But it is our right to defend our largely liberal beliefs inside the UK (or Germany, France etc) when this appears unduly threatened by outside influence.
Who is this "we" of which you speak, and how does one become a part of it?
But it is our right to defend our largely liberal beliefs inside the UK (or Germany, France etc) when this appears unduly threatened by outside influence.
There is a great essay by a Polish philosopher called "The Self Poisening of the Open Society". It argues that liberalism lacks the defense mechanisms to defend itself, particularly on issues such as tolerance and free speech.
Liberalism is the West's problem. It is based on a false view of human nature (that people are basically good) and results in utopian thinking, such as multiculturalism, which doesn't actually work. And by culture I mainly mean religion, having a French wife (as suggested above) does not make one a participant in multiculturalism, as the culture of the UK and France are very similar as opposed to the culture of the UK and the Arab world.
So you're effectively saying it's anti-liberal to stick up for liberal beliefs?
Or taken to the extreme the overt promotion or protection of a liberal and tolerant society/way of life is in itself racist against people whose culture couldn't be described as liberal and tolerant?
So you're effectively saying it's anti-liberal to stick up for liberal beliefs?
Yes, essentially liberalism poisens itself over time; it contains the seeds of its own destruction.
This may have no relevance to the thread, make your own mind up.
When living in Finland a Jordanian guy came to live in the flat. He was 21 had no idea about looking after himself, couldn't cook, didn't know what a washing machine was etc. The fourth night in the flat we were chatting getting to know each other, so there was me, Mulingo a guy from Ghana the Jordanian and two friends of Mulingo who were from West Africa. We were talking about the weather how cold it was, what we did for hobbies, sport etc etc then the conversation turned to women. The Jordanian guy said that all the women he had seen since being in Joensuu were whores. Things got a bit heated with everyone being amazed at his point of view. He stuck by his guns saying that women who go to bars or nightclubs were whores and deserve no respect. The Africans just laughed at him and said he was wrong. I said pretty much the same thing even questioning why he thought that. Told him that my friends weren't whores etc etc
Forward 6 months and we didn't have a lot to do with each other over that time firendly but didn't hang out, Mulingo really didn't like him. My last night in the flat we start chatting. He now has a Finnish girlfriend and he says to me he never wants to go home, he couldn't take his girlfriend home to Jordan, he enjoyed the freedom of Finland if not the weather. I asked his if he thought all women who went to bars and nightclub were whores, he got really embarrassed and said sorry.
No idea what happened to him but he certainly changed a lot in that 6 months.
I'm guessing the problem is that many of these male immigrants are coming from countries where the treatment and rights of woman (by our standards) is shockingly backward.
I think this is the problem. Given that in the UK itself, domestic violence wasn't really treated as a crime but rather as 'a private matter' until the 1980s (and police are still criticised for their response today), a man raping his wife was legal until 1994, and you still get survey respondents saying that rape victims are partly or wholly responsible if they've been drinking, wearing particular clothes or walking alone - our own culture has thankfully progressed quickly over the last few decades, but it's not hard to see how others may still have a backwards attitude to women (and gay people, for that matter).
There are places in the world (including Europe) where women are effectively seen as property of men, where women are trafficked as sex slaves, where women have their clitoris cut off and vaginas sown up as young girls and teens so that they can't enjoy sex, where rape victims are routinely blamed by people in authority for their own assaults (even when gang raped, disembowelled and thrown from a bus), raped to punish the crimes of male relatives, or to exercise dominance in war, and gay people are arrested and executed.
You'd hope that if people move to a different country, they'd be going there because they accept its values, but it'd be naive to think that would be the case for everyone (especially when we still have plenty of homegrown assholes who treat women and gays like shit).
I don't think it's a race thing, or even a religion thing - I certainly don't think religion helps, whether it's ISIS/Boko Haram-flavoured Islam raping women as the spoils of war (which, let's not forget, is also approved of by the Old Testament), or right-wing conservatives in the US using Christianity as an excuse to control women's access to birth control and abortion. Cultural baggage and learned attitudes are hard to shed.
Norway and Denmark have mandatory lessons for immigrants on the cultural differences in regards to gender - I genuinely hope that they give them to female immigrants too, to that they know their rights. To be honest, it sounds like the sort of thing that should be taught in schools for everyone, tbh.
Education, education, education. Everyone has different stories when it comes to multiculturalism and integration.
A couple of my experiences:
The day after England beat ****stan in the cricket a few years ago, I was cycling through a park and suddenly got pelted by stones. It was a bunch of young Muslims who'd been drinking all day (I guess you could call that integration?), when I went to confront them it was lucky I was on a bike and could get away quickly, as I doubt I would have escaped without a serious kicking.
When I was teaching at a university again a few years back, we had to split the students into groups. The white female groups were always hassled by the men from a ****stani background ("stupid whore", muttered under the breath). This was not I should point out one of the UK's top unis.
The latter experience in particular is why I'm not surprised about the sexual assaults in Germany (which apparently happened across the country and not just Cologne).
It's nothing new. When I was at Grenoble Uni in 1978 a girl student from my college was groped on a couple of occasions by young men from the Maghreb and robbed once in a clever distraction trick.
I spend quite a bit of time with my Sudanese customer and his pals, all young and very devout and although they are charming, funny and hospitable people their attitudes to women are completely neanderthal and their views on religion equally restricted. It's difficult for Europeans to understand the depth of cultural repression in those societies.
Drop a few of those guys into an average European city on a Friday or Saturday night and they must think they've already arrived in Heaven.
Good post, Mrs Toast.
Drop a few of those guys into an average European city on a Friday or Saturday night and they must think they've already arrived in Heaven.
They would do well to find 77 virgins!
raping women as the spoils of war (which, let's not forget, is also approved of by the Old Testament)
Notably the Germans in Belgium, the Russians in Berlin, the Nazis... .
And let's also not forget that Christians follow the word of Christ (a Jew) who tacitly approved of the Moses code but whose message of peace a reconciliation was in contradiction with much of the Old Testament. I think you would have difficulty demonstrating Christianity approves of rape during war.
OK, now I recognise I am going way off-piste for the socialist republic of singletrackworld, but here goes: our culture is better. I wouldn't care to live outside of Western civilisation.
Wow. The bit you quoted which you are apparently agreeing with is that our culture is better in every single way. Now I have numerous issues with the way women are treated in some Islamic groups/societies - however in my experience they tend to have a far greater sense of family unity and extended family support, and while some young women may be somewhat restricted in their freedom they are also far less subject to issues around sexualisation at a young age, or problems with drink and drugs, for example.
All generalisations yes, but I think saying our culture is better in every way makes you a racist, or a xenophobe, sorry.
Also, imagine if your main exposure to western culture with little other knowledge was watching pop videos - you can see why they might consider western women as sluts. Not saying that makes it right obviously.
Good post by Mrs Toast up there ^^^^^
and while some young women may be somewhat restricted in their freedom they are also far less subject to issues around sexualisation at a young age
Erm... you're familiar with the outcomes of the Rotherham reports right? Which stated that the muslim gangs grooming white girls, weren't just grooming white girls. They were equally as happy to sexually assault young muslim girls. In fact they'd be a lot happier, as the only difference was that the muslim girls definitely wouldn't report it, because of how it would be dealt with. i.e.: victim blaming - men not being held responsible for being able to control their own base urges etc. So making even easier targets.
Personally I think its all down to religion. And not just Islam. If any religion is so repressed sexually, and refuses to acknowledge, let alone discuss sexuality openly, then this is the inevitable end result. Its exactly the same as the sexual repression within the catholic church leading directly to the endemic peodophillia that resulted from it. It just isn't healthy for human beings to have their sexuality so forcibly repressed, and sexual mores dictated to them.Especially when what is being preached is so at odds with our modern secular idea of equality.
But as Mrs Toast pointed out, you don't have to look very far, even in our supposedly enlightened society, where neanderthal attitudes towards women are still all too prevalent
Well, I didn't know this actually happened until I saw the late News last night.
My attitude is a bit Daily Mail ATM, so won't post what I was going to say.
Liberalism is the West's problem. It is based on a false view of human nature (that people are basically good)
this is so full of wrong I can't begin to figure it out. There is very strong genetic evidence to show that many many species (not just homo) understand that co-operation and kindness is an heredity and evolutionary advantage that pretty much all life on earth uses. If we're using Dawkins then you could (fairly in my opnion) lay a significant amount of blame at his door for his work The Selfish Gene, which espouses the moronic viewpoint that you have opined, that somehow we're at the mercy of our ancestry. It's bollocks.
I'm basing this on direct experience of working in Muslim communities over a number of years. There simply isn't the culture among most teenage Muslim girls of going out in highly sexualised outfits, getting drunk/taking drugs and trying to pull lads or whatever. Not saying it never happens but I'd be a lot less worried about it as the parent of a 14 year old Muslim girl than I would a 14 year old white girl. (And before anyone starts I'm NOT victim blaming).
That's not to say there aren't vulnerable Muslim girls, or that they might not be vulnerable in other ways, I'm just giving one example where you could argue 'their culture' is superior.
Another is the way extended family chip in money to help set up businesses. Again a generalisation but happens a hell of a lot from what I gather.
Again, broadly I favour western liberalism, obviously - but I can see it from the other side too. Lots of Muslim parents are horrified by the accepted levels of drink/drug abuse/sex/sexualised pop music that seems to be a big part of western culture for many teenagers. Not saying they are totally right, but they're not totally wrong either.
Grum - I lived in a predominently Muslim area for a couple of years, and I know exactly what you're saying. I admired their sense of community. But its swings and roundabouts. I also found the hypocrisy of expecting the women to adhere strictly to islamic values, while the males enforcing these codes on dress etc, would be... shall we say.... less than keen to apply these stringent islamic preachings to their own behavior.
The contradiction and flagrant double standards is pretty outrageous
Yup agreed binners
[quote=grum spake unto the masses, saying]I'm basing this on direct experience of working in Muslim communities over a number of years. There simply isn't the culture among most teenage Muslim girls of going out in highly sexualised outfits, getting drunk/taking drugs and trying to pull lads or whatever. Not saying it never happens but I'd be a lot less worried about it as the parent of a 14 year old Muslim girl than I would a 14 year old white girl. (And before anyone starts I'm NOT victim blaming).
That's not to say there aren't vulnerable Muslim girls, or that they might not be vulnerable in other ways, I'm just giving one example where you could argue 'their culture' is superior.
In what way is that "superior"? Should not girls be able to do the same as boys without negative consequences?
If they want to. Maybe they don't want to though?
And what's this 'spake unto the masses' stuff? Is that meant to be some kind of dig?
There simply isn't the culture among most teenage Muslim girls of going out in highly sexualised outfits, getting drunk/taking drugs and trying to pull lads or whatever.
The lads certainly go out and take drugs and go on the pull. This is just another example of sexism (not yours grum).
Yup also true wrecker.
Grum, of all the Muslim young(ish) people I consider friends (6 closely - 3 from the UK of ****stani origin (2 x girls, 1 x guy), 3 from and living in Egypt (all guys), all have drunk alcohol, all bar one have taken some form of recreational drugs on a reasonably regular basis. All have engaged in pre-marital sex, some quite prolifically.
Is this a bad thing? No I don't think it is. All 6 are what I'd consider grounded open minded individuals with a strong family ethic. Far better this I'd say than restricting young girls to effective house arrest until it's time to force them into an arranged, naive and possibly abusive marriage.
Some good points above.
I think one of the the thing which messes up a lot of young muslims is the extremity of the difference between their parents traditionalism and the hedonism of contemporary Western culture.
It's very hard to reconcile the two.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/10/sex-crimes-analysis-england-wales ]One in five women are victims of sexual assault in UK[/url]
Good old British values, eh?
I think sexual assault is a serious crime, and you need effective prosecution of offenders and education to tackle it more successfully. I think that's pretty straightforward.
I don't really see a clearly articulated point in all the general muttering about Islam and multiculturalism in this thread, rather a generalised fear of "the other". What, for example, does being pelted with stones by Neds in a park tell you about multiculturalism or the Cologne incident?
I've read and listened to recent reports about Cologne. It appears that there is a known problem with criminal gangs operating in the station area who mug people, sometimes using sexual harassment or assault as a distraction. There doesn't appear to be any evidence of a coordinated act of mass terrorism so far, but men gathering in the area may have taken advantage of the larger than usual crowds to commit a number of reported sexual assaults and robberies. The police may not have controlled the crowds and dealt with lawless behaviour very effectively.
Far better this I'd say than restricting young girls to effective house arrest until it's time to force them into an arranged, naive and possibly abusive marriage.
Yes because those are the only two options aren't they. 🙄
Ok fine I'm sorry - our culture is superior in EVERY way. How could I have been so silly.
Some good points above.
I think one of the the thing which messes up a lot of young muslims is the extremity of the difference between their parents traditionalism and the hedonism of contemporary Western culture.
It's very hard to reconcile the two.
Yup I'd agree with that.
What, for example, does being pelted with stones by Neds in a park tell you about multiculturalism or the Cologne incident?
It tells me there is an integration problem. This is along with talking to other people and looking at media reports (although I think a lot of the problems are generally underreported).
I think one of the the thing which messes up a lot of young muslims is the extremity of the difference between their parents traditionalism and the hedonism of contemporary Western culture.
It's very hard to reconcile the two.
I certainly don't envy them having to deal with an adolescence trying to reconcile these massively contradictory positions.
I know two muslim lads well who were both into their clubbing, with everything that entailed, had a succession of white girlfriends (with or without the knowledge of parents? Who knows?) then went on to settle down into arranged marriages, kids, Friday prayers etc. I think thats just an exaggerated form of the way everyone goes a bit mental in their youth then settles down.
I can't imagine being brought up in a very devout culture, with a very conservative view of women, then being chucked into an average western city on a Saturday night.
Mrs Binners has actually experienced something similar to the Cologne incident while in Paris with 2 female friends a few years back. They found themselves a bit off the beaten track late at night. They were soon being followed by a large group of north african looking men, who became increasingly sexually aggressive and abusive, using the language described. Unfortunately for them they'd never experienced Wigan Lasses, and when it inevitably graduated onto touching and attempted groping the almighty hoof in the conkers that the ringleader got from Mrs B's ex-army mate soon dissuaded the others for long enough for them to do a runner
She described the experience as being absolutely terrifying, and had genuinely thought she was about to be seriously sexually assaulted
We just can't put up with that kind of thing in a civilised society, I'm afraid. The liberal west has been far far too timid in confronting minorities, islam in particular, about its very engrained, misogynistic and potentially abusive, anti-liberal ideas towards women. That needs to change.
Not least because the failure to deal with it sensitively and sensibly leaves it wide open to exploitation by far right groups who are only too happy to highlight it, and their 'solutions'.
grumOk fine I'm sorry - our culture is superior in EVERY way. How could I have been so silly.
Grum, I don't think there's anything wrong, racist or xenophobic in saying you prefer one culture over another. I've never lived in an Islamic culture, but I don't think I'd want to.
No one culture is perfect, but I think in principal a culture that espouses freedom of choice and equality is better than one that subjugates others based on religion, gender or sexual preference.
The liberal west has been far far too timid in confronting minorities, islam in particular, about its very engrained, misogynistic and potentially abusive, anti-liberal ideas towards women. That needs to change.
Couldn't agree more Binners. Glad to hear the Wigan lasses put the boot in for Queen and Country too!
But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries?
Says the man in the middle of a religious civil... ceasefire, Jimjam. 😉
It tells me there is an integration problem. This is along with talking to other people and looking at media reports (although I think a lot of the problems are generally underreported).
I've had rocks chucked at me by white youths. You're making assumptions/generalisations.
We just can't put up with that kind of thing in a civilised society, I'm afraid. The liberal west has been far far too timid in confronting minorities, islam in particular, about its very engrained, misogynistic and potentially abusive, anti-liberal ideas towards women. That needs to change.
There's an element of of truth to this, but you have to very careful not to extrapolate/generalise or rely on gut instinct/subjective experience. People tend to remember negative experiences with people of another race much more than they do those of another race, to quite a massive degree.
When stuff like that happens with white youth (which it does, frequently) do you tend to extrapolate that there is a generalised problem with white young people?
But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries
Wow.
NickC writes:
There is very strong genetic evidence to show that many many species (not just homo) understand that co-operation and kindness is an heredity and evolutionary advantage that pretty much all life on earth uses. If we're using Dawkins then you could (fairly in my opnion) lay a significant amount of blame at his door for his work The Selfish Gene, which espouses the moronic viewpoint that you have opined, that somehow we're at the mercy of our ancestry. It's bollocks.
This should probably be for a new thread (people - good or bad?), and I don't want to derail this one. The funny thing about Dawkins is that his picture of the universe and human dna actually confirms quite nicely with (dare I say it) Christianity, in particular its concept of Original Sin (which I would argue was foundational to Western civilisation - St Paul and St Augustine built its foundations through saying that people are rather selfish overall, and need to repent and think less highly of themselves).
But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries
is that a trump card?
i'll get my coat....
EdukatorSays the man in the middle of a religious civil... ceasefire, Jimjam.
Yes, well (simplification aside since it's largely a political ceasefire) I'd rather the west was more secular, less theocratic.
But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries?
Yes, that would definitely stop women being sexually assaulted by men. 🙄
I've had rocks chucked at me by white youths. You're making assumptions/generalisations.
Assumedly not because ****stan had beaten England at Cricket? Maybe Man U had beaten Liverpool? Unless you present some evidence that the rocks coming your way were inspired by your race or your culture then we must assume that your assumptions about his alleged assumptions are simply moral relativism?
I too (as a boy) was pelted by foreign boys (I was from a neighbouring village). They lobbed stones at me while I was climbing a tree. One half-brick hurt so hard I fell out of the tree. i managed to get on my Puch Pacemaker and make an escape, yet not without one of the bastards denting the rear mudguard with a lucky shot. That mudguard served as a reminder to me that humans can be tribal and cowardly little shits. Unfortunately we don't always see it in ourselves when we ourselves are busy 'throwing stones'.
Right, I've been reading this thread since yesterday and not yet commented. There are some generalisations going on in this thread, about muslims and about non-muslim women.
Firstly, it's a generalisation that Western women like to go out and take drugs, get drunk, like sexualised pop music, and wear sexualised outfits. Some women do, but a lot of us don't- you just don't see us because we're not out in clubs and bars.
Secondly, I spent a few weeks in an outwardly conservative country with an Islamic government that strictly enforces the way people dress, and alcohol and pop music are banned. However, when you look under the surface, plenty of them have pre-marital sex, drink alcohol and listen to pop music. They just do it in secret to avoid being thrown in prison. I also know some muslim families who are conservative both outwardly, and in the privacy of their own home, so you can't generalise.
I didn't notice anyone respnd to what hels said a few pages ago, but some people here seem to be automatically assuming that the women in Cologne were either making it up or were to blame.
Yes, that would definitely stop women being sexually assaulted by men.
A Wow! and a 🙄
If you read my posts above, you will find that I am far from Utopian. My main point remains: there are massive issues with Muslim integration in the West, it would be politically prudent to limit if not stop immigration from Muslim countries. The West also has issues, and they won't be resolved anytime soon.
People tend to remember negative experiences with people of another race much more than they do those of another race, to quite a massive degree.
Grum I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why multiculturalism doesn't work.
Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.
Grum, I don't think there's anything wrong, racist or xenophobic in saying you prefer one culture over another.
It's when it's used to justify the invasion, colonisation and exploitation of other countries that it's a problem. At the root of the British Empire is/was a dangerous sense of superiority.
And it wasn't so long ago that the Welsh, Scottish and Irish were the targets - a threat to 'British values'. Read the newspapers from 150 years ago and you'll find similar descriptions - barbaric, savages, ill educated, violent, sexually profligate etc
My main point remains: there are massive issues with Muslim integration in the West, it would be politically prudent to limit if not stop immigration from Muslim countries. The West also has issues, and they won't be resolved anytime soon.
My point is that separate issues are being conflated because they conveniently support prejudice. There is one common factor regarding the sexual assault of women, and it ain't religion.
The problem is no-one will recognise there is a problem. Or they will mislabel it as our problem (we are all racists after all).
Malmo in Sweden has had this problem for years but nobody cares to talk about it.
And does anyone remember Rochdale?
But you don't need to go after a community, just the perpetrators. There's nothing remotely racist or xenophobic about that. I fear it is beyond the capabilities of the police in may cases, and the fact that in Rochdale many of the victims were not taken seriously may also have played a part.
Ostracising an entire community on the basis of its criminal elements is, however, massively racist and will exacerbate the problem (not that I'm suggesting this is what you are calling for).
Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.
Again. There is much research demonstrating that this view is just not true, but TBH I get the feeling that that doesn't fit your world view, so it seems a pointless to keep pointing this out to you as you're unlikely to want to hear it I suspect.
Firstly, it's a generalisation that Western women like to go out and take drugs, get drunk, like sexualised pop music, and wear sexualised outfits. Some women do, but a lot of us don't- you just don't see us because we're not out in clubs and bars.
Someone's clearly never been to Burnley. 😛
But no, obviously it is a generalisation.
some people here seem to be automatically assuming that the women in Cologne were either making it up or were to blame.
Where has anyone said that?
My point is that separate issues are being conflated because they conveniently support prejudice. There is one common factor regarding the sexual assault of women, and it ain't religion.
This.
