of the jokes.
The various lawsuits and financial woes in Trumps future are a little ray of sunshine in an otherwise grey world. I wish him incompetent defence lawyers and empty bank balances.
Given this...
'I solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be,) that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of _______, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: so help me God.'
Why are senators allowed to vote along party lines in the main during an impeachment? You'd struggle to say Trump's legal team persuaded you yesterday. And a 'trial' is all about the evidence presented. A secret ballot would help IMO.
A secret ballot
arrrghhhh... must resist
but, of course it’s political, how could it not be?
but, of course it’s political, how could it not be?
That's what I don't understand. Not a constitutional expert, but why are impeachment trials the responsibility of the senate rather than, say, the supreme court?
but why are impeachment trials the responsibility of the senate rather than, say, the supreme court?
Because it's written in the U.S. Constitution. I think the Founding Fathers thought the Senate would be less political than it turned out. It's easy to criticize in hindsight, but the U.S. system was quite remarkable back then and they didn't have much in the way of examples to follow.
One point is that impeachment is not a criminal trial. "High crimes and misdemeanors" doesn't mean criminal conduct, but conduct that is a betrayal of the responsibilities of the office. The bar for conviction is set quite high so that parties can't sack presidents of the opposing party on a bare majority vote.
I don’t get that either.
Seems a bit of a joke from my perspective, although that is from a position of ignorance.
It would make things interesting if they had a witness from Trump's circle under oath. What was he doing in the White House whilst the Capitol was being breached and reinforcements weren't forthcoming? Members of WH staff maybe. If this was being done properly you'd take as long as it takes to pull all these people in for interview.
I want to watch this guy react to videos of Maga rioters shouting anti-Semitic slogans
Yeh, you'd think even a lawyer might be a bit uncomfortable with the neo-nazi symbols, 6MWE badges, and Auschwitz references.
Does make me wonder if employing a defence attorney that happens to be an observant Jew is a cynical ploy to distance Trump from some of the deeply anti-Semitic MAGA/QAnon insurrectionists.
The "but some of my best attorneys are Jewish" defence?
The point of the trail is to remedy not to be punitive, and it’s only outcome is removal or disbarment, and the rules are traditionally “the house sorting out its own affairs” without having all those nasty lawyers and judges involved.
it’s always been politics, right from the off
Starting to think the bars been set too high anyway, not sure why they went for incitement of insurrection rather than election interference (assuming interference is impeachable). They've got to prove premeditation + establish a clear link between Trump's behaviour and the riot on the 6th.
Pod Save America has been good on the impeachment. Obviously heavily biased from the Dem side but good background explainers on some of the characters involved etc.
Starting to think the bars been set too high anyway, not sure why they went for incitement of insurrection rather than election interference (assuming interference is impeachable). They’ve got to prove premeditation + establish a clear link between Trump’s behaviour and the riot on the 6th.
But surely this whole think is now just going through the motions. He won't get convicted whatever the charge. Only 6 republicans voted to continue with this impeachment on constitutional grounds - they are never going to get another 11 that voted the other way to vote for a conviction. The prosecution could find a taped recording of Trump saying he hoped the rioters killed every last senator and planning a militia takeover whilst fisting an elephant and they would still find him innocent.
The only point in going on now is to make the republican party look stupid and completely without morals. And I'm not sure that's going to sway many voters either sadly. I've come to the conclusion that sadly all this is now is a circus taking away the focus from any new professional gloss the Biden administration is adding to the appearance of governance in the US.
The only point in going on now is to make the republican party look stupid and completely without morals. And I’m not sure that’s going to sway many voters either sadly.
Firstly, I think it's important to put Trump's behaviour into the historical record, even if he will be acquitted.
Second, this provides a way to link senators to Trump for the next election. The Republican base will punish any senator who votes to convict, but moderate voters strongly rejected Trump in the 2018 midterms and 2020 presidential election. This will force Republican senators to try to justify their support for Trump.
I’ve come to the conclusion that sadly all this is now is a circus taking away the focus from any new professional gloss the Biden administration is adding to the appearance of governance in the US.
there was poll in texas that said Biden had a 41% approval rating among republican voters sorry not concentrating all voters (higher than the rep governor)
Seems a bit of a joke from my perspective, although that is from a position of ignorance.
Impeachment is a relatively untested process. I guess it wasn't expected to be used, its there more as a safety net when imagining how a country will govern itself in future.
this is only the forth time its been used, it has never been used successfully. The fact that its been used twice for the same person suggests that the process is flawed
The copy of the constitute being waved around by the defence council last night was a surprisingly slim pamphlet - it actually looked like he'd bought it from the gift shop on his way in. There are very few words and much is left to interpretation which is probably why the constitution is such a perennial talking point.
Given the debate revolves around what an impeachment trial even is and the defence relying more on that than the charges against trump - maybe its time for an amendment. One that clarifies the terms but also protects the process from politics
The senators are voting down party lines - some of that is bat-shittery, some of it is craven self interest. But a republican voting to impeach trump has to accept that doing so will bring with it a real threat of death - senators of both parties were the target of the invasion of the Capitol - there was a gallows out side with a Republican's name on it. You wouldn't run a juried trial on the basis that the jurors and their votes are known and that their actions would hold them up as traitors in the eyes of a sizeable chunk of the population.
Trump was like watching a horror show in a far off land. The fact it was all real just added to the sense of despair. Yes, it was terrifying when I intermittently realised it could easily happen to us but there was just enough detachment that I could enjoy my outrage, enjoy the fact that I'd be a more competent 'leader of the free world' (Gah, what a stupid title that is). 'No drama' Biden is so boring and this doomed-to-fail impeachment isn't helping.
I longed for Biden to finally take the reins and now I think I actually miss Trump. Does that make me a bad person?
Anyway, here's sassy ol' Hillary throwing some shade.
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1359524284469817349?s=20
There's no way that the Capitol riot was spontaneous - Trump had been tweeting about the 6th Jan for weeks beforehand. At least one member of Congress reports that their panic alarm button was "torn out" of their office wall.
It's not just Democrats who had reason to fear the mob - the video of Eugene Goodman pointing Mitt Romney away from the crowd can be seen here.
While it's probably safe to say that the Republican senators will close ranks and there won't be sufficient numbers to pass the impeachment, it's also obvious that investigations are ongoing and we haven't heard the end of this. Does anyone really think that an angry mob would stop to ask any senators they encountered of their party affiliation?
There’s no way that the Capitol riot was spontaneous – Trump had been tweeting about the 6th Jan for weeks beforehand.
I agree with this.
At least one member of Congress reports that their panic alarm button was “torn out” of their office wall.
That is apparently being investigated, but there may have been a mistake in recording who was assigned to that office. The alarms my have been removed because they thought the office was supposed to remain vacant. They apparently remove the buttons so they don't get triggered by accident when furniture is being moved. I suspect that a dumb mistake is much more likely than deliberate malice.
Don’t know if this has already been posted but the evidence tendered against trump in the attached is pretty horrific (and very well prepared)
https://time.com/5938095/video-capitol-riot-impeachment-trial/
WRT disbarring Trump from high office, is this voted on only if guilty by 2/3 majority, or is it a separate vote?
That video is a much watch.
WRT disbarring Trump from high office, is this voted on only if guilty by 2/3 majority, or is it a separate vote?
My understanding he has to be successfully impeached (2/3 majority) but the subsequent vote to bar him from office bis a simple majority.
Happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood
WRT disbarring Trump from high office, is this voted on only if guilty by 2/3 majority, or is it a separate vote?
Separate vote. Simple majority too. It's a bit confused reading various reports if they can be completely separate processes, or if the disbarring bit is dependant on the two-thirds impeachment vote.
I thought the footage of people relaying his tweets on bullhorns to the riot at The Capitol was decent evidence. Is it too much to hope for a witness today on his frame of mind in the White House, plus digital evidence of Team Trump's awareness/activities on what was being planned on 4chan, Parler, TheDonald etc?
WRT disbarring Trump from high office, is this voted on only if guilty by 2/3 majority, or is it a separate vote?
I believe it's a second vote (requiring a simple majority), but only if the first one (that requires the 2/3rds majority) passes.
Isn't it odd to be spectating on an impeachment trial without the main story being Trump's live twitter attacks on the participants rather than what they are actually saying and doing.
I thought similar maccruiskeen.
Surely the most damning evidence is to be found in Trumps actions and tweets during the siege. In the full knowledge of what was occurring he tweeted out threatening messages in relation to those being attacked and refused to engage the National Guard.
Combined with the fact that it took him hours to instruct the mob to go home I think we can say it all amounts to the fact he was holding congress hostage in order to halt the democratic process.
I'm sure that's how it would run in a real court.
Just watched that video. Just wow.
Typed a whole load of stuff and just deleted it. If the Republicans block impeachment then they are accepting that inciting a mob to overturn an election result upheld by every court in the land is acceptable, and they become active members of that same conspiracy. If they can look their kids in the eye and say that was the right thing to do then God help us all.
We heard a lot about the police that supported Trump , especially regards BLM etc
I wonder how they view the capital riot & trumps part in it?
as for impeachment
Republicans are far too cowardly to vote against Trump
itll be his finacial crimes that undo him
If they can look their kids in the eye and say that was the right thing to do
They can, with ease.
Until there's an impartial Jury, the amount of evidence however incriminating, is unfortunately irrelevant IMO. The Jury had already made up their minds before the trial began.
He's going to walk away from it. Like water off a duck's back.
To the world it looks crazy. To Democrats it looks crazy and helpless.
Us politics is Fubar'd
Like water off a duck’s back.
Not really. Trump is facing a world of legal woes beyond this. It was pretty clear right at the start that he would be acquitted, but this has laid out the evidence against him and made Republican's take a public vote on it. This gives Democrats a lot of dirt to throw at them the next time they're on the ballot. It will energize the Republican base, but offend moderates. Base votes are key to winning primaries, moderate votes are the key to winning elections. If Trump does decide to run in 2024, this, plus all his other legal problems, will be an anchor for him. If he doesn't, his loyalists will reject any candidate who didn't publicly stick by him, so the 2024 Republican candidate starts with a huge problem with moderate voters.
Not really. Trump is facing a world of legal woes beyond this.
How does the Presidential immunity work? When they say 'a sitting president is constitutionally immune from indictment and criminal prosecution', does that mean he can face charges later for things he did whilst president or is he completely immune forever? Or is it another constitutional grey area?
Lots of other stuff he's done though.
My understanding is his immunity is while he is president - the tax and other legal issues have all just been parked.
Maybe if the Dems concluded the summing up by showing that officer leading Pence to safety from the rioters over Trumps call to march and fight, and ask the Senate to vote based on which they felt was upholding the constitution and an oath to serve it....
Lots of other stuff he’s done though.
We've had 4 years of him doing "lots of other stuff". Most of which, if committed by the average person in the street would have resulted in them going to jail.
Not that dissimilar to over here with the lying and corruption. If I owned a public company that was funneling funds to all my mates and telling the same lies that have blatantly and brazenly been told on live TV by politicians, I'd be in prison.
Yep, that's what I was asking. Can he face legal charges now for the last 4 years, or is it all the tax stuff he'll face? Think he can actually, Fulton County have opened an inquiry into the election interference with Raffensperger.
there is the argument the GOP are running scared of Trump taking his ball away if they don't stand by him. I don't think that's a starter given the organisation needed, financing, history of Trump start ups and history of third parties in the US.
When they say ‘a sitting president is constitutionally immune from indictment and criminal prosecution’, does that mean he can face charges later for things he did whilst president or is he completely immune forever? Or is it another constitutional grey area?
It's all a grey area, it's not written into law. The Justice Department have a policy of not charging a sitting president, but it's just a convention. This hasn't really come up in recent history so there aren't any precedents for charging a president after he leaves office. AFAIK, constitutional lawyers don't see any constitutional reason why he can't be charged, but it will inevitably end up in the Supreme Court for a definitive ruling.
Edit. Also, I think that stuff he's done in the course of his presidential duties (the Ukraine extortion thing, for example) are covered by impeachment ("high crimes and misdemeanors"), so unlikely to face criminal charges for that. Being a lousy president isn't a crime, that's resolved through elections. However, I think any low-level crimes like tax evasion that his company did while he was president would not fall under impeachment so those would still be prosecutable. I guess we're going to find out, there'll be a huge queue of ambitious lawyers wanting to make names for themselves as the one that prosecuted a president.
there is the argument the GOP are running scared of Trump taking his ball away if they don’t stand by him.
I thought that the GOP might want him to take his ball away,kill it with a slow puncture,make the Trump brand even more Toxic, then take back most of his followers.
You sense that that is Cruz's game plan.
The Republican Party won unexpectedly in 2016 and threw their lot in with Trump and Trumpism. For all his weaknesses as a human being and a president, Trump has an energised support base that could very easily be turned against the GOP should he decide to form a third party. We've seen the same argument here with the Brexit Party and the Conservatives, the populist movement has usurped traditional centre-right moderates.
If Republican senators do indeed help pass the impeachment, it'll prevent Trump from running for office again but it won't end populist Trumpism, no doubt one of his offspring is waiting in the wings to pick up that support. Likewise, Ted Cruz et al are keen to associate themselves with the loony fringe in order to capitalise on their votes. Make no mistake, the fact that 140,000 former Republicans have left the party in disgust has done nothing to diminish the influence of a few well funded donors who dictate policy.
140,000 former Republicans have left the party in disgust
Keep in mind that about 70 million people voted for Trump, so only about 0.2% of Trump voters left the party.
What I think is a more serious problem for the Republican Party is that the Trumpists are pulling stupid stunts like having state party organizations issue rebukes of people like Liz Cheney for not supporting Trump. It may not show up in the membership numbers, but they are turning the local party organizations into extremist dens of QAnon believers, which will make it hard to recruit the more moderate candidates they need to appeal in swing states. Liz Cheney is a very conservative person, but she is a bleeding heart liberal compared to the Republican base.
Republicans really are between a rock and a hard place. Abandon Trump and lose a heap of far right support, possibly to his (Ivanka's?) new party, not to mention intensification of death threats etc. Stick by him and continue to lose moderate conservative support to the less radical Dems. Biden just needs to stay alive and articulate. The best hope the Republicans have is Biden keeling over and Harris (whisper it; "a woman of colour") seeking election next time round.
The Justice Department have a policy of not charging a sitting president, but it’s just a convention.
Nixon was given a presidential pardon by Ford - which presumably means it was thought possible he could be charged
Watergate seems pretty trivial these days doesn't it 🙂
An important comparison though - it was Nixon's own party that asked him to resign - threatening him with impeachment if he didn't. Republicans were in the minority in the senate at the time time and would have required democrat votes for an impeachment to succeed.
While we debate whether enough republican might support an impeachment the bigger question is why they aren't leading the effort to impeach. Thats how they should be toeing the party line.
To the world it looks crazy. To Democrats it looks crazy and helpless.
Us politics is Fubar’d
Chatting to my SIL in the US about it. I think you have to understand how the US mindset is different to Europeans. They're not so, let's say hamstrung by the thought of fairness, or what's right, only winning. Their normal Legal System reflects this too.
It doesn't really matter how the 'trial' goes or the fact his defence team all arrived in the same clown car doesn't really matter. Few people care. It also doesn't matter if some Democratic Senators think he's innocent of the current charges (if any do).
It's all just a Political battle do be won.
The 50 Republican Senators, know he's a nasty vindictive man, they also know he will likely attempt to at least stand for GOP nomination for President in 2024.
There will be those amongst them who also want to take a run at it in 2024, there will be a lot of moderate Republicans that hated Trump and all he stood for before he was in office and during who'll want him gone and to never return and there will be those who think that Trump being impeached will hurt the party with the right wingers and their changes of re-election in 2024. The Party will no doubt be having discussions behind closed doors too, do they rid themselves of a President who just lost an election, pretty badly and rebuild, or keep a undoubted Political player who may well be standing against a 'Women of Color' in 2024.
Whatever happens, I don't see many of them who'll vote to convict until they've spoken to enough of their peers to ensure it's enough, because you wouldn't want to be the one who voted to convict, and it wasn't enough.
In the immortal words of Omar Little "If you come for the King, you best not miss".
there is the argument the GOP are running scared of Trump taking his ball away if they don’t stand by him. I don’t think that’s a starter given the organisation needed, financing, history of Trump start ups and history of third parties in the US.
Agree that setting up a 3rd party would probably not happen but it would be easy for them to have independents stand in congressional seat elections etc. and for them to campaign specifically against the Republican candidate - that's what the GOP members of congress fear most
Actually quite interested to watch Trump's defence team this evening. They've already set expectation they'll only take a few hours over it. More arguing this is unconstitutional plus a few digs at democrats I assume.
Is there any cross-examination at all? That's what might get difficult for Trump's lot. They don't seem that experienced/prep'd.
This is hilarious.
'Not fair, they manipulated and edited footage'...
now listen to our 20 minutes of manipulated and edited footage.
Trump refused to call off the Capitol Hill rioters
He’s either convicted or he now owns the Republican Party.
Trump can only be pardoned for Federal crimes. There are plenty of state attorneys preparing indictments including South District New York for tax offences to do with Trump Corp. He’s probably going to be too busy fighting those to be a 2024 candidates, but might not stop toxic Barbie, Ivanka.
Trump can only be pardoned for Federal crimes. There are plenty of state attorneys preparing indictments including South District New York for tax offences to do with Trump Corp.
The U.S. President can only pardon him for federal crimes. I think it will depend on the individual state constitutions for the specific details, but the state governor will be able to pardon him for state crimes. Unfortunately for him, he lived in New York, where pretty much everyone is a Democrat.
Trump refused to call off the Capitol Hill rioters
He’s either convicted or he now owns the Republican Party.
So these Republican house members waited until after the impeachment evidence was presented and then go on the record confirming Trump's behaviour while the riot was going on?
They reckon final statements and vote from 10 am their time.
Bernie causing trouble...
https://twitter.com/ReporterCioffi/status/1360349886688989189?s=20
Things are about to get interesting
https://twitter.com/politico/status/1360614699612659720?s=20
https://twitter.com/HerreraBeutler/status/1360419828721401856?s=20
https://twitter.com/SenWhitehouse/status/1360440149163843586?s=20
https://twitter.com/SenWhitehouse/status/1360440160186478594?s=20
Yup. Makes sense. Take time with this, subpoena witnesses, get on with Biden's stuff in the meantime.
Trump must be fuming. I think the nonsense yesterday where Trump's lawyer refused to answer the question about what Trump was up to after his speech plus suggesting Tuberville was lying about the phone call made this inevitable.
I REALLY hope this haunts the GOP for many, many years to come and destroys them in elections.
They might end up wishing to hell they had reigned him in politically when they had the chance.
As for Trump directly, let's hope the many law suits to come hit him hard for years.
My take on this is that the Dems bottled it - chose pushing on with Biden's agenda over using witnesses to highlight Trumps actions and attitude.
Be interesting to see if that damages the Republicans or the Democrats more
🤭😁😄
“I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters,” Trump said.
Nah, he could direct a mob to do his killing whilst smirking in the whitehouse as the Republican Party turns the other way.
Bottled it or done a deal, given they knew what the result would be anyway?
McConnell confused me, thought he'd picked up somebody else's notes by mistake. Says Trump was 100% guilty but voted on the constitutional element. Cake and eat it?
While we debate whether enough republican might support an impeachment the bigger question is why they aren’t leading the effort to impeach.
If they do that they can kiss their political career goodbye.
If they do that they can kiss their political career goodbye.
If they allow the rule of law and democracy to be overturned by Trumps mob, they won't have a political career either.
The impeachment was stolen, we need a recount. Just find me those 11 votes
If they allow the rule of law and democracy to be overturned by Trumps mob, they won’t have a political career either.
That is a matter of interpretation. Most politicians (regardless) will rather not be the fall guy to stick their neck out against their own and leave it for another day to savour their existence. i.e. then collect their pension etc ...
The impeachment was stolen, we need a recount. Just find me those 11 votes
Nothing is stolen etc ... they just don't feel like voting with the Demoncrats.
Nothing is stolen etc … they just don’t feel like voting with the Demoncrats.
Der. Course it wasn’t. Just entertaining to use the language of the Orange Shitgibbon to illustrate how ridiculous it was. Div.
Der. Course it wasn’t. Just entertaining to use the language of the Orange Shitgibbon to illustrate how ridiculous it was. Div.
Was it a sure thing before the verdict? If not then how can it be stolen?
Was it a sure thing before the verdict? If not then how can it be stolen?
You genuinely are irony blind. How do you get through life?
It was always going to be hard to get enough people to vote against their party to get it through so not surprised but that doesn't stop me feeling sad about it.
Wonder what the fallout from it will be though. It does set a dangerous president that encouraging a mob to overthrow an election result is okay, even if the mob themselves get prosecuted.
Presumably this shuts the door on legal options to stop him running for office again in 2024?
You genuinely are irony blind. How do you get through life?
Please don't feed the troll.
Well, the Republicans have made their choice… it’s now Trump, or a Trump backed candidate in 2024. Not a politically astute move, in my opinion. His stock could fall a lot in the next 4 years, and they’ve tied themselves to his mast.
Please don’t feed the troll.
He's not really a troll. More our little gimp. An anti-echo chamber insight into a fuddled mind.
Keep in mind that about 70 million people voted for Trump,
I think you'll find those people voted Republican, probably because they always vote Republican.
Few vote conservative one term, then labour the next, then back to conservative, then maybe a couple of terms voting green etc etc. Trump just happened to be the one running.
Not guilty, who’d have guessed🙄
Me... I ****ing guessed it.
Politics is broken. Let's start an insurrection.