[Closed] Did it really happen

I'd rather be an idiot that believed it happened than an idiot that thinks it didn't.

I spent 13 years in Germany and never came across anyone who denied the holocaust although everyone was aware that there were those that lived in denial.

Genocide & mass-murder has been present all through history.. The largest genocide being the near extinction of Native Americans, yes ladies and gentlemen the Red Indians (in both North and South America) and the 2nd largest being the Jewish Holocaust in WWII with people like Stalin, hitler, Pol Pot, Mao being some of the most recent large-scale murderers with Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia being two of of the most recent places where atrocities have shocked.

Don't even get me started on the religious based mass murders of the Catholic sanctioned Spanish Inquisition, or thecrusades of the Templar knights

Genocide & mass-murder has been present all through history..

What makes the the Holocaust different was that the mass murder was done on an industrial scale. Victims could be dead within minutes of arriving Auschwitz, and nothing more than ashes a couple of hours later. And that happen at the rate of 12,000 a day in Auschwitz - just one concentration camp. None of that compares with what happened in "former Yugoslavia" for example.

I think the Nazis originally just wanted the Jews out. The early 'solutions' did not involve genocide, one of them was to create a Jewish state / ghetto on Madagascar. It wasn't taken up. The exterminations only started later as the allies started to approach.

Gosh ... Massively edited from my initial reaction ... Only a complete moron or a malicious fool can dispute the 6 million figure .. people did have a rough idea of the number of Jews and others in Europe before and after and without seeking to be racist about it Germans are quite meticulous record keepers . My godfather was in the propaganda unit that was amongst the first allied troops into the camps and took a lot the photos you can see today . Not a subject he liked to discuss too much .

The Germans were even allowed to have one war hero in the form of Field Marshal Rommel, despite the fact that in reality he was probably a committed Nazi just like the rest of the German High Command

Unless you can point to some reference, you might retract that. Rommel was linked to plot to assassinate Hitler, although he wanted Hitler imprisoned for his crimes. Rommel was a national hero and Hitler feared killing him. Rommel took cynaide in a deal with Hitler to avoid his family being persecuted.

I'm not saying he was a "good guy", just that "committed Nazi" is not correct.

Unless you can point to some reference, you might retract that.

No I'm not going to retract that. I'll stick with my comment that in reality he was probably a committed Nazi just like the rest of the German High Command. Feel free not to agree with me though.

"No I'm not going to retract that. I'll stick with my comment that in" the history I made up on the spur of the moment "he was probably a committed Nazi just like the rest of the German High Command" .

History is something you can study you know there are books about it and records and everything. You don't need to rely on random speculation and fantasy.

Indeed you don't Crankboy. That's why I'm aware that Rommel was a close and trusted personal friend of both Hitler and Goebbels, very involved in training the Hitler Youth, personal bodyguard to Hitler - even before the War had started, the intense rivalry which existed, and was encouraged by Hitler, in the security apparatus and military, how the coupe plotters were tortured to give the "correct" answers, how realising that Hitler was going to lose you the war and should be got rid of didn't automatically make you an anti-Nazi, how a totally defeated and thoroughly demoralised West Germany without one single hero free of the Nazi stigma was no good to Churchill and the Americans, etc etc

I'm not convinced that Rommel was a "close and trusted personal friend of both Hitler and Goebbels".

A fine general yes, fighting for "the wrong side" definitely, but a close friend of Hitler & Goebbels?

I can't believe this debate is even going on 😯

Seriously? You actually believe that we went to war with Germany to obtain technology that nobody knew about when the war started? You are completely nuts.

Have a listen to this report by Richard Dimbleby, father of David and Jonathan Dimbleby, he was one of the first reporters into Belsen after it was liberated.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hLYavpMSFs

There was an interesting film on bbc 4 last night , michael Heneke's White Ribbon-- set in a village in germany just before the first world war--- an attempt to warn/explain how an authoritarian/patriarchal society is a very dangerous thing........

I didn't see anyone say that the reason GB declared war was antisemitism.

There are other documented reasons, but I've never seen that one.

This thread was about how awful and whether it was a normal in other countries to deny the holocaust, not whether a war was fought over it.

Lest we forget...

Here's a question. I think it's a good idea that Germany, and indeed the rest of the world, always remember what happened so that we can hopefully prevent similar situations from arising again.

But isn't it perhaps getting towards time that Germany, as a country, can stop apologising for it? It was seventy years ago, the vast majority of people alive today had nothing to do with it. I don't really see why someone three generations down the line should be accountable for something that their great-grandfathers did, any more than I feel guilty that Adam and Eve ate some fruit.

Ie, can we move on and still remember?

Couple of replies,

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Plenty of people think it was faked.

There are always going to be debates about numbers. Over the years the figure has come to be accepted as between 5 and 6 million.

I'm no expert, but isn't that specifically relating to Jewish people? The total including non-Jewish is something like 10-20m IIRC.

I was merely pointing out that you should never trust numbers that come from people who have an biased interest in the size of those numbers....
only someone of limited intellect would disagree with the idea that figures for deaths in conflict, written by the winners of that conflict, are at risk of being biased.

Those figures are based at least in part on Nazi records. The allies didn't just pull a figure out of their arse.

I mean, they may have during wartime propaganda, but we've since all had several decades to go back and work it out. It's an accepted figure by all parties involved in the conflict. It's not like Britain is claiming ten million and Germany is insisting it's only two, in which case you might have had a sensible point for once, everyone is in agreement here.

Ernie i am not sure i have the tools to win this debate but in defence of Rommel
"very involved in training the Hitler Youth" was he not Wehrmacht liaison to the Hitler Youth and did the Nazis not resist his plans to try and draw them into Wehrmacht control?
Hitler may well have appointed a decorated war hero to his personal bodyguard that does not mean that appointee shared his ideology or they were mates .Hitler was at the time keen to show case his military pedigree. I would however be interested to see any evidence of actual friendship.

Rommel is on record as having opposed early Nazi anti jewish policy’s (which weakened the army). He also was publically contemptuous of Hitler’s orders in relation to captured commandos. He wrote a book entitled "War with out Hate" at a time when the Nazis were promoting a war to exterminate the "untermench" not exactly a good Nazi choice of title.

We may end up arguing over what we mean by as committed a Nazi as the rest of the high command but his career and death smack more of a professional patriotic soldier, who like many believed the German Army and people were robbed of victory in WW1, than a politically committed Nazi. He clearly shared Nazi goals in relation to rebuilding Germanys military might and territory but appears to have opposed or at least not shared their ideology.

The OP was asking how could this happen in a so called advanced modern state-- don't be fooled by the cry of 'democracy'-- its often used by all kinds to hide their intent.

is it coincidence that the germany, italy , and spain --three fascist regimes were bolstered by the RC church ?

I would say yes.

Adam and Eve ate some fruit.

On a slight but related tangent to this post partially quoted. There's a large group of people on the planet, with it's head office near Rome that still have a downer on 51% of the population because of that piece of fruit. In the light of this 70 years is still some way off being able to move on.

There are many things i would criticise religion for and the catholic church in particular. Fascism is not amongst these.

as said before authoritarian/patriarchy is a dangerous mix-- the RC church is ideological conduit for this....

is it coincidence that the germany, italy , and spain --three fascist regimes were bolstered by the RC church ?

Did Franco commit any atrocities, or even Salazars Portugal, I though that Franco was even thanked for helping Jews escape Germany?

Franco-- you serious ? hell yes , the persecution of all opposition, you must be a ukip guy ?

Ie, can we move on and still remember?

I think we have, and do.

If anybody has moved on, it's the Germans.

The early 'solutions' did not involve genocide, one of them was to create a Jewish state / ghetto on Madagascar. It wasn't taken up. The exterminations only started later as the allies started to approach.

Not so much. Einsatzgruppen started the wholesale slaughter in 1939 after the invasion of Poland in 1939. From the invasion of the Soviet Union onwards, there's absolutely no doubt about the scale of mass murder committed and intended.

Unless you can point to some reference, you might retract that. Rommel was linked to plot to assassinate Hitler, although he wanted Hitler imprisoned for his crimes.

Linked but not actively involved by many accounts. Like a lot of the army, he only became anti-Hitler once the tables turned in the war not while they were winning so he may not have been an enthusiastic Nazi but by his inactivity (and that of other members of the general staff) the end result was little different to if they had been. Their goal was saving Germany once the scale of the impending defeat was clear not the removal of a tyrant who was responsible for a massive war. If they'd tried to do it a bit earlier it might have been more convincing.

Rudebouy - No, not a UKIP guy but judging by your reply you appear to be the kind of person who likes to 'label' others who don't share your views, mmmmh, where have we seen that before?

I was referring to Francos treatment of the Jews (relevant to this thread) not his murderous dictatorship, guess I didn't make it clear.

This thread was about how awful and whether it was a normal in other countries to deny the holocaust, not whether a war was fought over it.

i just said that its possible there were other reasons to ww2 that maybe aren't that well known

Its also entirely possible that I reproduce via a daffodil protruding from my backside. However, the real issue is: Is it likely? Much as it might be interesting, perhaps world shaking if either were true, the fact is that neither supposition is at all likely. However, given that the world in general was just getting away from the bi-plane at the outbreak of WW2, and that subsequently released documents and factual evidence all support the liklihood that you are talking nonsense. So I'd go with my Daffodil proposal if you want to avoid being pointed at in the street.

In all I came away just none the wiser about how a group of well educated modern western otherwise normal people (not the Nazis, normal germans) did this....

If you, or anyone on here is interested, the novel 'The Kindly Ones' by Jonathan Littell provides one of the most remarkable explorations of one man's psyche in relation Nazism I have ever come across.

A strongly recommended read, and very relevant to this discussion.

crankboy - Member

Ernie i am not sure i have the tools to win this debate but in defence of Rommel

To be fair I'm not interested in having a debate about Rommel - it's you who seemed to want to have one. I just stated my opinion in one sentence and in terms of probability and was happy to leave it at that, without any need to [i]retract[/i] - as bizarrely requested to do.

However, given that the world in general was just getting away from the bi-plane at the outbreak of WW2

Names for 2/3 of jewish victims. Sorry, I got the wrong page in my last post.

Typical of the lies and propoganda we have been fed by the global Zionist conspiracy. Some of those names are in there twice!

Same name, or same profile, DOB and name. There are hundreds of me. I'd like to bet a lot of John Smiths share the same DOB and given the jewish affection for biblical first names and a limited number of surnames I'm not surprised many names appear twice or more.

I was referring to Francos treatment of the Jews (relevant to this thread) not his murderous dictatorship, guess I didn't make it clear.

yeah, sorry for the ukip quip, was a cheap shot, was just getting heated about this subject-- but i stand by the thrust of my argument, in order for fascism to prosper certain conditions need to be in place,authoritarian regimes need support from existing structures, usually church based, the rc church shares many of the same traits, hence the coincidence that they go well together, i am not saying that individuals of that faith are fascistic, far from it, many have died fighting it, but as an institution the vatican has a long and inglorious history of oppression and denial, allied to its avowed patriarchal ideology , it has been a fair weather friend of all fascistic regimes.As they say , they both piss in the same pot....

Don't back down you have a good point, Rudeboy. Down here the Catholic church was guilty of genocide. [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar_Perfect ] The Cathars were ruthlessly suppressed and finally exterminated by the Catholic Church in the 14th century.[/url].

I wasn't there but I'm pretty sure it did happen.

edukator-- did not know about that particular episode in history, i can imagine the threat they posed to rc ideology, so yes , the original fascists did what they do best--genocide of all opposition.

I am not backing down, was just clarifying my position,and i did aim a cheap shot at the man, ukip is a nasty insult !

Interesting read on this thread but backpeddling a bit....

Anyone else remember or have seen [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Conspiracy-DVD-Kenneth-Branagh/dp/B0000AZVHM ]Conspiracy, Kenneth Branagh[/url]

I thought this was a gripping insight into the high level discussion of The Final Solution. Like some of the reviews, almost like the debates at corporate strategy meetings but with very sinister outcomes.

Of course it happened but this makes interesting reading as an example of Glupton's point.
[url= http://rense.com/general69/dim.htm ]Auschwitz Numbers[/url]

Of course it happened but this makes interesting reading as an example of Glupton's point.
Auschwitz Numbers

What point - that you can find some total rubbish on the Internet? Have a look at the homepage of that site - can you seriously tell me that the people behind that are not completely off their trolleys?

as an example of Glupton's point.

It's an example of how NOT to choose your sources of information.

The person responsible is almost as "batshit mental" as the point glupton attempted to make. 🙄

Jeff Rense

Conspiracy Theorist.

[img] [/img]

So why did they change the numbers on the plaques then? Shits'n'gigs?

I'm not sure if you realise it or not, but you are peddling the same argument that Holocaust Denial loons have been using for ages. 😯

You might want to read this.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/four-million-01.html