Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict
Oh ye gods that just reminded me - a member of my family once made this argument by claiming that black lambs are customarily shunned by white lambs - 'it's just nature'.
'Mixing up the races'!
It's fortunate that keeping foreigners out and preserving racial 'purity' never caused tribalism or much trouble then... 😯
If what you say is true then 'multicultural'/cosmopolitan' London must be an actual war zone today. Unlike racially pure countries such as, er...
Oi, Burnleyist!
Grum I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why multiculturalism doesn't work.Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.
Or you could just try and recognise your cognitive biases and not let them control you - rather than just accepting being an illogical racist?
If what you say is true then 'multicultural'/cosmopolitan' London must be an actual war zone today. Unlike racially pure countries such as, er...
Yugoslavia was a peaceful nation. Then all hell broke loose along ethnic/tribal divisions.
Weve had 20 years of mass immigration into the UK now. Immigration is the biggest concern of UK voters. I don't see why saying "let's just cool it for a while" is so controversial. 8)
Assumedly not because ****stan had beaten England at Cricket? Maybe Man U had beaten Liverpool? Unless you present some evidence that the rocks coming your way were inspired by your race or your culture then we must assume that your assumptions about his alleged assumptions are simply moral relativism?
Nowhere in his post does it say that the youths said anything about the cricket game or that the two things were linked - sounds like he just made that assumption.
Or you could just try and recognise your cognitive biases and not let them control you - rather than just accepting being an illogical racist?
As the saying goes, I have lots of black/indian/muslim/jewish friends. I don't consider myself to be a racist, but I do think that race matters to many people, hence why races tend to live in the same areas, marry people from the same race etc. I think to ignore this is politically dangerous.
Anyhow, as someone said on another thread, life's too short, so I'm off on my bike.
According to the news just now - up to 1000 men involved.. what?!
How would they even go about arranging such acts and get agreement that it's a great idea from 1000 men. Can't get my head around this at all.
I stay within 5 minutes of the Hauptbahnhoff regularly. Not saying this is the case, but just under the bridges there is a large community that matches the descriptions I've heard of the gangs, so it could have been literally word on the street (it's where I go shopping to avoid mini bar prices :-))
That said, I've never seen the supposed problem with pick pockets etc. and I've been there all hours. Probably don't look worth the bother 😀
If they want to. Maybe they don't want to though?
Maybe, but I don't see why they would be different from local girls.
And what's this 'spake unto the masses' stuff? Is that meant to be some kind of dig?
Not at all, just a silly thing from playing around with the Chrome blocker thingy
well you think "our" culture is superior to other so you must think their way of live/values/attitudes are inferior to "ours"have lots of black/indian/muslim/jewish friends. I don't consider myself to be a racist,
It follows that you think you are better than them and they are worse than you. If it is not racism then what do your call your western cultural supremacist view?
well the ones you know do it. Amazing is it it you meet people who are doing the same things as you. I wonder if that is whY o know so many cyclists?Not suggesting you spend your time doing this but obviously we are more likely to meet the ones doing what we are doing, SOme do this some dont just like white folks.The lads certainly go out and take drugs and go on the pull.
You do realise this country has always been mixed races/tribe. england is from the german, the celts/picts were natives, the vikings settled. American is a nation built on immigration. Its just BS to say we cannot live side by side in peace because we have incidents like this. MIllions of us live side y side every single day without any real problem. Those of you who oppose it need to wake up as millions of folk will never be sent home - most of them are brin "here" now anyway so multiculturalism cannot be put back int he bx. Its a global community these days and you need to learn to embrace t rather tyhan sjout at the tide Canute styleI think you've hit the nail on the head as to why multiculturalism doesn't work.Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.
well it was a federal republic where these nations always existed but it was controlled by the authoritarian dictator and split after he died. It says more about the repression of people than tribalism per se. Also czechoslovakia split amicable east germany re united easily and the Irish and british cannot share an island peacefully. Examples abound for either position here and its simplistc explanation of the former Yugoslavia's problems.Yugoslavia was a peaceful nation. Then all hell broke loose along ethnic/tribal divisions.
well you think "our" culture is superior to other so you must think their way of live/values/attitudes are inferior to "ours"
It follows that you think you are better than them and they are worse than you. If it is not racism then what do your call your western cultural supremacist view?
It doesn't actually. At no point did I say a certain race was superior. I said western civilisation is superior, and I would put that down to a number of almost accidental historical events (especially the rise of Christianity).
You do realise this country has always been mixed races/tribe. england is from the german, the celts/picts were natives, the vikings settled. American is a nation built on immigration.
Yes I realise that. Americans tended to have one thing in common: religion. The same went for Britain after the conversion to Christianity.
Those of you who oppose it need to wake up as millions of folk will never be sent home - most of them are brin "here" now anyway so multiculturalism cannot be put back int he bx. Its a global community these days and you need to learn to embrace t rather tyhan sjout at the tide Canute style
I'm not arguing for repatriation. I'm arguing for an end to mass immigration so things can settle down (hopefully) over time. And I see no reason why I should just "accept" global neo-liberalism.
I read a report from one man that he was walking with his 15 year old daughter and partner when surrounded by a group of over 30 men who groped his daughter and partners breasts and between the legs.
I couldn't even imagine how I would feel in such a situation.
More worrying than that such behaviour went on was despite such behaviour went on and the police were inundated with such reports was that the police submitted a report afterwards saying that it was a quiet night.
And more worrying again was the female mayor suggesting woman should not encourage such behaviour by changing their behaviour.
At no point did I say a certain race was superior.
at no point did i claim you did. Any chance you would answer the question?
we are better than them is your view so what do you call this cultural superiority world view if not racists?
I'm not arguing for repatriation. I'm arguing for an end to mass immigration so things can settle down (hopefully) over time
Best of luck with that one Donald
well the ones you know do it. Amazing is it it you meet people who are doing the same things as you. I wonder if that is whY o know so many cyclists?Not suggesting you spend your time doing this but obviously we are more likely to meet the ones doing what we are doing, SOme do this some dont just like white folks.
Strange. You are quite happy to accept Grums view that all of the girls are angels, yet jump on me for suggesting that the boys aren't.
Agenda?
I'm arguing for an end to mass immigration so things can settle down
Good luck with that 😕 its been happening since we left Africa a few hundred thousand years ago.
You fail to understand that culture and society is dynamic, changes sweep through at different rates, buy they are inevitable
Trying to cling on to a rose tinted view of how we once were, will only make integration less likely,
Trying to make out that Christianity has made the west somehow superior is ridiculous, its only since we shed the ridiculous indoctrinations of the church that our society has improved, yet still it holds us back, see sexual equality, gay marriage, abortion etc etc
Trying to make out that Christianity has made the west somehow superior is ridiculous, its only since we shed the ridiculous indoctrinations of the church that our society has improved, yet still it holds us back, see sexual equality, gay marriage, abortion etc etc
🙄 (Im sorry, it must be catching).
Christianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation, such things like human rights and the importance of the individual have not cropped up in other civilisations for that very reason. I'd recommend you read "Inventing the Individual" by Larry Siedentop an Oxford professor to find more clarity on this issue.
My anecdote - I was at my local hair styling establishment having my hair cut by a new guy of middle-eastern origin. He was interested that I have travelled to quite a few Gulf countries, and when I mentioned that I liked Oman best his response was nothing about the scenery or architecture, he said "Have you ever f***ed an Omani girl?" When I replied in the negative, he responded "Arab girls are hot, man, not like British".
My conclusion was that dickheads come in all colours, and that people of all colour like sex. Revolutionary, I know.
Christianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation, such things like human rights and the importance of the individual have not cropped up in other civilisations for that very reason.
Can you see anything with those blinkeres on ?
The old testament justifies slavery, treated women and children as property and so, its legacy still haunts or society, it wasn't until the scientific method and the enlightenment came along that we manage to start shaking off the mediaeval mentality
Why not Google the Cyrus Cylinder and if you want to talk about a real bedrock look at the concept of citizenship in ancient greece
badnewzChristianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation,
No. Western Civilisation was/is mainly Christian. These are not the same things. Christianity didn't lay the bedrock of anything, developments in science and technology laid the bedrock of Western Civilaisation. The old counter that most great scientists of the last however many hundred years were christian is a bullshit misnomer since most people were/are from Christian backgrounds.
@Rusty, I'd be delighted to come up and discuss the issue face to face, go,for a ride and have a beer. My wife is always a bit perplexed when I go off riding with people I "met on the internet", perhaps I won't mention JY is coming along too 😉
@Mrs Toast thanks from me for your contribution
The cultural issues we face with different communties here in the UK are [b]nothing[/b] to those which Germany faces with this huge influx of people many of whom have expectations of being able to stay permanently. Approx 40% of the 1.1m asylum seekers currently in Germany are from the Blakans, many where born in Germany after the last wave of refugees but have to mive backmout as you have no right to remain even if you are born there (unlike France or indeed US where birth automatically gives you citizenship). They have been told they cannot remain and Germany has stated Afghanistan is a safe country and citizens from there will not be granted asylum. The scope for conflict is huge.
As for religious conservatisim meaning modest dress and no sex before marriage there are many Chritians who chose to live like that, its not unique to Islam.
@binners a serious topic overall but big smiles for the Paris story.
On cultural integration my wife and I have found quite a few issues where we differ, that's between a francophile Brit and a Parisiennee who has worked for American companies for 10+ years and lived in New York. My point is even between two very similar cultures some quite marked differences exist.
Der Spiegel and Bild have extracts of a police report (reported in the Telegrapgh) with quotes from Syrian refugees mocking the Police. It also states there where attacks in Hamburg, Frankfurt and Stuttgart
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12086473/Suspects-in-Cologne-sex-attacks-claimed-to-be-Syrian-refugees.html ]Telegrapgh[/url]
Strange. You are quite happy to accept Grums view that all of the girls are angels, yet jump on me for suggesting that the boys aren't.
Agenda?
Strange you declined to comment on the massively controversial point that we meet folk who do the same things that we do. It was not an attack and it was self evidently true.
Its obvious some muslims live like westerners and some westerners live like Muslims. I often joke with my mate [ due to my clean lifestyle] that i am better Muslim than he is.
slavery, non mass voting, imperialist expansionism to tame the savge, imprisoning homosexuals and a ruler anointed by God. Yes that is what made us what we are todayChristianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation,
Again it depends what you pick. Most of our advancements , IMHO, arise form ignoring the bible teachings and embracing science and enlightenment. Alos the greeks said a thing or two about democracy and philosophy and the arabs about maths and science.
@kimbers and @jimjam, you would be hard pressed to find a respected professionally trained historian who would disagree with the statement that Christianity is foundational to Western civilisation.
And @kimbers you should recall Christianity is based on the New Testament more than it is the Old.
@Junkyard the reason you think Christianity has had periods of injustice is down to the fact that you have a moral ethical system based on Christianity in the first place, e.g. persecution of minorities is wrong, I'd agree with this, but non-Christian cultures would not necessarily subscribe.
"Imperial" Christianity was at root anti-Christian - this is what happens when politics and power structures pollutes religion. It does not in itself disprove the validity of Christian moral ethics, which I think are rather commendable.
@kimbers and @jimjam, you would be hard pressed to find a respected professionally trained historian who would disagree with the statement that Christianity is foundational to Western civilisation.
as they would agree that Greek civilisation and some of the idea started there were.
And @kimbers you should recall Christianity is based on the New Testament more than it is the Old.
Whilst it did create a new covenant that statement lies somewhere between misleading as its very simplistic- not meant as a dig to be clear.
JC did not repeal that much of the OT that i recall Lex talionis being one but not a great deal more. He certainly did not get rid of the ten commandments nor the preaching on homosexuality or women folk.
I do agree the tone of the NT is pretty good and JC was a decent guy where as the OT Is much more fire and brimstone vengeful god.
So you want to kill homosexuals and stone to death adulterers?It does not in itself disprove the validity of Christian moral ethics, which I think are rather commendable.
There are lots and lots of dodgy moral teaching in the bible ranging from treatment of h brothers wifes to taking prostitutes.
Those who argue as you do seem to ignore this sort of thing
"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Awesome moral code there
JC did not repeal that much of the OT that i recall Lex talionis being one but not a great deal more. He certainly did not get rid of the ten commandments nor the preaching on homosexuality or women folk.
This is really important and a good point to discuss. Jesus said he had come to fulfil the law, not to overturn it.
But he does radically change the law in the sermon on the mount, e.g. "You have heard it said, but...no longer an eye for an eye but love your enemy".
The so called golden rule is approached in Judaism and Islam but I don't think it is ever voiced as clearly as it is in the NT.
I agree about the foundational importance of Greek platonic philosophy too to Western civ.
Bloody hell this is almost like a reasonable discussion. WTF!
It i sworth reading the NT and there are some great parable in there
I always like the parable of the sower as it explains how socio economic factors can influence your outcomes in life 😉
LOt of good in what JC said and hard to disagree with most of it,
OT is very outdated and, frankly , bonkers in parts.
Islam has rules about living side by side with people of the faiths. I am not sure what their teachings are on the "enemy" but I will ask my mates.
Strange you declined to comment on the massively controversial point that we meet folk who do the same things that we do.
It wasn't really worthy of comment, but I think you know that 😀
[url= http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/police-issue-report-on-new-years-eve-violence-in-cologne-fotostrecke-133443-6.html ]Der Spiegel photos with comments in English[/url]
FlouncesIt wasn't really worthy of comment, but I think you know that
Nice put down though 😆
No put down junky!
I'm happily married and I don't take drugs as I'm sure you know (or at least suspect)
I found your comment odd in the least.
I've now read the Spiegel reports. The police have 121 complaints but only four suspects in custody. Two North Africans pick pockets and two men of unstated origin who sexually aggressed women.
Jambalaya. Someone claiming to be Syrian took the Micky out of the police saying he could tear up his immigration papers and get new ones the next day. In other words he knew how easy it was to invent a new identity and was prepared to mock the system, which to me suggests he may be a false Syrian immigrant of which there are a lot according to earlier German media reports. The police didn't recover the documents.
I suggest going direct to Der Spiegel and using Babble Fish if you don't speak German - it'll still be closer to the original than the Guardian or Times.
If I'm ever put on trial for a crime, I hope the jury is made up of Singletrack forum members. I know that 1) they will scrutinise the evidence in great detail and 2) they will never agree (meaning I get off scott-free if I'm guilty) 8)
I'm happily married and I don't take drugs as I'm sure you know (or at least suspect)
I found your comment odd in the least.
I apologise for the way that read what I mean to say was that of course we , living as westerners and not hanging out down the mosque, will meet the westernised ones more than the devout ones.
It wasn't my intention to suggest in any way that you were a drug taking philander and I apologise unreservedly for it being taken that way.
It was not well worded on my part.
Again it depends what you pick. Most of our advancements , IMHO, arise form ignoring the bible teachings and embracing science and enlightenment.
On this point, the Islamic world was making great advances in science and maths, 500 years before the enlightenment.
It wasn't my intention to suggest in any way that you were a drug taking philander and I apologise unreservedly for it being taken that way.
No worries! It's all good!
Great to see everyone discussing this in a sensible manner, I was half expecting to see this thread closed by this morning.
I need to have a proper read through the thread - so far I've really liked some of the posts, lot's of good insights for me to think about!
It was but it peaked then and has not moved forward [at the same rate] making it look like it has moved backwards.the Islamic world was making great advances in science and maths, 500 years before the enlightenment.
American is a nation built on immigration. Its just BS to say we cannot live side by side in peace
But, in order to do so, didn't they first have to genocide the Native American Indian tribes with war, smallpox, guns & alcohol?
Junkyard
the Islamic world was making great advances in science and maths, 500 years before the enlightenment.
It was but it peaked then and has not moved forward [at the same rate] making it look like it has moved backwards.
Peaked is one way to say it. Smashed back to the stoneage by the mongols and the crusaders (who took much of what they learned back to europe) is another.
that is christian morality for you 😉But, in order to do so, didn't they first have to genocide the Native American Indian tribes with war, smallpox, guns & alcohol?
Good point well made. I have no counter.EDIT and the post above
that is christian morality for you
Good point well made. I have no counter.EDIT and the post above
Also, I have a lot of friends in the US.
The US currently has a polarized climate of shrieking entitled Social Justice Warriors who blame white people for everything wrong with in their personal lives and reactionary racist bigots with guns and the will to use them.
It's not a great country to highlight as a bastion of multiculturalism, the USA is a great example of plural monoculturalism.
Americans don't seem to like each other very much these days. They fundamentally disagree on so many issues it is hard to see where the common ground is.
Whether the culture war will turn into something bigger is difficult to say. It will definitely affect the presidential polls, although I expect Clinton to win, I think Trump (my namesake) will do far better than many expect.
Some people like to attribute everything bad that is, or has been, done by Westerners to Christianity. I don't deny that bad things have been done by so-called Christians but blaming everything bad on Christian culture whilst at the same time claiming that we are a secular country where hardly anyone is an active Christian is just laughable.
It's like some atheists are desperate to have the moral high ground.
It is almost too obvious to say that there is good and bad amongst Christians, among Muslims, and even amongst atheists.
The need for religion is a consequence of our flawed human nature.
Addressing that issue takes actual thought.
🙂
I agree. I'd also ask the question: where do we get our sense of right and wrong from?
I think we get it from the moral commandments as relayed from Judaism (with some revision) to what was Pagan Europe via Christianity.
Many athiests use the moral ethical system of Christianity to criticise the religion itself, e.g. how Christians have used religious and political persecution, but surely we wouldn't think persecution was such a bad thing were it not for the ethical system as laid out in the Sermon on the Mount.
And at root Christianity does say that people are sinners, so it can hardly be surprising that as soon as a religion gets mixed up with human beings, things start to go wrong.
("Bonkers Badnewz warning")
But then there is a separate history, the history of sainthood - people like William Wilberforce, who understood more clearly the Christian message and undertook to abolish the slave trade.
In conclusion, like it or not, we are the products of post-Enlightenment Christianity.
where do we get our sense of right and wrong from?
I think we get it from the moral commandments as relayed from Judaism (with some revision) to what was Pagan Europe via Christianity.
So before Christianity came to pagan Europe nobody knew right from wrong??!?!?
Do you have a shred of proof for this assumption?
