[Closed] Does Nick Griffin have a point? Yes, that Nick Griffin...

they do, but not by choice.

People who stop believing in god don't do it by choice? Wut? Care to expand on that?

So any time someone changes their mind about something, that's not their choice? When I changed my mind about what I had for breakfast, that was a change of mental state that was outside my control? Or is it only changes of mind about religious matters that are outside our control?

No, it's change of beliefs which are outside our control.

People who stop believing in god don't do it by choice? Wut? Care to expand on that?

Well, their beliefs change. this is not a choice, it's based on a changing different interpretation of the world around them.

woah, there really is a God Gene!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

Well, their beliefs change. this is not a choice, it's based on a changing different interpretation of the world around them.

So how we interpret the world around us is not a conscious decision? How do you explain, well, all experimental science then?

Or are you saying that people who believe something irrational (religion) can make an irrational decision to stop being religious?

Having googled 'The Christian Institute' after reading that this particular organisation had supported the B&B owner in her case..

The Christian Institute exists for “the furtherance and promotion of the Christian religion in the United Kingdom” and “the advancement of education”.

The Christian Institute is a nondenominational Christian charity committed to upholding the truths of the Bible. We are supported by individuals and churches throughout the UK.

We believe that the Bible is the supreme authority for all of life and we hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. We are committed to upholding the sanctity of life from conception"

So, basically they believe their religion has a higher authority than the UK legal system and therefore they are justified in ignoring the laws they don't agree with.

The verdict must have come as a bit of a shock then 😆

So how we interpret the world around us is not a conscious decision? How do you explain, well, all experimental science then?

I'm not sure why that is a contradiction. You believe the results of experimental science, because of the way you construct knowledge. There is no 'choice' involved. Take any belief you have, be it in social equality, racial equality, political view and see if you can choose to believe the opposite of your current belief. I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

Or are you saying that people who believe something irrational (religion) can make an irrational decision to stop being religious?

No

The thing that I would agree with Nick is that if people want to be bigoted as part of their business, then let them be bigoted, i would suggest that they are then required to advertise their bigotry, and let the market determine if their business succeeds or fails.

If for example we advertised that we didnt want female customers we would only get customers who followed our beliefs, we would probably go out of business, but people would know of our views.

So really there's no point in arguing with anyone, as you'll never change their mind? 🙂

That is a rather private matter for me

project - Member
Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

If you refuse, perhaps now is the time to ask your wife or girlfreind how she feels about a lesbian nurse or Gp giving her a cervical smear test, women just see it as part of a medical investigation.

How would you know the sexual orientation of any of these people?

There is no 'choice' involved. Take any belief you have, be it in social equality, racial equality, political view and see if you can choose to believe the opposite of your current belief. I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

So what you're saying is that when you "choose" to believe something, you actually haven't had a choice at all, you just think you have? Sorry, just trying to clear up what you're saying...?

I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

Back to the scale.
I presume there's scales for all sorts of things, theres not many facets of being human that are binary not even gender, i'm thinking OCDishness and similar. is there a threshold level where you are labelled, if there is does it really matter, or even help to be labelled? surely it's how you decide for yourself that matters?

project - Member

Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

Yes, of course. And you're getting a genuine WTF for this one.

For the former two... They're professionals, as long as they're doing their job properly then what is the problem? One of the team who did my surgery was gay and one of them was a woman and they all got a good look at my oh so buff bod (inside and out!) I don't think they were either put off or massively aroused tbh. But you never know, that was quite a strong anaesthetic.

For the latter... If you've got changed in communal changing any number of times, then most likely you've done so in the company of a gay man. Probably best work out some way to deal with that.

would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

I'm trying to figure out what you're worried about here...
- you think gay is contagious and you might catch it
- that the gay person might find you irresistible
- that you'll be "tempted" and find them irresistible
???

I'm really hoping project was playing devil's advocate with that question. Otherwise I'm beginning to understand why his mate's missus doesn't like him.

I've lost track of this thread a bit.. So has Nick Griffin come out or not then..?

Well, you know what they say about those who doth protest too much.

HoratioHufnagel - Member

- you think gay is contagious and you might catch it

True- but don't worry, it's only sexually transmitted.

[i]After starting out defending the gay rights, you end with a little joke about cocksucking gays and some stereotypical generalisation about 'gaydar'. Well, thanks for your support.[/i]

I have no idea what position you are taking on being gay, tbh, and have no desire to support it from what I've read.

You seem to imply it's somethign people believe they are in the same way that people believe they are Chirstians.

I fundamentally disagree with that - it's not about believing somethign it's about being it.

my 'joke' was when you suggested that people might be a 'bit' gay and I made a reference to the whole Bill Cinton - I didn't smoke dope because I didn;t inhale thing.

People can't be a 'a bit' gay - either you fancy people who are the same gender as you, or you don't.

And you certainly can't be 'cured' of it the way a lot of Chirstian groups seem to want to believe.

project - Member

Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

Yet another, genuine, WTF from me.
Why would you have a problem about this?

I would imagine you must have openly gay friends, colleagues or relatives?
What is it about them that would make you have a problem about being medically examined by a health professional who happened to be gay?

Seriously, that post sounds like it's been beamed in directly from a 1960's Daily Mail letters page.

Apparently, gays are all rampant and would instantly be attracted to project should they have the opportunity to caress his wonderful manhood. I mean, come on, that's what it would be...a big gay caress, not a medical examination. It's not like gays, being so rampant, would ever be able to separate their professional from their personal and sexual lives. project, being so full of manliness, would completely disarm a rampant gay who was examining his penis.

You'd think that a religion who's fundamental belief was that a God can artificially inseminate a woman to create their prophet would be a bit more liberal when it came to peoples sexual activities?

project, being so full of manliness, would completely disarm a rampant gay who was examining his penis.

They've got guns now?

So armed, gay health professionals are forcing their way into Christian B & B's, just to examine Nick Griffin's penis?

Hell. In a handcart.

This thread has gone seriously wierd.

It's just so full of wrong that I'm bowing out.

final thought;

Gay people are just like everyone else, they just fancy people who are the same gender as them. The rest of their personal and professional lives are no different to anyone elses.

People can't be a 'a bit' gay - either you fancy people who are the same gender as you, or you don't.

Well, yes, they can. You can have a primary and a secondary choice; so you could primarily fancy girls but occasionally fancy boys.

And that's an oversimplification. People are complex beasts.

*wish I hadn;t started*

isn;t that being bisexual?

being gay means you *only* fancy men. Well, to me.

One more WTF for project here. Why would I care if my doctor is gay or straight, male or female? My main requirement is that they make me better, not ask me out!

Also...

Also noticed there are not many openly gay cyclists willing to comment on the above posts, tells you a lot about discrimination in the cycling fraternity.

There are several openly gay people on this forum and at least one transsexual. I've never seen anyone make an issue about it on here, in fact the vast majority seem quite supportive when it comes up, so I'm not sure what point about the "cycling fraternity" you are making?

Especially because which gender you prefer has very little to do with bicycles.

Not that much else on here has anything to do with bicycles 🙂

Thing is for all those who dont discriminate and say being gay is ok and perfectly normal,just ask yourselves, would you let a gay Dr or male nurse examine your genitals,at the local surgery, or give you a full body shave, prior to an operation in hospital,or getting changed in front of a load of gay men in a changing room at a sports centre etc.

Either you are "Joking"

Or you appear to be quite homophobic 😐

Bloody hell, everyone here seems utterly determined to make such a big deal about the gay aspect of this, ignoring the original fact of the case, which has been pointed out by a couple of people, and studiously ignored by everyone else;
[b]THE B&B OWNERS TURNED AWAY ANY COUPLE WHO WEREN'T MARRIED, AS THAT WENT AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS[/b]
That an [b]unmarried[/b] gay couple then turned up, having read that [b]unmarried couples weren't allowed[/b], seems to be deliberately provocative. The only possible way in which it could be clearly proven that the B&B owners were homophobic would be if a married gay couple tried to book and were turned away.
Sheesh!

THE B&B OWNERS TURNED AWAY ANY COUPLE WHO WEREN'T MARRIED, AS THAT WENT AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS

How long has the church been recognising same-sex marriage, then?

So, turned away for not being married, nothing to do with being gay ...

well said (well typed) countzero.

..except that they never asked whether the couple in question were in a civil partnership.

To be fair, that wouldn't count as "married" anyway (in the eyes of the church.)

Bloody hell, everyone here seems utterly determined to make such a big deal about the gay aspect of this, ignoring the original fact of the case, which has been pointed out by a couple of people, and studiously ignored by everyone else;
THE B&B OWNERS TURNED AWAY ANY COUPLE WHO WEREN'T MARRIED, AS THAT WENT AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS

Is that so? this report from The Telegraph:

Giving evidence to the court previously, Mrs Wilkinson claimed she had been acting in accordance with her religion, and her belief that homosexual relations - as opposed to orientation - are "sinful".

She insisted she had also turned away several unmarried heterosexual couples who appeared to want the room during the day for sex.

"As a Christian I have tried to live my life and carry out my work in accordance with my deeply held Christian beliefs and to permit same sex couples to share a double room in my home would be an act against my core religious beliefs and conscience," she told the court.

-- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9617792/Gay-couple-turned-away-from-BandB-win-discrimination-case.html

So no. That's nonsense.

I struggle with long sentences

my only conclusion from skim reading most this is that project is homophobic. He needs some sense dryboned into him.

So was the B&B owner.

Well, their beliefs change. this is not a choice, it's based on a changing different interpretation of the world around them.

Firstly, I think you misunderstand the brain a bit. Many opinions can be shown to be governed at the conscious level, some discriminatory behavior etc has been shown to operate sub-consciously though. The thing about the brain is it's plastic, once you choose to think about your views more your brain is going to think about the world around it in a different way and interpret it differently. By taking the conscious decision to think about a subject, before you have changed your opinion.... will I believe.... alter the brains receptiveness to a new belief system. Some peoples brains have a natural tendency to question their own belief system more, I think this is what psychologists term openness? No? It's late and I can't remember.

Secondly I think you are a determinist? Your whole belief system (as that's what determinism currently is, a belief) rests on whether quantum mechanics a) operates at the neuronal level b) has any underlying logic we have not seen that governs it.

political view and see if you can choose to believe the opposite of your current belief. I reckon you can espouse the views of the other side, but deep within you, your belief will not have changed.

I can, as others here may have noticed, I'm a self-contradictory nihilist. I'll argue against global warming one day, for it the next, against socialism another, for it the next. Etc etc ad nauseum.

If I am fool, it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom. - Lord Byron

[url= http://www.****/news/article-2220120/White-people-likely-gay-Huge-study-reveals-highest-proportion-homosexual-people-African-American-community.html ]Have we done this yet?[/url]

Apparently they're more likely to be nonces or serial killers though Captainflashheart.

😀

I suspect we develop irrational prejudices quite naturally. They come as a mental shortcuts. I reckon I have an Innate racism that arises from the racism of my parents. But intellectually I know racism to be destructive and unfair so I actively fight that urge at every turn.

I don't thInk sexual preferences are less complex that food preferences. Humans are complex.

It's taken centuries to attain our current realisation that we benefit from racial social sexual and religious tolerance. Let's not blow it by entertaining the opinions of Griffin.

I suspect we develop irrational prejudices quite naturally. They come as a mental shortcuts. I reckon I have an Innate racism that arises from the racism of my parents. But intellectually I know racism to be destructive and unfair so I actively fight that urge at every turn.

Win - nice post Buzz.

Your subconscious and conscious self are always doing battle. If they don't and the unconscious wins, men can often become opportunistic rapists etc.