[Closed] Ding doing: The toff's career is dead

[quote=ninfan ]

The photo in question provides an example of what you might expect to see in typical UKIP territory.

Hence http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ukip-the-by-elections-and-labour - and they're not actually so safe.

[quote=Junkyard ]Hey FLASHY want to comment on UKIP giving your lot another kicking?

Don't you think it more interesting that (unlike the Tories) Labour got less than half as many votes as at the GE? 😈

As I see it a flag isn't in itself a racist symbol, it is of course a national one, there is of course nothing wrong with a bit of national pride however "fervent nationalism" is often where racists and bigots retreat when they start feeling beleaguered by what they perceive as an overwhelming tide of lefty political correctness, and/or DM rants over immigration convince them marauding Islamic hordes are about to descend on the pub and force Sharia law in them...

It's the [i]"I'm not a racist, I'm just proud to be English"[/i] thing...

The thing is most of us, including those who criticized Emily Thornberry, knew from personal experiences precisely what that image was alluding to, it was a key image that 99% of the UK would recognise and understand the subtext without a caption TBH... Racists do have an affinity for flag waving nationalism...

This whole thing is actually a gift to the Tories, they got a shoeing from another turncoat saving his seat, you'd have thought the story would be about their failure to hold a seat in a by-election and some of their support ebbing away to UKIP in the run up to a national election, but one thoughtless tweet from a Labour MP with a name that just sounds a bit too posh, and Boom! Dave and his mates are saved from some of the trickier questions while Nige now gets some ammunition to target labour supporters with, she most definitely should have handed in her shadow ministerial role, not because she was [i]"Wrong"[/i] exactly, but because she's basically given the competition some significant help, MP's shouldn't be allowed twitter or FB accounts, for the good of their own careers...

Ultimately the saddest thing in all of this is that a large number of us now, subconsciously or not, make that association between display of our national flag(s) and Racism (excepting perhaps major national sporting events), We can thank the EDL and other similar organisations for that, there's even a bit of a connotation for the Union flag in certain contexts IMO ([url= http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/12-things-britain-first.html ]Britain first[/url] anyone?)...

The far right definitely try to ride the Nationalism / Jingoism bandwagon and do so pretty successfully at the minute... Joint the dots and tell me I'm wrong...

Tweeting something like that is political suicide!

What is so wrong with going look this is the type of voter UKIP appeal to ?
Lets stay on message eh and not discuss the issues and present some sort of media friendly bland homogenised non controversial PR speak BS or else the media will be all over us. The public get what we deserve from politicians bland PR savvy focus group led nonentities never saying what they or we think lest it upset the media bosses and causes a controversy. That is the real tragedy here

At least have MPS w, on all sides, who say what they really think and mean what they say rather than what we get today from them all. At least with UKIP you know what they stand for and they mean what they say

[quote=bencooper ]I'm not sure what can be done to repatriate the English flag

One thing which was great about the Commonwealth games - it was reclaimed for just a little while. Unfortunately that hasn't really lasted, though to be fair I still associate the England flag more with football supporters than racists (not a footy fan, so not really my thing - can't remember the last time I watched any part of an England game, or indeed any other game - but that is at least OK).

There was campaign sometime ago to take back the English flag as it has become associated with racism in a way that the Saltire is not for example. It's clear this daft politician was trying to imply that the Rochester election was based on racism purely because there was an English flag flying and that's why she had to resign.

Co-incidently here is what the Labour campaign manager has had to say

[i]Douglas Alexander, Labour's election strategist, says "angry" Ed Miliband did not "hold back" from berating Emily Thornberry over her white van gaffe.
More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on, and says voters feel "angry and alienated" and they must be shown deep "respect".
This is something Ukip have been saying for months - to their advantage.
"Political parties cannot take any community, any voter or any class for granted," he says. "Anybody who wants to stand for election next May has to start with a fundamental and deep respect for the voters, whom we are asking for support. In that sense, the idea you can rely on any nation, region class or community has just gone."[/i]

So who deserved to resign

Mitchell?
Thornburry?
Both?
Neither?

She could have said, 'look at this, I'm going round there right now to talk some sense in to them' but she didn't she said 'ha-ha, scumbags' (she didn't but you get my drift). I think that's the problem. It's not OK to be derisory to the public when you're an MP, if you don't agree with them you make the argument. That's why she's gone.

More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on

They did have, in Scotland. They've screwed that up.

[quote=cookeaa ]there is of course nothing wrong with a bit of national pride

The belief that your country is superior to other countries because you were born in it?

What is so wrong with going look this is the type of voter UKIP appeal to ?

Because, as it happens, he didn't even know there was an election going on. She didn't know which way he was voting - could have been a labour voter for all she knew.

Put it another way, if my lad hung an England flag outside of his bedroom window on the week of an international match, and a politician tweeted a picture with the implication that we were a pile of racists and this was what they were up against, I might be a bit miffed.

The appearance of sneering and the lack of judgement is the issue.

Thornberry's house this morning 🙂

[img] ?w=480&h=360[/img]

Thornberry's house this morning

Where's the white van?

😀

then you are as much a part of the westminster media fuelled cartel as she and ed are

Mate - much as I love you, and am in awe of your long flowing Samson-esque locks, you don't half talk some nonsense at times.

If she hasn't got the political nouse to fathom how that tweet would have been perceived - Ha, ha! look at these Clampets with their England flags and their shitty van - then she's utterly clueless. She just gift wrapped the Tory presses headlines for them, and gave the Tory's, and UKIP, an open goal to accuse the labour party of being a bunch of aloof, and distant Islington liberal snobs (which they clearly are!)

****-wittery of the very highest order. Its like an episode of the Thick of It. You can imagine his reaction...

[img] [/img]

The parties are now so indistinguishable from each other, the 'staff' (with a few notable exceptions) are interchangeable.

[quote=bencooper ]

More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on

Which is kind of the point (snipped deliberately as the rest of your comment is irrelevant to the point, and in a sense inaccurate). Respect for somebody who's prepared to acknowledge the existence of the elephant.

More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on, and says voters feel "angry and alienated" and they must be shown deep "respect".
This is something Ukip have been saying for months - to their advantage.
"Political parties cannot take any community, any voter or any class for granted," he says. "Anybody who wants to stand for election next May has to start with a fundamental and deep respect for the voters, whom we are asking for support. In that sense, the idea you can rely on any nation, region class or community has just gone."

Good.

Its about time MPs realised they are public servants and are there to represent the views of their constituents.

....in recent years you could be forgiven for thinking it was the other way round, that an MP was some kind of higher functioning being who existed purely to lord it over the electorate and tell us what to think.

If an MP wants to stand based on his/her personal views then fair enough....but don't cry about it when those views don't match those of the public and the MP or their party gets a kicking.

....surely an MP doing their job properly goes out into their community and canvasses the opinions and views of the constituents and then returns to Westminster to represent those views?...if said MP doesn't like the views of the public they are supposed to represent then they can resign and find another job, they wont be missed.

Of course the great lie is revealed above, the real crime of Thornberry and the Labour Party is that they are trying to ride two ponies in the same race.

In her video she's spouting exactly the Labour Party line, the 'it's not racist to be concerned about immigration' 'tough and fair about immigration' 'Labour will make immigrants wait two years for benefits' and 'we admit we got it wrong on immigration'

While at the same time looking down their noses in disgust and mocking [b]exactly[/b] the people they have written those policies to appeal to.

Pretty much nailed it there Ninfan. Which is another illustration of whats wrong with politicians. They spout all this, and its just patronising twoddle, because its fairly obvious they don't mean a bloody word of it! And if they did get elected on this particular platform, have absolutely no intention of actually doing anything at all about it. Once elected, it'll be quietly dropped, along with everything else they made vague noises about, but no solid commitments, to make way for self-interested business-as-usual

So, in the view of the STW-ers was the real issue the flag of St George or the fact that there was a white van parked outside ?

FWIW my view is it was the van, had it just been a photo of the house she might have gotten away with it.

@JY I don't understand why you are trying to pigeon hole @binners as a being as bad as the "westminster elite" when he is pointing out the obvious, that the tweet was political suicide especially coming from a shadow minister who you would imagine has had numerous training sessions and advice in social media use.

the ultimate irony was that white van man wasnt aware of the election and like half the electorate there he wasnt going to bother voting anyway

thornberrys tweet will haunt labour now all the way to the election
while defecting torys(voters and mps) will keep cameron awake at night

its great to see such opposition to our corrupt and depressing political sysytem, if only farige and ukip wasnt such a great steaming pile of shit*

*imho 😉

Binners, yep, was just the same with Gordon of course, 'British jobs for British workers' in public, 'just a sort of bigoted woman who said she used to vote Labour' in private!

thornburys tweet will haunt labour now all the way to the election
while defecting torys(voters and mps) will keep cameron awake at night

Ninfan - a good article in the Guardian today by John Harris, with exactly the point you've just made

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/21/blame-labour-leaks-votes-greens-ed-miliband ]Labour believes it can speak to two supposedly very different separate audiences without either of them actually noticing.[/url]

This article was linked from an earlier thread. Interesting comparing the polling from 6 weeks ago to the actual result - which party lost significant share 6 months out from a GE?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/07/labour-defeatism-rochester-byelection

I would just like to say that as a proud English man and (very) anti-racist, i am offended by the fact that people would hold me in the same regard as those who degrade our flag with racism.

I'm not sure who offends me more though, those who tar me with the same brush or those that bring the down with their extreme views. It all seem pretty bigoted to me!

I bet there's no end of racist Scots out there but if you saw one waving a flag you wouldn't think, "oh there's a racist Scotsman", you'd just think "oh there's a Scotsman".

[b]I do not fly a flag over my house or hang one out of the window.[/b]

So why would anyone imply that you might be racist? I don't get this post.

I actually have a bit of sympathy for Thornberry on this, and it's not often I'll defend a labour politician. Since when has the racist reactionary white working class been the labour party base? As ninfan says, the problem is they're trying to ride two horses, on one side the idiots like this white van man, and on the other the naturally left leaning multicultural educated metropolitan masses. Personally I think the labour party should be targeting the latter and leave the bigots to UKIP, but that would result in inevitable defeat. Which leads me to my main criticism of the labour party in that it is now simply a vehicle for career politicians to achieve power, rather than a campaigning organisation fighting the corner of normal working (and non-working) people.

I bet there's no end of racist Scots out there but if you saw one waving a flag you wouldn't think, "oh there's a racist Scotsman", you'd just think "oh there's a Scotsman".

Depends if they're waving the Scottish flag or the Union flag.

Spot on Ninfan.

While at the same time looking down their noses in disgust and mocking exactly the people they have written those policies to appeal to.

Don't think that's a uniquely labour party problem

@ben, that was my point. If you see a Saltire you associate that with a nationalistic Scot. A nationalist Englishman with the flag of St George is a racist !

I also agree with Dazh… and disagree with those saying that politicians should just do/say whatever they think the electorate want. They should stand up for what they believe in, and try and lead public sentiment… not leave it to the media to make all the running when it comes to setting public policy and attitudes.

This sums it up ...

[i]The BBC's Nick Robinson describes Labour as like a by-stander watching David Cameron drive towards a wall at 100 mph, only to leap in front of the car at the last minute.[/i]

@ben, that was my point. If you see a Saltire you associate that with a nationalistic Scot. A nationalist Englishman with the flag of St George is a racist !

Yes, and it's sad that that's the case, but I don't know how you can solve it. But I meant Scots with Union flags - there's too many Orange Order and other associations.

the naturally left leaning multicultural educated metropolitan masses

Since when have these types who I assume are also the middle classes become the Masses ?

Since when have white working classes become racist reactionaries ?

Kelvin - Did you see Ken Clarke on QT last night? His performance showed exactly what political pygmies we've got nowadays.

He has principles that are completely out of kilter with the party he represents. He's fanatically pro-EU, and absolutely refuses to take on UKIP. Instead he states the bleeding obvious. That pulling out of Europe would be financial suicide, and the Tory Party is on a hiding to nothing trying to out-UKIP UKIP. As is labour. Which is even less believable on the subject.

I hate to praise a tory for standing up and having the courage of his convictions, but by the standards of the present party, he isn't really a Tory. Which shows in the way he's been sidelined for having the audacity to actually talk some sense! Which pretty much no-one else is doing!

Yup - some of Ken Clarke's views are pretty odious (well, he's still a Tory) but on Europe he is spot on.

I actually have a bit of sympathy for Thornberry on this, and it's not often I'll defend a labour politician. Since when has the racist reactionary white working class been the labour party base?

I don't. For a start, regardless of what we may think of the flag (or white vans) it's not acceptable to assume that someone is racist or reactionary based on their house or trade. That kind of prejudice is what underpins racism itself and plenty of other nasty 'isms', and politicians should not be indulging in it.

Second, if she genuinely didn't understand the potential to cause offence by tweeting a picture like that in such a loaded, leaning kind of a way she has no business as a front bench politician and clearly needs to get out more. It's a bit trite to bang on about the out-of-touch labour metropolitan elite but it would probably be apposite here.

Anyway, the traditional Labour party base is the working class as a whole. Not 'some of the working class'; or 'the nice bits of the working class', but workers in general. At the beginning of the movement, half the working class were strongly against women coming in and 'taking our jobs' and getting all uppity with their unreasonable demands for the vote and fair wages. It was never plain sailing. There has always been a large section of the working class that is not liberal and progressive but that Labour represented anyway because it was about universal rights and conditions for all.

Thornberry's tweet simply demonstrates how far Labour has drifted from those original moorings -

Which leads me to my main criticism of the labour party in that it is now simply a vehicle for career politicians to achieve power, rather than a campaigning organisation fighting the corner of normal working (and non-working) people.

you're spot on with that.

ninfan - Member

Of course the great lie is revealed above, the real crime of Thornberry and the Labour Party is that they are trying to ride two ponies in the same race.

In her video she's spouting exactly the Labour Party line, the 'it's not racist to be concerned about immigration' 'tough and fair about immigration' 'Labour will make immigrants wait two years for benefits' and 'we admit we got it wrong on immigration'

While at the same time looking down their noses in disgust and mocking exactly the people they have written those policies to appeal to.

It is perfectly possible to be opposed to the EU's open door policy without being racist. If you can't understand that Z-11 then it's at least one thing that you share with Gordon Brown.

I am opposed to the EU's open borders, I am in fact opposed to EU membership, and I look down in disgust and mock racists. It's not two ponies in the same race.

UKIP is a right-wing racist party and it appeals to racists, as well as deeply confused non-racists. You can be both opposed to UKIP and opposed to the EU.

He is only partly correct on Europe ie the importance of being a member. But like many others he is wrong to support the folly of a fixed exchange rate in non-optimum currency area. So well intended perhaps, but mis-guided.

I had the pleasure of attending a conference with him and other MPs not so long ago. He is a masterful after dinner speaker. I asked him about why they struggle to engage with UKIP - it's a deliberate policy of not taking on nutters directly (Farage, Salmond etc) that comes from the US-inspired (sic) strategists that haunt Westminster. Folly IMO. UKIP and Ys are far more savvy despite the nonsense that they both spout on most issues. The last two by-elections have shown this very clearly - when will the main parties wake up?

He does love that tie though - wore it at the conference, on QT last night and even on his wiki page!

[quote=bencooper ]Yes, and it's sad that that's the case, but I don't know how you can solve it. But I meant Scots with Union flags - there's too many Orange Order and other associations.

Simple - if you're Scottish wave a Saltire, if you're English wave a Union Flag. Problem solved.

Indeed THM. I also agree with you that the Euro is madness. But labour was never going to take us into that.

But what the labour party should be doing at the present is pointing out the utter and complete lunacy it would be to withdraw from the EU. All those UKIPers and rabid right wing Tories who want us out, have separated themselves from reality. It would be absolute economic armageddon. The labour party should be shouting this from the rooftops (with the support of the few remaining non-insane members of the Tory party like Ken Clarke.

But as Miliband is so utterly spineless, he's hoping that if he just doesn't mention it, then it'll just go away. It won't

And what we face now, with Cameron painting himself into a corner trying to take on UKIP, is the Tory party possibly taking us out of Europe by accident. I don't think Dave actually wants to withdraw from the EU any more than Ken Clarke does. He's bright enough to know what the reality of that would look like. And the legacy that he worries so much about would be 'PM who got the UK to commit economic suicide for the sake of appeasing some right wing nut jobs!'

It would be absolute economic armageddon.

🙂

It was a joke. It backfired. Politicians can't do jokes, it's not allowed.

If Scotland had gone independent ****ing the Scots in anyway possible would be a vote winner.
The Uk leaving Europe would result in a similar strategy towards us.

Regardless of what we may think of the flag (or white vans) it's not acceptable to assume that someone is racist or reactionary based on their house or trade.

Such as when the white English guy and his Indian wife moved into my parent's street, the family with the flag pole and both st Georges cross and ukip flags flying (I kid you not) welcomed them with open arms.

Oh, wait a minute. Did I say with open arms ? I meant to say "you're the first brown person in this street. Your sort aren't welcome here "

England isn't the USA. If you fly a flag every day you aren't simply a patriot showing your love for your country.