Topic starter
I’ve just read the below story about a young motorcyclist killed in a hit and run incident by the wife of a US ‘diplomat’ (in quotes as given the location spy might be s better word?).
A tragedy for his family, but also it seems to me an utter abuse of power and privilege by the suspected killer and the US government.
I’m not sure why I’m so affected by this particular story given the abundance of tragic and unfair loss of life around the world, but there we go. His death and the circumstances around it have saddened me. I must remember not to look at the news on mornings when I’m up early.
Posted : 05/10/2019 7:03 am
USAF Upper Heyford was on my commute for years. The road between the base and the accommodation was a nightmare with drivers pulling out without looking right and driving on the wrong side. When a new load of airmen arrived word soon went out around the area to be careful.
Very sad story and like you say a bit of a misuse of diplomatic immunity.
Posted : 05/10/2019 7:31 am
That’s a bit shit. If I understand correctly, she should, in theory, be liable for prosecution under US jurisdiction. In practice, it probably won’t happen.
Posted : 05/10/2019 12:50 pm
I thought diplomatic immunity only applied to relatively minor offences, i.e. it stops you being jailed for speeding tickets, non payment of taxes etc?
Posted : 05/10/2019 1:22 pm
I thought diplomatic immunity only applied to relatively minor offences,
Nope.
Posted : 05/10/2019 1:31 pm
It stinks.
As for Andrea Leadsom talking about seeking justice or closure - yeah, right.
I can't see her doing anything.
Posted : 05/10/2019 1:37 pm
It’s a tragic situation, but not at all unprecedented. Justice has been served, international not UK justice. Removal of the persons is about the most serious intervention available.
For serious crimes, a country can remove diplomatic immunity and the individual will be subject to local prosecution. There’s an example in the US of an ambassador who caused a fatal accident under the influence of alcohol in Washington DC. There is also a similar case of a motorcyclist being killed in Germany with the same diplomatic outcome.
Personally, I put this down to tragic accident due to inattention. I’m sure there will have been lots of discussions between authorities. I also imagine that living with the knowledge that you killed someone under such circumstance will be very hard. My great uncle killed a motorcyclist who pulled out of a junction and he could not stop in time. He had a mental breakdown over it.
Civil proceedings are still possible.
Posted : 05/10/2019 1:38 pm
From the news reports she agreed not to leave the country and then did. thats disgraceful
Posted : 05/10/2019 4:09 pm
Some children were killed on a pedestrain crossing in France by a diplomat a while back. Two among many killed on pedestrian crossings but in that case it was by a diplomat and made the news. Lots of tragedies, not all newsworthy.
Posted : 05/10/2019 4:21 pm
It's very shabby behaviour to claim diplomatic immunity in these circumstances but if the US Ambassador and State Department support it there's nothing that can be done.
Posted : 05/10/2019 4:23 pm
If she or the husband are intelligence service rather than "genuine" diplomats as some people are inferring in reports, I can see there might be a genuine reason to keep her away from public judicial proceedings.
There is too much abuse of diplomatic immunity, but I suspect we are as bad as other nations.
Posted : 05/10/2019 4:27 pm
I’m sure our ‘special relationship’ will mean this gets sorted.
Posted : 05/10/2019 4:32 pm
Poor form.
Maybe a nocturnal visit at their US address from a "secret service" suggesting she return to the UK to face the legal system or alternatively........
Posted : 05/10/2019 5:48 pm
Dominic Raab is on the case.
Doubt that's reassuring to the family
Posted : 05/10/2019 5:54 pm
I asked my sister about this when she was working in the British embassy in Rome - what would happen if she killed someone, could she get away with it? Her answer was that the UK government would almost certainly hand her straight over to the Italian authorities, but it was up to the UK government to decide to do so.
With the US government I suspect it gets a bit more complicated: the ambassadors are political appointments, not career civil servants. Which means they almost by definition have friends in high places.
Posted : 05/10/2019 6:01 pm
US embassy has been ripping the p out of the congestion charge in London for years, owe about £11 m , don't know why anyone is surprised they aren't playing ball on this especially with the current US government
Posted : 05/10/2019 6:10 pm
Big difference between not paying parking tickets and killing someone
misuse of diplomatic immunity.
It isn't. I haven't seen that claimed anywhere. It was the wife of a 'diplomat' involved and would not get DI anyway. Someone has made an assumption, it seems
It's a suspect fleeing the country.
Posted : 05/10/2019 6:46 pm
The point being the mindset of a special relationship between the uk and us is illusory, the US will always do what suits them best, be that not paying millions in congestion charge (which isn't a parking ticket so not under dip immunity ) or one of theirs killing someone.
As the police have said they were "exploring all opportunities through diplomatic channels” to ensure the investigation continued, this would suggest that immunity was claimed at an early stage hence the suspect not being arrested at the time of the killing.
The law on spouses;
Criminal immunity and inviolability in the UK is conferred on all qualifying dependent household members of Diplomatic Agents and Administrative and Technical Staff of foreign diplomatic missions and Consular Officers and Consular Employees at London based foreign consular missions. To qualify for this immunity and inviolability, the dependent must be notified to, and accepted by, the FCO. The dependents of Diplomatic Agents and Consular Officers cannot be nationals of the UK; and the dependents of Administrative and Technical Staff and Consular Employees cannot be nationals of the UK or hold permanent UK residency.
Posted : 05/10/2019 7:03 pm
It isn’t. I haven’t seen that claimed anywhere. It was the wife of a ‘diplomat’ involved and would not get DI anyway. Someone has made an assumption, it seems
It’s a suspect fleeing the country.
Spooks and diplomats often keep it in the family, I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that she was involved in either service.
I believe family members of diplomats are protected though as well, so they cannot be as easily used as bargaining chips by corrupt states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#In_the_United_States
Diplomats - "same as sponsor" for family members.
Posted : 05/10/2019 7:05 pm
If she or the husband are intelligence service rather than “genuine” diplomats as some people are inferring in reports, I can see there might be a genuine reason to keep her away from public judicial proceedings.
I don’t, not in the slightest. You can not walk away from killing someone no matter who or what you are.
Intelligence my arse, that has nothing at all to do with anything. It’s a simple case of one person killing another... we aren’t at War, it not in the battle or engagement of War... even then some forces people are facing similar accusations... and some from the Irish Conflict are due to face such.
Bring her back, face the charges lain against the accused.
Simple.
Posted : 05/10/2019 7:10 pm
I don’t, not in the slightest. You can not walk away from killing someone no matter who or what you are.
Unfortunately you can, if you're a diplomat and your government is prepared to back you up. (And it's not 100% unreasonable that a car accident should be covered: imagine the Chinese or Cuban government accusing you of having run someone over, do you think it's beyond their means to fake an accident and stitch you up?)
Posted : 05/10/2019 7:45 pm
Big difference between not paying parking tickets and killing someone
Yup, big difference indeed; one is £11m, the other £1.8m...
Posted : 05/10/2019 8:45 pm
You can not walk away from killing someone no matter who or what you are.
Posted : 05/10/2019 9:00 pm
With regards to severity, particularly Yvonne Fletcher, the immunity was maintained by the Libyan government for such a serious offence withe the consequence that the UK severed political relations completely.
As I said, driving offences are relatively common. This is a serious accident but it would appear that it May not have been malicious. Drink driving would have been serious enough for the US to remove immunity based on past precedent (in the US). The same thing happened in Germany.
Posted : 05/10/2019 9:34 pm
Sadly the punishment would probably have been quite light.
Posted : 06/10/2019 2:46 pm
The Guardian is reporting that Mrs Sacoolas did not have diplomatic immunity. I imagine there are some worried people at Northamptonshire Police, not that it would have made any difference.
Posted : 08/10/2019 5:27 pm
Sadly the punishment would probably have been quite light.
No, he wasn’t on a bike
Posted : 08/10/2019 6:37 pm
The US will never give up a US citizen, so the case is dead.
Posted : 08/10/2019 9:09 pm
Raab lives up my low expectations here.
https://news.sky.com/story/parents-of-teen-killed-outside-us-spy-base-angry-after-dominic-raab-meeting-11831512
Posted : 09/10/2019 7:13 pm
I don't understand why there's still on-going confusion if she was covered by diplomatic immunity, the evidence now seems to be she wasn't but most of the media and politicians just seem to have accepted as fact she was?
Posted : 10/10/2019 8:05 am
As I understand it, with a few exceptions it's up to the sending state to decide who is and is not a diplomat. The US has said that her husband is.
The UK's list is only relevant to the extent that it might be evidence that the US has retrospectively granted status, or that it's being a bit lax about informing the UK of spies.
Posted : 10/10/2019 8:34 am
The US has said that her husband is
her husband isn't - the list is here (top link) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/foreign-embassies-in-the-uk
Craig Murray is a tinfoil hat, but this is quite interesting https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/10/jonathan-sacoolas-is-not-and-has-never-been-a-diplomat/
Edit - Actually, there's a 1994 Mutual Legal Assistance treaty that stops assistance if it impinges on security, and as it's at Croughton, that probably does.
Posted : 10/10/2019 8:44 am
The problem with Craig's argument is that it is the United States who get to decide what rank their employees are (ambassador and the military ataches aside) and not some random blogger on the Internet. The President of the United States has said "the person that was driving the automobile has diplomatic immunity" (although he was careful not to specify whether she had it at the time of the collision).
Posted : 10/10/2019 9:02 am
The problem with Craig’s argument is that it is the United States who get to decide what rank their employees
I thought the host country had to approve it though. Hence why Assange couldnt be spirited out of the country when he was still in favour since the UK would have refused it
Posted : 10/10/2019 9:06 am
Out of curiosity does anyone have a reasonable idea what the ruling of the law would be in this accident? Assuming she just pulled out of the airbase on the wrong side of the road and hit him as a result. No other foul play at work ie not on mobile, under influence etc and she is also genuinely distressed and remorseful about the incident.
Would it involve jail time or would it be marked as a tragic accident with some sort of implication for her driving licence? Not trying to create an excuse for the diplomatic immunity thing which seems a farce, just curious.
Posted : 10/10/2019 10:57 am
Out of curiosity does anyone have a reasonable idea what the ruling of the law would be in this accident? Assuming she just pulled out of the airbase on the wrong side of the road and hit him as a result. No other foul play at work ie not on mobile, under influence etc and she is also genuinely distressed and remorseful about the incident.
Would it involve jail time or would it be marked as a tragic accident with some sort of implication for her driving licence? Not trying to create an excuse for the diplomatic immunity thing which seems a farce, just curious.
I would *guess* death by careless which is a prison sentence 4 years max and would almost certainly be suspended in this case. (From memory.)
I have a lot of sympathy with her for the initial incident, I've started on the wrong side when abroad 3 times, lots of people have. We've just been lucky there wasn't nobody to hit. She wasn't.
Posted : 10/10/2019 11:11 am
I would concur with death by careless driving being the appropriate offence.
Posted : 10/10/2019 11:28 am
I have a lot of sympathy with her for the initial incident, I’ve started on the wrong side when abroad 3 times, lots of people have.
Yup. Usually in the second week of a holiday when I'm starting to feel relaxed and confident.
Posted : 10/10/2019 12:14 pm
Maximum sentence is 5 years, which brings anyone helping her leave the country in the frame for assisting an offender.
Posted : 10/10/2019 12:23 pm
Whoops. Looks like there was never the slightest intention of getting her back over here. What a surprise....
Posted : 10/10/2019 12:41 pm
of course not, same as the US pilot in Italy who severed the cable car cable causing multiple deaths....
Posted : 10/10/2019 12:48 pm
Cavalese was a very different case. Military pilots, on duty (albeit disobeying orders) and they were tried in a US court and somewhat mysteriously acquited.
The Weregild might end up being similar.
Posted : 10/10/2019 1:43 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if Trump and Boris to plan a public spat, expelling embassy staff etc So they can look strong to the own nations and base supporters. The time is just right for a bit of extra faux patriotism and this is manna from heaven for this pair of tossers.
Posted : 10/10/2019 1:55 pm
Perhaps the family might start a crowd funding campaign to rent some billboards in her home town, I'll put something in if they do. I fully understand that she may simply have made a mistake and if so I don't think a jail term would serve any use but that family deserve the right to hear her explanation of what happened to their son in a court of law.
Posted : 10/10/2019 2:04 pm
So what's to stop a "diplomat" being sent to a country to knock someone off. Accidentally.
Seems quite a grey area.
Posted : 10/10/2019 5:11 pm
Seems now Trump is a police officer stating it was an accident. Laughing it off as it could happen to anyone type fashion driving in another country on wrong side of the road.
If this is the case then she shouldn’t have been driving in UK if she couldn’t feel competent enough to drive on the correct side of road!
I seriously hope karma exists as it’s about bloody time for that coont driver and trump.
Posted : 10/10/2019 8:44 pm