[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

Four 'undred!

Get in.

Wrong, again.

About what?

How many times do you religion debatists need it explaining to you, what you all are, like it or not.
You are, like me and everyone else, an Agnostic, since neither Atheism or Religious faith can be proven so the default is obvious.

The world is Agnostic if only it would admit it and become a better place.

Except, it isn't. This is the sort of disingenuous argument that some theists use to point score against atheists; it basically implies that even though you reject religion, you're still a little tiny bit religious really, aren't you?

I don't "know" there is no god. But, the only reason to think there might be is a bunch of fables and superstitions written by collections of scientifically ignorant people trying to make sense of the universe thousands of years ago, written in dead language that no-one really understands, and then roughly translated hundreds of years later by other groups of people with their own "interpretations" and agendas. The fact that most of the Western world these days thinks Jesus was a long haired beardy [i]white[/i] man strolling around the Middle East should demonstrate just how reliable these accounts are.

As Miketually nicely suggested, I don't "know" that there's no Father Christmas or Tooth Fairy either. They could exist, there's plenty of stories about them too.

So I can't disprove gods, Santa or dental pixies, and I don't know for certain that they don't exist. But in all those cases, there's no reason to think that they might, other than old, unverifiable stories which beggar any sort of sense.

So I believe, and [i]I know beyond any reasonable doubt[/i], that there is no god. Ergo, I am atheist, not agnostic. I'm making any apologist concessions that there might be a god, any more than

Should evidence come to light in the future that this 'knowledge' may be incorrect, then I will of course revise my stance accordingly.

Has he gone?

To put that another way,

Trying to 'prove' Atheism is like trying to 'prove' Superman. Atheism is the baseline, it's our observed, measured universe. The burden of proof relies on those suggesting wacky alternatives. Atheism isn't a belief system, it's the absence of one; I don't go around actively not believing in things, I'd be here all day.

There's books about Superman. They've even got pictures of him and everything. 😀

Is it time for my favourite yet?????

"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby"

Yeah, there's a meme floating around the Internet along those lines. Hang on.

EDIT - here we go.

[img] [/img]

Surfer > that's great. (-:

Thing is, most of the believers, especially on here, aren't particualrly expecting others to take their beliefs seriously.

Really? You don't think religions or the religious try to persuade others to join in or take their beliefs seriously?

[img] [/img]

Is it a physicist that I see shouting about the bible in the town centre on a weekend? Do small groups of chemists post copies of the Watchtower through my door? Do top geologists get reserved places in the House of Lords?

[i]Do top geologists get reserved places in the House of Lords? [/i]

there's lots of old fossils, does that count?

Something else just occurred to me.

Isn't stamp collecting a weird hobby? I mean, hobbies are things you do with your free time, like (for instance) mountain biking. Do philatelists say to their spouses, "See you later on, dear, I'm just going to go into the study to collect stamps for a couple of hours."

I had a stamp album as a kid. I'd get stamps, put them in the album. Took about ten seconds. That leaves me with one hour, fifty-nine minutes and fifty seconds to kill.

or stymie medical research whilst benefiting from tax breaks and charity status?

[i] That leaves me with one hour, fifty-nine minutes and fifty seconds to kill. [/i]

they spend that time on SingleFrankWorld arguing about religion, I susepct.

Molgrips - I'm not sure if you are trolling or genuinely trying to suggest that the comparison for evidence between electrons and a God is a sensible comparison.

I was drawing parallels, which I explained already.

From what I've read before molgrips likes to play devil's* advocate on religious threads, not sure if he thinks the religious are outnumbered on STW and they need a bit if help or he just likes a good debate.

Both, but what I really enjoy is when we advance the debate. And to be fair every time it comes it up it gets more interesting, as it moves away from 'hahaha religious thickos'.

I can vouch that Molly definitely exists

I don't think that personal testimony can be considered sufficient evidence.

So... furnished as we now are with that knowledge, who fancies starting a religion in his name? I feel it would provide us all with a degree of certainty that's presently lacking

So wait - I'm God and you're what, John the Baptist? This could work.

It's all a bit egotistic

Yes, and in my limited bible knowledge this seems to be one of the areas where the OT flatly contradicts the NT.

If this is the case (and I'm not disagreeing) then following scientific procedure one should come to the conclusion that Atheism is probably correct given the current information

Not in the least. The question of why there was a big bang is still absolutely wide open.

Creationism is not looking good though, but that's not the same as religion.

I know beyond any reasonable doubt

You can't know. And your sentence belies that too. You believe beyond reasonable doubt, but the definition of 'reasonable' is entirely subjective.

Somafunk you're bordering on being offensive with your comments.

What's wrong with being offensive/offended?

Being offended doesn't give you special rights or anything.

they spend that time on SingleFrankWorld arguing about religion, I susepct.

Waste of time, philately will get them nowhere.

(sorry)

So wait - I'm God

I've seen you ride and can confirm you move in mysterious ways.

I saw you prostrate yourself a few times Cougar 🙂

Yeah, I think I ended up with stigmata, that'd explain it.

"Junkyard do you believe there is not a God?"
Junkyard: "Yes"

"NotJunkyard do you believe there is a God?"
NotJunkyard: "Yes"

Can either of you prove your belief?

Both: No

So you're both Agnostics,

Welcome to our world Junkyard, we'll be sending you a pack in due course and will expect you to go door to door preferably accompanied by a small child which you should at no time molest or discuss sexual matters with and concentrate on telling everyone they 'don't know' and so are Agnostics and help us spread the word.
One day we will expect you to demonstrate your total belief by wearing a nice vest which will explode you to new levels of Agnostic none knowledge whilst converting others simultaneously.

(typed earlier posted a bit later)

From what I read, (although Junky can probably answer for himself), he's more likely to say "Certainly, although I'm prepared to consider that I may be wrong, given supportive evidence", no?

Can you prove Father Christmas doesn't exist? No. Logical conclusion, you aren't really sure whether Father Christmas exists or not?

When igrfjr says "daddy, is father christmas real?" do you say "well, no-one really knows for sure..."

Your logical fallacy is: [url= http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof ]Burden of Proof[/url].

Thanks for playing.

"Should evidence come to light in the future that this 'knowledge' may be incorrect, then I will of course revise my stance accordingly."

Yep ... that's what happened for me.

But C if your waiting for someone to wheel him out and say “here you go we’ve finally got him/her/them” you’re safe in your atheism. Because it just won’t happen, it can’t … you have to find him for yourself.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ? And that’s not to call into question your intelligence/manly hood/courage etc … really what is to be scared of ? Challenge your preconceived ideas, is that not a sign of intelligence? Is that not what science does?

I like our little tete a tete Cougar…. I hope you don’t mind me directing my responses to a wider audience at yourself. Please tell me if you’ve had enough and I’m boring you to tears.

Cougar - Your example doesn't sound like shifting the burden of proof to me.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ? And that’s not to call into question your intelligence/manly hood/courage etc … really what is to be scared of ? Challenge your preconceived ideas, is that not a sign of intelligence? Is that not what science does?

I did that many years ago. It led me to conclude that religion is a bunch of tosh and that there is no god. I only recently came to use the label Athiest.

Is it a physicist that I see shouting about the bible in the town centre on a weekend? Do small groups of chemists post copies of the Watchtower through my door? Do top geologists get reserved places in the House of Lords?

I did say 'most'.

Science at work...

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Harvard_prayer_experiment

Yep ... that's what happened for me.

Wow, you have evidence of god? Mate, you're going to be rich. Have you contacted the media?

if your waiting for someone to wheel him out... it just won’t happen, it can’t

Why not? There's only one scenario I can think of where it'd be wholly impossible.

We're at angry dolphins a little here. There's a difference between finding god in the biblical sense ('I've let his love into my life') and practical terms ('ooh, there he is!'). I'm not sure as one is a direct substitute for the other.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ?

I have an open mind. We've discussed this before. As a kid, I was obsessed with the supernatural and paranormal. I've done a lot of research into how and why 'unexplained events' can happen. Religion is no different.

You (and others) have mentioned "fear" a few times now. I don't understand where this comes from ('The Little Book of Indoctrination' perhaps) but I can assure you I'm not scared. It's actually a bit of a weird accusation from an atheist perspective; theist blackmailing is only a threat if you believe in it in the first place (or if your religion of choice promotes the burning of heretics, I suppose).

Contrary to Xtian belief perhaps, a little bit of hallelujahing isn't going to make me suddenly give credence to baseless superstitions. It might give me a sense of community, make new friends, even revise my opinion of 'good works', all of which are positive things, but it's going to take more than a large pretty building and a shouty man in a frock to convince me that the concept of a deity is anything more than an outdated relic from when we didn't know any better.

I like our little tete a tete Cougar…. I hope you don’t mind

Not at all, it's interesting.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ?

Various church family events from birth onward. Religion in school. Church youth group during teenage years. A couple of Witton Castle Harvest events, with some big-name speakers where the Toronto blessing-style stuff "happened". Regular Sunday morning church attendance until a year or so ago. Married to a Christian school chaplain, who has [url= http://lindisfarnertp.org/media/editor/file/LTT%20leaflet%20Feb%202011%20(website).pdf ]studied higher-level theology[/url].

Nothing I've seen or experienced makes me think there's anything beyond this material world. Nothing I've seen of Christianity makes me think there's anything beyond this material world. Nothing I've seen of Christians makes me think there's anything beyond this material world. Nothing I've read makes me think there's anything beyond this material world.

It's nonsense.

Science at work...

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Harvard_prayer_experiment
br />

Yes, the idea of petitionary prayer is a complex theological point in many of the mainstream Christian churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing

The more are gathered together, the lower the IQ count...

Nothing I've seen or experienced makes me think there's anything beyond this material world

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

Also see: Anything Derren Brown has done in front of a large audience...

what have you got to be scared of

Why do you presume that people are scared because they don't believe in God or are religious, and further more what do we need to look for 🙄

Also see: Anything Derren Brown has done in front of a large audience

If you think that's in any way analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

I proved the existence of Father Christmas to the then igrfjnrs, had them believing for a long while, just as I bought them up as good Catholic girls in a faith school that I fell over myself trying to get them into Agnostic Hypocrite that I am.

Seems obvious but worth noting that being an atheist isn't a belief system it's just a very specific single thing - I don't believe in gods. Too often I see religious people try and expand the definition of atheist to include all types of things that do not logically follow on from not believing in gods. Like being a complete bastard for instance, I may well be but that's got nothing to do with the supernatural.

Odd really but there it is.

If you think that's in any way analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

If you think that this isn't analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

If you think that this isn't analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

Go on then, tell me how a Derren Brown program is analogous to either organised religion or personal faith.

To me it sounds like the sort of unhelpfully glib comment that athiests use to demean the notion of faith so that they don't have to actually engage with it.

Oh, this should be good.

*gets comfy*

Chocco Leibnitz?

You made the initial comment Woppit. What do you say?

Oh and if you're going to bring biscuits better make them good dunkers.

O.K.

See my previous link to the "Toronto Blessing".

The similarity should be obvious. Although I'm not going to spell it out for you.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Rally

Ah I see you were comparing DB to the theatrics of the toronto blessing? Fair do's. Not immediately obvious from the way it was posted.

... or any reinforcing ceremony...

Spin - Member
Also see: Anything Derren Brown has done in front of a large audience
If you think that's in any way analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

POSTED 15 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

As an intelligent, psychological persuasion artist of the 20/21st century, who mostly explains how his "magic" works, it's entertainment to watch on your telly

If he'd had be practising his art 1000 years ago and claiming it was divine/supernatural/magic he'd have been branded a heretic by the church and burned to death until he was dead (as would his followers)

If he'd been around 2 or 3 thousand years ago he may have started "Derrenity" as a new religion (if he had enough followers to gain momentum and protection from adversaries)

None of our modern, monotheistic religions are actually very old in relation to civilised man's history on earth and they all gained their momentum by being in the right place (geographically and socially) at the right time. They are contemporary to our understanding of the universe around us at that time

joolsburger - Member
Seems obvious but worth noting that being an atheist isn't a belief system it's just a very specific single thing

Hmm maybe I should go and look it up, but my belief was that Atheist believe definitely that there is no God.

So Atheism is a belief system in which they can conduct their lives with out fear of heavenly retribution.

You're right "scared" is the wrong word.... Lets try lose.

What have you got to lose? As opposed to what you may gain?

Mike's alright after not finding God with all his experiences. Yet I've gain loads, when I wasn't really that worried either way.

The upside seems massive to me and the downside very limited ??

Peace..outta here

If he'd had be practising his art 1000 years ago and claiming it was divine/supernatural/magic he'd have been branded a heretic by the church and burned to death

Unless he'd managed to become Pope, of course...

For instance, he could have claimed that god told him, in private, that the "virgin Mary" had achieved precedence and should now be the focus of worship rather than "Jesus"!

Oh, wait...

I'm glad that your adoption of religion has given you some happy things, Ro5ey.

I'm still unclear as to what your god actually looks/sounds like or consists of, as you seem to be avoiding the question.

Edit: Oh. He's gone.

Yep, I was right, you Atheists have clubs, organisations forums, my you even have [url= http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/stand_up_comedians_launch_uk_s_first_atheist_church_in_islington_1_1747944 ]your very own church[/url] sorry dudes you're every bit as nutty as the theist fruitcakes..

Agnosticism - it's the only truth and the light.

Second programme of Derren Brown's most recent programme:

In the second programme, Brown demonstrates how he can induce a "religious experience" in a self-styled Atheist (and stem-cell scientist). He reproduces a number of well known psychology experiments which show how even non-believers are "hard-wired" to be susceptible to suggestions of super-natural (and religious) presences.

There's lots of shared experiences/movements/speech/singing in church services, which I'd say would make people feel part of a group and experience empathy/rapport like [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology) ]mirroring[/url] does. You can experience the opposite of this by [i]not[/i] joining in during a church service; it's quite an uncomfortable feeling.

Hmm maybe I should go and look it up, but my belief was that Atheist believe definitely that there is no God.

So Atheism is a belief system in which they can conduct their lives with out fear of heavenly retribution.

Atheism is not a belief system. I don't believe in father christmas is that a belief system too?

Not believing in gods implies absolutely nothing else about a person or how they might conduct their lives.

The upside seems massive to me and the downside very limited ??

Pascals wager = Cop out.

Second programme of Derren Brown's most recent programme:

In the second programme, Brown demonstrates how he can induce a "religious experience" in a self-styled Atheist (and stem-cell scientist). He reproduces a number of well known psychology experiments which show how even non-believers are "hard-wired" to be susceptible to suggestions of super-natural (and religious) presences.
There's lots of shared experiences/movements/speech/singing in church services, which I'd say would make people feel part of a group and experience empathy/rapport like does. You can experience the opposite of this by not joining in during a church service; it's quite an uncomfortable feeling.

Anyone who who's done a lot of clubbing will also testify to this, regardless of their religious beliefs or level of propensity for recreational drug use.

joolsburger - Member
Hmm maybe I should go and look it up, but my belief was that Atheist believe definitely that there is no God.
So Atheism is a belief system in which they can conduct their lives with out fear of heavenly retribution.

Atheism is not a belief system.

Well if it's not a belief system why do they have a church? (see a couple of posts back)

What have you got to lose? As opposed to what you may gain?

Mike's alright after not finding God with all his experiences. Yet I've gain loads, when I wasn't really that worried either way.

The upside seems massive to me and the downside very limited ??

Downsides for me, if I became a Christian:
Believing that one of my sister's relationships isn't as special as my other sister's relationship, because it has the incorrect number of penises involved;
Giving up my Sunday mornings;
Spending time with some slightly odd people;
Angst over whether I was interpreting the bible correctly;
Cognitive dissonance;
Guilt over propping up an unjust system of governance.

Well if it's not a belief system why do they have a church? (see a couple of posts back)

There's a meeting where stuff is discussed. To me, it sounded more like a sciencey stand-up show.

Muslims and Jews don't have churches. Are they not religions?

Who has a church, two comedians and a few people in Islington? Not going for that they are prolly christian plants trying to embarrass Richard Dawkins.

And who are they exactly? I'm as atheist as it gets I have no relationships with anyone via atheism however I may know a few for other reasons.

If God is omnipresent, why do Christians feel the need to attend church on a Sunday to worship him?

Well if it's not a belief system why do they have a church? (see a couple of posts back)

Well having taken in the time to actually read that link it seems that they just want a place to have a bit of a get together/singsong and say hey isn't it great to be alive. Not something I'd join if I'm honest but to each their own.

There is also the slightly comedic part about the catholic preist being a bit offended by it so it's not an idea totally devoid of merit.

a few people in Islington

I did a couple of courses here in the nineties, when they were in Islington.

Interesting experience in how to manipulate perceptions by involving a group of people in trusting the aims of the organisers/directors...

http://www.grubb.org.uk/

What have you got to lose?

Hours of my life?

As opposed to what you may gain?

What am I likely to gain that I don't already have?

if it's not a belief system why do they have a church?

The fact that it's been founded by a comedian might shed some light onto that.

If you read back through previous discussions, Ro5ey has posited that the 'church' does good things, gives a sense of community and brings people together, and I've argued that there's no reason why we can't do that anyway without all that messy 'religion' business.

Essentially, it's a community centre, serving the same purpose that churches have historically done but without all the "you'll go to heaven if you do as you're told and burn in hell if you don't" bribery / blackmail which often comes with organised religion.

Cool idea.

[quote> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing

The more are gathered together, the lower the IQ count...

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #

Neocharismatic? Most christians would think they are crazy bonkers. Extremists of all types could be used to condemn the majority.

An observation, most of the arguments which are put forward by the atheists are far from new, they have been well considered by most of the mainstream churches for many years and in more complex ways. Not to mention all the sophomoric long into the night discussions at Uni.

Essentially, it's a community centre, serving the same purpose that churches have historically done but without all the "you'll go to heaven if you do as you're told and burn in hell if you don't" bribery / blackmail which often comes with organised religion.

I am drawn to this idea and also to the idea that regardless of the ills of organised religion there is much to be learned from personal faith. It's why I'll happily stick the boot in organised religion but am reluctant to do so to faith despite being and athiest myself.

The big problem with the idea you propose is what glue will hold that group together?

On my phone so bear with

Mike c'Mon .... How does the Mrs feel about your sisters. Slightly odd people, hmm like the one you are married to... 🙂

C... To gain .... Get your kids in the school... Nah joke, but see the rest of my first post, for my experiences

An observation, most of the arguments which are put forward by the atheists are far from new, they have been well considered by most of the mainstream churches for many years and in more complex ways. Not to mention all the sophomoric long into the night discussions at Uni.

There is truth in what you say but it is a truth that everyone needs to come to themselves and an argument that everyone needs to live out for themselves.

Mike c'Mon .... How does the Mrs feel about your sisters. Slightly odd people, hmm like the one you are married to...

As I said earlier, my wife's a woolly liberal Anglican so is ok with the gays. Many of her fellow congregation are not and as an organisation it is not.

She'd agree with my assessment of her being slightly odd. Many of her fellow churchgoers are differently-odd, with several being particularly unpleasant people.

The big problem with the idea you propose is what glue will hold that group together?

I'm going to go to the pub with my mates tonight. We've managed to do this fairly regularly for the last twenty-mumble years without requiring religion to keep us attending.

What have you got to lose? As opposed to what you may gain?

I place huge [b]personal[/b] value on the principles and ideas that have led me to an atheist position. I would have to give those things up.

Downsides for me, if I became a Christian:

Weak. You don't have to do any of those things to qualify as Christian.

I'm still unclear as to what your god actually looks/sounds like or consists of, as you seem to be avoiding the question.

That's cos it's a bloody stupid question, I'd be ignoring it too. Why does it matter if he knows or not? You want me to plane you again?

Atheism fits into a mechanistic view of the universe (only the observable, physical is real) which is definitely a belief system. I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.

Weak. You don't have to do any of those things to qualify as Christian.

I was basing the list on my observations of Christians. Hopefully, people also speed the tongue-in-cheek nature of the list.

I don't qualify as a Christian because of my disbelief in their (or any) god and in the divine nature of a bloke 200 years ago.

Atheism fits into a mechanistic view of the universe (only the observable, physical is real) which is definitely a belief system. I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.

Not necessarily. Buddhists are atheists.

infradig - Member

Atheism fits into a mechanistic view of the universe (only the observable, physical is real) which is definitely a belief system. [b]I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.[/b]

I wouldn't.

Believing that one of my sister's relationships isn't as special as my other sister's relationship, because it has the incorrect number of penises involved;

if I could create a universe containing everything, squillions of galaxies and underpinned by complex physical laws and so on, I'd demand to have a infinitely small percentage of it sit in a room and sing songs about me too.

Just had a skim, and someone posted (along the lines of ) 'Religion, give it a try, what's to lose?'

Well a fair bit actually. I don't support homophobia, child genital mutilation, the suppression of females, I didn't think much of Hitler, I don't agree with that bloke who's top banana of that Christian church banning contraception so leading to millions dying of AIDS...and all of these I'd be supporting if I joined up.

I'll quote Steven Weinberg "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.”

My sister couldn't meet her ex's catholic parents.

One of my school friends isn't allowed in his baptist (I think) father's home.

One of the priests at or local church put a petition against gay marriage in the church.

I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.

No no no. Jesus, why is this so difficult a concept to grasp?

I'm happy to accept that there may be more to the universe (and maybe beyond) than we currently know about or can measure. But just because there may be things we don't yet understand doesn't mean we should be giving credence to any old shit that someone made up once, let alone then start proclaiming that to be fact.

Mike, they were of the generation where no one asked them what was going on and they didn't tell.

I genuinely despise the church's attitude towards homosexuality and predjudice, but as I'm sure you're aware what happens 'on the ground' sometimes bears little relation to the official line.

ps, Of course, they were never allowed to do anything as ridiculous as come out: If they had, I'm sure things may have been different.
The church did lend her the money for her mortgage in the 60's though:
All the mainstream banks wanted the signature of a male relative before they'd even consider a single woman as suitable.