Even if they manage to do that it’s still 2 payrolls to get through with no revenue coming in.
True but one PAYE payment to HMRC is roughly equivalent to a 1/4 of a total payroll so assuming you keep that 1/4, and you don't have to pay the next one then your next payroll is 1/2 less painful. Then you only need to find a way through the one after that.
I can understand small businesses that manage hand to mouth, but for bigger ones if they can't make 1 1/2 payrolls without revenue then, well.... I feel for the employees in the short term but the wider economy probably won't miss them and so targeting company based support for them is in most cases pointless. We need a universal income to support the ones that lose their jobs. Any medium size business worth keeping will have 3+ months of costs in the bank. Don't get me wrong Ive owned and run businesses that would have had to fire a lot of people in this very circumstance, but it wouldn't have been for good management on my part. I learned my lessons and run my current business on a very different basis. There's always some disaster round the corner whether is a marketing mis-hap, an industry shortage of critical widgets, a currency disaster....
On another note I can't remember if it was in this thread, but I was moaning about Banks attitudes to the loans, but said some might be doing the right thing. Well I put a call into my local enterprise partnership who are part of the business bank group, and they're offering up to 100K, no personal guarantee, 5-6%.
Yes debt is not to be taken on lightly, but if you needed to be assured of payroll in 4 weeks time thats a very simple route to getting it sorted assuming you can prove that you were viable until the crunch. You'll pay no interest for 12 months, and assuming you get the Gov't furlough monies you can pay it off without risk to your house. Thats how it should be done.
In essence there's enough support it seems for viable businesses even if they live hand to mouth.
Yesterday I had the dubious job of asking customers to use the antibacterial spray/wipes and handgel before entering the store, whilst the majority of them did, there was still the odd arsehole who wouldn't because the handgel was not antibacterial. What is up with these people?
I don’t really follow you sorry
I did payroll yesterday and I still had to pay pretty much the normal amount to the staff and hmrc, and next month I’ll have to work out the average wages for all of the staff over a period (hourly paid, not fixed hours) and pay 80% of that plus NI, PAYE & pensions. Possibly some time after that I might get a grant back from HMRC if the systems are up but if not that’s it, we’re out of cash. I’d then have to look at a loan.
Daughters partner works for large local building firm, all received emails yesterday...
As of now you are all laid off without pay...
Meanwhile the millionaire owners continue as normal.... 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
@colp you can defer your PAYE and NIC payments for 12 months starting immediately. So this months payroll doesn't need to pay the taxman by the 19th of next month. That saving can go towards next months salaries, and of course you'll not need to pay PAYE and NIC on that month either.
Also worth remembering a good proportion of companies will have a vat payment due next month, also deferred. Depending on the business that could conceivably be a months pay on its own depending on the purchasing cycles of the business.
Directors if very small businesses and startups have fallen through the gaps of the government support. I suspect it's because the government do not want to support PSCs so genuine small businesses have been caught up with this.
Here's the petition to give small company directors the same support as employees and the self employed http://chng.it/pKGL78jrY2
Our projects based consultancy work has all been cancelled or postponed by our clients, much if it is retail related so may never come back. The bike accessory side of the business is doing ok for now but it's currently far from enough to support us on it's own.
Worrying times but also thankful that were in a better position than many.
@cheers_drive they have said that directors can furlough themselves as long as they are not actively providing products or services to customers. They (we) can then claim on the job retention scheme. It was well covered by an FSB webinar last week.
That will cover 80% of PAYE income. I have no idea how they could manage dividends & not unintentionally benefit investors.
Don't forget if you want to defer VAT, you must cancel the DD.
Colp- remember the 80% is likely to include employers NI plus pension.
ben- have you any reference to the paye/nic deferment please? Whereas the VAT detail is "straightforward" all I can find for PAYE/NIC is the HMRC time to pay service so it doesn't seem as automatic as VAT an you have to get HMRC approval to defer PAYE.
Thanks
Mrs Zip here..
Regarding help for the self employed.
We are a partnership and we take our pay as drawings .
Does this mean that we will be able to furlough ourselves ?
Does the definition of £50,000 profit mean after we have paid our staff, overheads and ourselves?
FB-ATB you're right. They'd said they would allow deferments on PAYE but it looks like that just means leniency for those who cant pay. Apologies! Seems a bit bonkers mind... My way sounds much better. Why expect to get paid when you're probably handing back cash the other way anyway.
You never know they may switch it out yet.
Ben- an article I'd read stated that they expect companies to pay the PAYE via the deferred VAT. The 2 operating companies in the group I work for are (were) monthly net VAT reclaimers of c£300k so we'd like HMRC to get receipts elsewhere to refund us! Although with construction sites shutting we won't be making any purchases to claim back VAT.
Further to my post re the 80% grant, this was updated on the govt website Fri pm:
and includes the line:
HMRC will pay employers a grant worth 80% of an employee’s usual wage costs, up to £2,500 a month, PLUS the associated Employer National Insurance contributions and minimum automatic enrolment employer pension contributions on that subsidised wage.
My caps: looks like where the initial HMRC statement was a bit vague and most advisors took it to be 80% of employment on-costs, this seems to indicate its not.
In my defence I finish work at 1 on Fridays (*) so don't contemplate anything work related after then! It also means the more work I can keep for usual hours, I can delay being furloughed! Shame as I was getting close to talking myself into buying a one of the Aeris frames on the recent PSA.
* Joys of construction industry- oh wait all our sites are now shut!
Been WFH but we'll be furloughed from 1st.
Interesting call on directors really. If the directors of a company get into a situation where they don’t believe they can pay creditors (this would include employees as well as HMRC) then they have to shut the door and call in the liquidators or they could be “done” wrongful trading.
If they carry on operating the business after having known that the company was insolvent (unable to pay its bills and with debts that exceed the combined value of all its assets) they could be charged with wrongful trading....
Hmmm wonder when this little nugget will get day light and directors of companies will need to shut them down or get prosecuted themselves.
Well, after a week at home doing nothing, apparently there's a laptop heading my way!
I think the insolvency one is interesting. For example if you hold stock of perishables, like a nursery for example, then you know your stock has no value, which immediately makes you technically insolvent (Which is OK), but of course then when you look at when you will get revenue again (next year) and the costs to keep going.... Yes you're probably insolvent. Thats a dilemma that many companies will face. While there's a lot of complaining about people being laid off immediately, the rules do mean that if a company didn't shed its cost base with immediate effect then it would be accruing debt it has no clear means to pay back.
@FB-ATB you know you want one 🙂 They're going pretty fast Im sat next to a big pile ready to leave.
My workplace is asking for volunteers to be furloughed, just over half of the workforce. Spending today weighing up the pro's and cons for me, some of my colleagues it's no-brainer due to commuting costs and childcare. I'd still get enough pay to carry on fine but I don't know whether I could survive the near 24/7 living on my own in a small flat. If there's not enough volunteers then people will be picked the same way as redundancies would. Got to make a decision by midday Wednesday so a bit of time to mull it over. It's only now I've realised how much time I spend every week outside on my bikes!!
Ben - I know I do, but faced with the drop in income when I get furloughed I won't be popular!
Surely that's offset by the fact you're not going out and spending money?! I'd jump at the chance to get paid 80% and sit on my arse playing Xbox for a few weeks/months 😂but faced with the drop in income when I get furloughed I won’t be popular!
Me too, it'd be like being a funded MSc student all over again.
Reluctantjumper
If your workplace still needs staff present, but just a lower number at mo, then on the govt site it does say workers can move in and out of furlough and employment. Say your company needs to furlough 50 staff but only 30 volunteer, the other places could be filled by staff who can't/don't want to furlough rotating. If the co will only pay 80%, it also gives people the chance to work a few weeks on full pay. Might be worth discussing with work?
Zilog
Surely that’s offset by the fact you’re not going out and spending money? I’d jump at the chance to get paid 80%
I jump at 80% pay, I'd actually buy a full price ready built Bird if I was furloughed on that. But I'll be on less than 80% and am the only earner in the house. We don't get out much- having a disabled child restricts one's social life somewhat so little saving to be had there.
We'll be fine FB-ATB, the numbers being asked for men's we'll still have a few spare staff at base every day. Our workload is very predictable with generally a 6 week lead time so easy to call people back from furlough when needed. They have said that there will be no dipping in and out of work though, don't know why but if they allowed people to do so there are a lot who would totally take the piss so I agree with that stance.
Erring towards staying at work as the opportunity to socialise with colleagues and customers plus getting outdoors most days is worth more to me right now than a bit of extra time slobbing round the flat.
I can foresee a fair bit of friction in companies when it's back to normal where people that stayed working make snidey comments about the others on furlough getting paid for nowt.
It's similar to any remarks people used to make about those that WFH pre lockdown.
That ∆∆∆ is starting to rear it's ugly head at my work.
We were asked for volunteers to go on furlough and we had enough by Wednesday that we could have new rosters drawn up. Those of us that will be working will be on basic 39 hours pay every week, fine with that as it keeps money coming in and stops me getting bored sat in my flat at home getting fat. What's not fine is that the company are taking the rate to be used for the furlough calculation as the average wage you accrued over the last 12 months. This is not fine as we had lots of work for the most part of last year so everyone was hitting loads of overtime. This has led to the furloughed workers are going to be paid a decent amount more than those of us that are staying in work even after the 80% chop. My figures as an example would leave me £196 a month better off before you take into account the savings on commuting costs etc. One lad is going to be £200 better off just on pay plus he's saving on childcare costs and commuting, he reckons he'll be over £600 better off every month this goes on for! The bosses have realised that head office have made a massive cockup and are going to see if anything can be done about it. What really annoys me is that the lazy ones who drag out their day every day are basically being rewarded for being even lazier and sitting at home.
Somehow I don't think this was how the scheme was meant to work.
Well, I don't know what's happening at my work.
I had an inconclusive phonecall from my boss last week saying they don't need me any more, will try and keep paying me until the end of my contract in June and something mumbled about garden leave, then we got cut off. She did say they'd be calling every day to check up that I was coping OK being at home.
So I wrote all my notes up last week and sent them to her. Never had a single piece of communication from them at all then.
Haven't heard a peep from them on the phone or email this week either?
So, nothing in writing - either confirming furlough or terminating my contract.
So I've just decided to ignore it. I figure they can't really make me redundant until they do it writing, so I'm just assuming I'm getting paid. Until I don't.
But I'm acting like I won't - so, applying for jobs and cutting spending massively.
Weird, but I feel relieved. That job was bringing me down, and now I just to do DIY, play guitar and go for walks and bike rides. And it's sunny.
Does anyone know the rules of the furlough scheme?
Can employees be furloughed for say 3 weeks then brought back in to work for a couple of weeks then furloughed again.
Or once someone is furloughed is that it until the end of the corona crisis?
I don’t think anyone does, not even HMRC.
My understanding was that you could based on business need, we even looked at a rota system so you don’t get the issues above. Our auditors say that’s a no no, but I’m waiting for them to provide evidence.
When it was first announced it implied that the rebate was 80% of an employers cost ie you include employers NI and pension to get the cap, whereas it has been clarified as 80% for the employee and ers NI and pension.
A lot of the finer detail is being thrashed out was we go along.
British Airways Furloughing most staff,35.000 so a lot fewer planes going to be about,
National Express coaches cancelling all coaches from Sunday night,and most of the coaches are run by smaller companies, so going to seriously affect their cash flow aS they still need to pay insurance and lease charges for the vehicles.
Quite a few transport mags not publishing,for next few weeks or months,
Local buses and trains decimated, one large company taking 300 buses off the road, new deliveries of buses not arriving,
Hull Trains suspending all services.
Wickes,B and Q,Toolstation,Screwfix,Travis Perkins,Jewson and local builders merchants all closed down, having a major effect on us tradesmen and builders.
Banks closed,bank call centres not answering calls.
Going to be a very tough summer for a lot of us.
project - yes, diy stores and merchants have closed physical stores but all are offering click'n'collect and/or delivery; in some cases it's restricted to those who have trade a/cs.
I can't comment on your local independent merchants.
As for banks, there have been some closures but an online check will tell you which branches are open in your area and what their revised opening hours are.
Bank call centres have limited staff numbers so that, combined with massively increased call volumes, has significantly extended their response times.
I found this link very useful in understanding the furlough scheme
https://www.bdbf.co.uk/understanding-the-covid-19-job-retention-scheme/
thanks to Frank,totally aware of all you pointed out, banks are not allowing us customers in if it can be done over the phone,and theyre not answering the phones,never heard of WFH,whats the answer.
DIY sheds are only offering limited stocks, of stuff,and then only one person lifts,eg if its heavy no chance.
The suggestion on Channel4 news was that many more firms are reporting to be considering taking up the scheme than anticipated although where that can be attributed from wasn’t clear
We have a trustee who works for a multinational as head of HR. On his advice, wishing they had done this in China and across Europe, we are all having an extra weeks leave next week, fully paid.
https://www.ltl.org.uk/news/why-were-taking-the-time-out-to-rest-reflect-and-readjust-to-the-new-normal/
Its not clear at all. Martin Lewis is a good source of info. He seems to be all over this
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/
I think you have to be furloughed for 3 weeks or more. But you can do it on rotation if work is there but down on usual.
We have a trustee who works for a multinational as head of HR. On his advice, wishing they had done this in China and across Europe, we are all having an extra weeks leave next week, fully paid.
Very cool, wish more were like that.
So I started a new job, with a new firm on Monday good timing after relocation from Canada for it...
Stayed home Monday, car delivered. Stayed home Tuesday. Wednesday meet at the office to pick up laptop & IT & log it onto the network. WFH from thereon.
Keyworker status, letter issued if I have to go to a site.
I'm very very pleased to be working for them again.
project, my experience of banks is different to yours; earlier this week, something I needed to do but couldn't sort online - called but in massive queue so walked to local branch and they sorted for me.
As for DIY sheds and merchants, some are delivering - but not as quick as usual.
I take it you're self-employed.
Wickes,B and Q,Toolstation,Screwfix,Travis Perkins,Jewson and local builders merchants all closed down, having a major effect on us tradesmen and builders.
A few of the above are doing click and collect and here in the SW Bradfords builders merchants are open for the trade only, prior appointment only and are busy
Wife worked for a company who were funded by a local council. Council has been looking to shut company down, and have announced redundancies this week.
C'est la vie we thought, at least furlough will cover her until such time as the employment market wakes up again.
WRONG! Because the company is shutting down, and wife is not an employee of the council, there is no mechanism to receive furlough payments, so benefits it is...
Just one example of many I suspect of how people can slip between the cracks.
National Trust has furloughed swathes of staff over the last two days (2/3rds at our property), but will pay the 20% over and above the govt. offer. I'm still working, now taking responsibility for looking after our property, as most of the management are included in the furlough. We've had our annual pay award withdrawn, after discussions with the union, and a renewed pay offer has been put forward, focussing all increases on the lowest two grades. I'll vote for it.
No idea how long we can be supported in this way though, NT income from direct debit memberships had plummeted as well as revenue from cafe/retail etc.
My partner manages an advocacy service for people with no capacity - psychiatric wards, care homes, people with learning disabilities etc. - LA funded, statutory service. Demand has gone crazy with DNR notices being handed out without discussion, and both her and her staff have to do visits by phone. Difficult, but at least we have money coming in.
Feel for everyone who's not getting the support they need.
Just been furloughed for 3 weeks as from Monday, no top up from company, got no problem with that, without manufacturing & installations Co have been earning zero for past 10days or so.
Has anyone with a small business been notified about their £10000 payment?
Some shops in our village were notified on Tuesday and others Wednesday. We’ve not heard a peep.
Has anyone with a small business been notified about their £10000 payment?
It's already in our bank account, only after I re-read the rates letter, which basically said 'don't pay your rates' but also had a sentence 3/4 down the page that said 'email your bank account details' we did and it was paid within 24 hours. Actual process depends on local council, I'm told ours is sending out a second letter as the first wasn't clear enough.
