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Age discrimination is alive and well on here again.It's statistics and biology, not discrimination. Much like young drivers, that's also biology and statistics (and a good lump of peer pressure).
Could there be a system where everyone who has a driving license has to have a box ticked on their record to say they're medically fit? If a GP/Optician logs in to the system and unticks the box the DVLA and insurers are notified.We have this in Sweden already, it's graduated on some sort of risk calculation. My licensing means i get flagged at 50, someone with a full artic license gets flagged as soon as they start lessons... a normal B license holder gets flagged at 65. And, as far as i understand, different age/category thresholds for eyesight and medical fitness as well. Different rules as well. Like i have to get checked to have a license. A B-license holder will only get flagged if they go for treatment. Still lots slip through. Or will plead with the Dr/optician not to flag them.
A couple of things to consider:
I pay to get my car MOT'd each year to check it is safe to be on the road. Most accidents are caused by the driver, not the condition of the vehicle so it is hard to justify why we don't also check road worthiness of the driver. It medicals and driver assessments shoul dbe standard, paid for by the driver and routine.
I may have siad this earlier in the thread but I have a major issue with lighter sentencing for older people who cause serious accidents. A few years ago there was a horrific incident incident in my village where an older driver mixed up the brake and accelerator and pinned a pedestrian against a wall. The engine was still revving to the max when someone stepped in to turn ignition off. The incident resulted in an amputation. The driver got a suspended sentence. I just can't imagine that sentence would have been suspended had I or one of my teenage children been driving.
Driving is a privilege earned, not an automatic right. Sadly, a number road deaths and injuries seem to be factored in by society as acceptable.
Tell me I'm wrong but we've got far more older people than we ever had, far more people & drivers than we ever had yet the death & injury rates are pretty near the lowest they've ever been.Cars are getting safer, medical interventions are getting better, there's more segregation between cars and VRUs in a lot of areas (LTNs etc). This is just another track (of many) to follow, to reduce injuries and deaths.Am I missing something about this thread?
There's no "acceptable" level of road injury or death, so you keep chipping away at the edges.
The only people who won't like it are the ones we most need to test.
This. There was at least one recent case where the driver knew he was unfit, and carried on anyway. If a third party had had to provide a certificate…
Agree that driving is a privilege not a right. Maybe if we want to protect "society" - individuals, emergency services, NHS - from drivers who are unfit, either health wise or driving like dicks wise - the money we would save could be invested in better public transport to enable them to carry on living healthier independent lives.
Like many issues, upfront investment would produce long term savings and other positive outcomes, but no politician has the guts to offer that longterm vision.
The only people who won't like it are the ones we most need to test.
Couldn't agree more.
Had to have the difficult conversations with older family members,as the 'bumps' in the car parks became more frequent. Luckily there were never any serious accidents.
With that in mind.
I know that all STWers are complete driving gods 😉 ,but looking ahead to your older years, how aware are you of changes (if any)in your competence/skills ,do you do much self assessment?
Personally, I am already thinking how many more years I am going to be driving/motor biking, and have already had the conversation with family/friends about 'keeping an eye on me' 🤣
I know that all STWers are complete driving gods 😉 ,but looking ahead to your older years, how aware are you of changes (if any)in your competence/skills ,do you do much self assessment?
If I start lusting after a Honda Jazz I know my time has come.
I know that all STWers are complete drivinggods 😉 ,butlooking ahead to your older years, how aware are you of changes (if any)in your competence/skills ,do you do much self assessment?
I get assessed by my employer fairly regularly.
I know that all STWers are complete driving gods 😉 ,but looking ahead to your older years, how aware are you of changes (if any)in your competence/skills ,do you do much self assessment?
I think I'm increasingly conscious of my driving. Derbyshire County Council used to offer assessments for older drivers (think it is over 50s) and I'm open to doing that in the absence of proper retesting.
Teaching my kids to drive in the last 5 years was also educational for me.
but looking ahead to your older years,
Looking ahead you say?
Yep elderly parents and we're going to have to have that conversation soon. I've already told my eldest to let me know when my driving turns to shit. He's said that he'll steal the keys off me at that point quite happily and pack me off to Switzerland 😀
Personally, I am already thinking how many more years I am going to be driving/motor biking, and have already had the conversation with family/friends about 'keeping an eye on me' 🤣
Wouldn't cost much to book a driving instructor to give you a mock test each year surely?
Father in law took some sort of extended assessment & gave up/had his licence taken off him there & then, mother in law crashed through a fence with a classic accelerator instead of brake scenario & gave up driving as a result.
We are starting to see issues with my father-in-law – he still drives (although doesn't do motorways anymore). His cognitive capabilities are failing, we suspect he is starting with early signs of dementia, attention span/reaction times are poor and we don't think he should be driving. If a child ran out into a road, we doubt he would be able to stop (this is all a massive shame as he used to race cars competitively and loves to drive). But it is crazy that he can basically self-certify that he can drive as he has yet to be told he shouldn't by a medical professional.
the money we would save could be invested in better public transport to enable them to carry on living healthier independent lives.
I agree, although I'd go a step further and say a marker for a successful society is that people shouldn't need to own cars in the first place.
My MIL is the opposite problem, she won't drive. She's entirely capable but would rather someone drove all the way there, picked her up, drove her back to theirs, and then repeated it later on. But she won't get the bus or ride a bike either 🤷so despite my general attempts to convince people not to use cars, I actually have to convince her to keep hers to save us driving so many unnecessary miles!
Grandad on the other hand was most upset that his recent stroke-like episode (it was actually the fever from an infection causing delirium) might stop him driving. The fact he can't (and hasn't in about 3 years) walk as far as the car unaided didn't seem to occur to him.
He's said that he'll steal the keys off me at that point quite happily and pack me off to Switzerland
Free trip to the Alps? Awesome! Make sure he picks you up again though and has a car big enough for the bike and or skis.
I'd start with mandatory eye tests for everyone every 5 years,
This seems like a quick win to me. "Can you see properly?" shouldn't be a huge ask of a driver, and we have the infrastructure already in place to do it. The last eye test I had was "can you come on Tuesday?" rather than "can you come in September?"
I may have siad this earlier in the thread but I have a major issue with lighter sentencing for older people who cause serious accidents. A few years ago there was a horrific incident incident in my village where an older driver mixed up the brake and accelerator and pinned a pedestrian against a wall. The engine was still revving to the max when someone stepped in to turn ignition off. The incident resulted in an amputation. The driver got a suspended sentence. I just can't imagine that sentence would have been suspended had I or one of my teenage children been driving.
What you may or may not be able to imagine is not relevant. That's not how sentencing works. I'm not retyping the same paragraph three times in as many days on here, but English law operates on a basis of "if X then Y" and "what did we do last time?"
The suggestion that a pensioner would be let off but a teenager would be banged up is fantasy land. There are extra penalties for young drivers but that's for "excess speed" not "cropping someone's legs off."
The fact he can't (and hasn't in about 3 years) walk as far as the car unaided didn't seem to occur to him.
As ever, generalisations should be treated with care. Plenty of blue badge holders struggle to walk, but can drive a car perfectly well.
And plenty can't.
I have a friend who is a blue badge holder (I probably have more than one TBH). Her disability restricts her walking distances but she can drive a car just fine. Compare the old boy next door, also blue badge, seems like every time I walk past his car there's a new ding/scrape on it or it's just had a respray.
As ever, generalisations should be treated with care. Plenty of blue badge holders struggle to walk, but can drive a car perfectly well.
That's my Mum to a tee (although actually I'd question the driving "perfectly well" bit).
She can walk as far as the car. She's then totally reliant on the car. Where the problems arise is secondary car ownership issues - there are many times she's driven to the shops, driven round and round for ages, been unable to find anywhere to park and driven home again. Then she'll repeat the journey a couple of hours later. The amount of excessive driving, the extra stress and anxiety it causes her, the extra costs in fuel...
Naturally she believes that the council should fix this by ripping out the bus and cycle lanes to provide acres of free parking. 🙄
Sounds to me like what they actually need there is more bus lanes. (And Internet shopping.)
Sounds to me like what they actually need there is more bus lanes. (And Internet shopping.)
You know this.
I know this.
If you would like to try and explain it to a stubborn old lady, be my guest because I've tried. The irony is that my Mum went through all of this with my grandpa when he was becoming a danger on the roads. Told him about all the money he'd save on car bills, insurance, etc. Told him how he could get taxis or the bus. It wasn't until he was literally priced off the roads by his insurance premium (due to the large number of bumps / dents / scrapes he was applying to any passing vehicles) that he actually took any notice.
What you are doing if people stop driving is effectively punishing them. You disqualify people from driving as a punishment so why should older drivers not see it as such.
When you get to 70 you lose the right to drive several classes of vehicles when you renew your license, unless you get retested for that class of vehicle.
The stats show high numbers of older people killed and injured in accidents however they did not nescesarily cause those accidents it partly that elderly people are more frail and are easier to kill or seriously injure. In the same way some of the 18 to 25s in the stats were passengers in cars or innocent victims of other drivers
To make society viable for people to function with out cars you have to undo years of car centric town planning.
Most large supermarkets are on out of town sites and difficult to access by public transport or bike.
I manange to function with about one shopping trip by car a week for us and my partners elderly mother and cycle the rest of the time but most people let alone pensioners would want to function like this.
Reversing year of planningfor cars will take year to unravell and a few cycle lanes won't cut it. When you get to the end of the cycle lane you get left to the good offices of car drivers. The cycle lane in our road now functions as extra parking space.
There are simply to many cars and thinking you are virtuous and buying an EV will make little difference.
No Government will not tackle cars as its a vote looser.
"No Government will not tackle cars as its a vote looser."
This 100%, also unlikely any government would get voted in with this in their manifesto.
If a child ran out into a road, we doubt he would be able to stop (this is all a massive shame as he used to race cars competitively and loves to drive). But it is crazy that he can basically self-certify that he can drive as he has yet to be told he shouldn't by a medical professional.
I think you need to ask YOURSELF if he knocks down a child tomorrow, then will you be able to look the child’s parents in the eye and say “the system didn’t take his license away”. If you can’t or won’t have conversation direct DVLA allow anyone to anonymously raise concerns. It may well be his GP has already told him not to, or he’s misled his GP simply so they won’t do the inevitable.
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To make society viable for people to function with out cars you have to undo years of car centric town planning.
The problem has got worse because many more people live into their 80s who are less able to move around. But a more cynical person might say that tomorrrows octagenarians were the people making planning decisions, voting for governments that supported the rise of the car and the property price booms that came from those sort of policies!
Most large supermarkets are on out of town sites and difficult to access by public transport or bike.
virtually everyone in the country can get supermarket deliveries, it may not be how you like to shop, but plenty of OAPs who didn’t do online were happy to do it to avoid exposure to COVID risk during lockdowns - so I would suggest that “I need a car” to get to the shops is convenience not necessity. Plenty of poorer old folk can’t afford a car, plenty with disabilities or severe heath problems have no choice. IF an older person can no longer meet the standard of a safe and competent driver then it’s not a punishment to revoke their license. I don’t think anyone has said just take their license away because they are old.
We are vegan getting a viable diet from an online supermarket would be interesting.
Society also leaves people with driving licences who have accrued more than 12 points on grounds of hardship.
So being a dangerous driver does not mater for some.
Genuine interest, what can't you get online that the local supermarkets and shops do have?
Naturally she believes that the council should fix this by ripping out the bus and cycle lanes to provide acres of free parking. 🙄My mum lives in Clevedon, and they are doing exactly this. Have only seen the "new" layout once or twice and looked like a much nicer place to be. But bugger all parking. You have to walk a block or two.
In Manchester there are shops like Unicorn and Eighth Day who have loads of products that are not available from standard supermarkets. Shops like Sainsburys are obsessed with fake meat and cheese..
Chatting over the fence with a neighbour the other day, he brought up that 'they' were thinking of pedestrianising a local street. It's the centre of our town, about 70m long, parking on one side for 9-10 cars. It's dead handy for drop offs and, if you can find a space, free to park. His thoughts were "Where will I park if it closes?".
I went full on enthusiastic. What a lovely space it would be, open up the middle of town. Cafes, a bar, let kids roam about. Great boost for the local shops. We talked about it for a while. He (45 ish, 1 kid in household, 2 cars, 25 mins walk from house to town, large car park about 4 mins walk away, supermarket about 5 mins walk) could NOT see past "but where will i park".
This is why I said to start at new licence holders, who probably don't vote 😜
We are vegan getting a viable diet from an online supermarket would be interesting. so there’s no vegans who can’t/don’t drive outside big cities?
point of order EXCEPTIONAL hardship and nobody who a court has judged to be a DANGEROUS driver keeps their license (minimum ban, and IIRC extended retest). Anyone even close to the definition of dangerous likely gets a discretionary disqualification. But don’t confuse the question of whether drivers should have to periodically prove their fitness to drive with whether the courts have or correctly use their powers to ban bad drivers. Every day DVLA revokes dozens of licenses on medical grounds, dozens more people are told by their doctor not to drive but we know that people slip through those gaps why should we all not periodically have to prove that we are still fit/able to drive? Why would age not be a logical factor in setting the frequency of reassessment? It currently is - but it’s essentially self declared - which is clearly a system vulnerable to abuse by people who are worried they would have a reduced choice of nut butters if the truth came out, and those who’s very condition impairs their judgement so makes them least able to self assess their own cognitive abilities.Society also leaves people with driving licences who have accrued more than 12 points on grounds of hardship.So being a dangerous driver does not mater for some.
I’ve no idea what 8th day and Unicorn are but I’m guessing wholefoods type shops - perhaps they would be a good place to start encouraging home delivery, it feels like vegan customers are likely to buy into the green credentials of (well thought out) delivery reducing food miles? Forty years ago my maternal grandfather ran a grocers shop in a big village/sml town - it had a van that did deliveries (my recollection is most people came into the shop, picked their food and then it was delivered for them). Particularly popular with the older generation. I recall my maternal grandmother getting something similar from Coop, in Bridge of Allan 25 yrs ago, all before the internet really took off. Now you wouldn’t even need to go and pick your food in person.In Manchester there are shops like Unicorn and Eighth Day who have loads of products that are not available from standard supermarkets. Shops like Sainsburys are obsessed with fake meat and cheese..
What you are doing if people stop driving is effectively punishing them. You disqualify people from driving as a punishment so why should older drivers not see it as such.
No. You're not punishing anyone, but you are protecting everyone else
The state is taking away the legal document from a person that says that they are suitable to drive. It doesn't matter whether that's because they enjoy a drink or ten, because they cannot be trusted to stick to the speed limit or because they're no longer fit to drive
Reversing year of planningfor cars will take year to unravell and a few cycle lanes won't cut it. When you get to the end of the cycle lane you get left to the good offices of car drivers. The cycle lane in our road now functions as extra parking space.
There are simply to many cars and thinking you are virtuous and buying an EV will make little difference.
No Government will not tackle cars as its a vote looser.
While true, that's a separate issue
crossed with poly
As most of us get old we are clearly not going to have a challenge with using online services for shopping and stuff (I have had shopping delivered for around 20 years). There are only a couple of buses a day where I live but I will plan around that and if they don't fit in with something, i.e. hospital appointment then a taxi. Taxis are expensive but buses are free so over the year still going to be less than buying/running a car.
How will I know when I should no longer be driving, when I become as a much of a danger on the roads as I was when I was 18!
In Manchester there are shops like Unicorn and Eighth Day who have loads of products that are not available from standard supermarkets. Shops like Sainsburys are obsessed with fake meat and cheese..
Unicorn
Chorlton Bike Deliveries – for people who find it difficult to get to the shop, we help subsidise a Shop & Drop service from Chorlton Bike Deliveries co-operative. Drop them a line on 07561737986.
Eighth Day
delivery service/online shop: deliveries@8thday.coop
Manchester is fairly well blessed with public transport as a university city as well
The level of stereotyping on this discussion is comical. People are sadly killed everyday on the roads and the reason we are discussing is because it was caused by an elderly driver and is news because it’s notable.
For the test every ten year cohort what’s the safety net for retest as the driving test always has a small element of luck. Are we really saying a fail, lose your job, lose your home etc.? May work great in cities where public transport is available but be careful assuming you are a driving god and will breeze through the retest. I’d wager a significant number of experienced drivers would likely fail a retest. Not sure it would mean they are unsafe though.
i remember conversation straight after passing with my instructor that now I get to learn to drive in the real world.
...and is news because it’s notable.
...and is news because it’s preventable
What a lovely space it would be, open up the middle of town. Cafes, a bar, let kids roam about. Great boost for the local shops. We talked about it for a while. He (45 ish, 1 kid in household, 2 cars, 25 mins walk from house to town, large car park about 4 mins walk away, supermarket about 5 mins walk) could NOT see past "but where will i park".
I was at a public consultation thing recently as part of work - this event was put on by the design / development / build people behind a town centre regeneration so they'd got an empty shop unit and put on a pop-up display. Free coffee outside. Lots of billboards, post-it note boards, pieces of paper, coloured pens and so on for people to draw their "ideal view", post up what you want to see. Public engagement of the very worst type really because frankly if the designers haven't got any idea what they're building, they shouldn't be near the project in the first place.
But anyway.
Lining the walls were loads of info boards with background on the project, artist impressions of the regeneration and so on.
And all I could hear people talking about as they moved around and looked at these boards was "where have they moved the car park to?" "well the car park seems to have gone, how will we get here?"
It's literally a small market town with 6 different bus routes through it and a train station at one side... !
And all I could hear people talking about as they moved around and looked at these boards was "where have they moved the car park to?" "well the car park seems to have gone, how will we get here?"
It's always about the bloody parking. It's the only thing for which people expect to be provided with free storage for their private property. I have some sympathy with the (?Japanese) approach where you have to prove you have a parking space before you can buy a car...
Any reason retests/checks couldn't be conducted on a simulator? Checking hazard perception, reaction time and vehicle operation in a safe environment might be a good way to pre-filter for those to do a 'live-test' if required, those that fail either have a period of mandatory re-training before a simulator re-test or revocation of licence.
I think you need to ask YOURSELF if he knocks down a child tomorrow, then will you be able to look the child’s parents in the eye and say “the system didn’t take his license away”. If you can’t or won’t have conversation direct DVLA allow anyone to anonymously raise concerns
As I said in my post, we are starting to see the decline in his abilities. If we had serious concerns, my wife would not hesitate to speak to her mum and advise her to stop him from driving.
There are driving assessment centres which do all of that for the small number of people that get referred to them. Its quite labour intensive. I'm sure reaction time could be easily measured by opticians as well as doing basic sight test, field of view etc. Would if identify every issue? Probably not, but then no test will.Any reason retests/checks couldn't be conducted on a simulator? Checking hazard perception, reaction time and vehicle operation in a safe environment might be a good way to pre-filter for those to do a 'live-test' if required, those that fail either have a period of mandatory re-training before a simulator re-test or revocation of licence.
Now tonyf1 raises a valid point about someone taking a "periodic retest", lets say they do something wrong, which is a driving test fail. Something like not stopping at the first stop line for advanced stop box (because lets face it they didn't exist when today's 75 yr olds passed their test). Does that mean they are banned from the road immediately because they failed the test - when actually what's needed is a little education. The quality of the driving is actually a different question from fitness to drive.
The level of stereotyping on this discussion is comical.
It's not stereotyping, it's backed up by statistics and biology.
I'd quite like to see restricted licenses/vehicles at the other end of the spectrum too.
those that fail either have a period of mandatory re-training before a simulator re-test or revocation of licence.This is exactly what should happen, if you fail, we need to know *why*. Is it medical, treatable or ongoing degradation that you'll never recover from? Lack of knowledge, can you learn the new rules, or are you just a shit driver who shouldn't be on the road?