The general media coverage of this is just unhinged..
Or rather bordering on illegal.. Inciting racial hatred etc
But yeah, perhaps the media coverage is part of the conditioning we are being subjected to to prepare us for a shift in European policy during the next year..
There is however a more paranoid part of me that fears we could be being conditioned for something more sinister
One of the main things the German channels are talking about is that the police reported a quiet night with no serious problems and hushed it all up for several days. I watch German TV every day and first saw reports this morning.
I've not read the reports fully but I gather they took place in public places like stations? In which case there should be some CCTV to establish what happened.
I have to say my immediate reaction was whether the claimed attacks were genuine or right wing scare mongering. Not sure what this says about my level of cynicism and the modern world.
To back up and add to my point in regards to the above
You can count out right-wing scare mongering. There are too many concordant witness reports, numbers arrested are in the 40-50 range depending on source, and yes, there's footage from lots of sources.
[url= http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/koeln-ich-habe-noch-nie-so-viele-heulende-maedchen-gesehen-1.2806316 ]This from a female social worker is typical[/url]
"North African and Arab looking"
"Speaking foreign languges except to insult women"
"Not refugees in transit"
"Insulting and grabbing at women"
"Slut and whore" shouldn't upset the STW swear filter;
"Very large numbers"
"no criticism of police present who were simply too outnumbered"
"lots of crying womem"
"men trying to look after their female friends"
Wat media hysteria misrepresentation and overblown hyperbole are indeed indicatove of the malaise that is the free [ right wing] pressthe actual existence of the reports that are being published are indicative of a deeper malaise.
the current political discourse seems to be that our way of life is under threat. Incidents like the one that happened in Cologne do not help to counter this view
Have you considered being a leader writer for some tabloid publication
Your tone of reasoned measures considered hysteria is exactly how they pitch it
GET A GRIP
HTH
So the BBC and The Guardian are now spreading right wing, racist propaganda? 🙄
Have you considered being a leader writer for some tabloid publication
Your tone of reasoned measures considered hysteria is exactly how they pitch itGET A GRIP
HTH
I was going to try to keep this respectful, but you are deluded if you think that we or more specifically continental Europe aren't in need of a centerist response to the far right.
If you hadn't noticed, I never mentioned Britain 😉 Continental Europe is the main worry - politically speaking.
Accepting refugees is good but it is not incompatible with 'refugee influx results in cultural clashes that require attention'. The migration boat, as you quite rightly pointed out - has already sailed, ethically and legally we can't kick people out and there would be no point. Unfortunately that boat hit an iceberg and sunk.
the current political discourse seems to be that our way of life is under threat.
Maybe it is under threat.
If you hadn't noticed, I never mentioned Britain Continental Europe is the main worry - politically speaking.
There is a temptation for us Brits to think, hard luck Europe.
But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Germany or France deciding to give all their troublemakers EU passports, meaning many will be able to enter the UK.
If we vote to get out the EU we might be able to save ourselves, but I don't see if happening unfortunately.
Also, wasn't it in Cologne where the cathedral turned out its lights in disgust at the Pegida marches?
I've no idea what's happened to Protestantism, it seems to be the same thing as liberalism.
Islam and Christianity have not been the best of friends over the years after all.
But nature abhors a vacuum, and I expect Islam to fill the religious void in Europe in a hundred years time, as its people, institutions, and Christianity dies.
I will end with perhaps the most defeatist statement possible: at least I won't be around to see it.
Any descriptions of the culprits not just skin colour ? Any suspects identified ? Any arrests ? CCTV imagery given such a large number of people at a railway station ? Did CCTV operators notify Police of gangs of 50-60 people moving in on women ? In fact any facts at all ?
Immigrants never do any wrong
Dark skinned never do any wrong
Ethnic cultures different to our own never do any wrong
It's all propaganda
Sod off - as British people, we have values - some of our own indigenous residents have no regard for these values because they are bellends, however....
The 'persecuted' minorities that are flooding our/Europes borders simply haven't been brought up with these values, or are aware of them and choose to ignore them. I'm not comfortable with hordes of migrant men who don't understand, or have no respect for our values, or for that, our laws. They shouldn't have to be integrated - if I go to any other country, I'm expected to abide by their laws - in many instances, I'll be banged up in jail for a long time if I don't.
Apologists, you take the moral high ground, but let's see where that gets us in a few decades. I quite like the British way of life - I couldn't care less what the colour of your skin, or religion is, just don't be a dick if you come here please and we will get on fine!
These 1000 or so youths should be brought to justice and its obviously a huge failure of the police, but Germany has >10 million immigrant population, trying to extrapolate their behaviour into some kind of fall of western Europe to the infidels is laughable!
[i]Did CCTV operators notify Police of gangs of 50-60 people moving in on women [/i]
According to the news just now - up to 1000 men involved.. what?!
How would they even go about arranging such acts and get agreement that it's a great idea from 1000 men. Can't get my head around this at all.
Actually Junkyard, if we use your reasoning - ie look at the people who gain from this, we find that;
1) The far right gains from it.
2) ISIS gains from it.
The far right do not have moles in the BBC and Guardian editorial teams. ISIS however have stated that their intention is to create division within Europe. After the Paris attacks, the French managed to shrug it off and reject Marine Le Pen through tactical voting - despite her rise in popularity. The political discourse was that these were the actions of a minority of deluded muslims, who don't represent the faith. Well, how would you, as a member of ISIS challenge this notion? By sowing seeds through social media and mass communication, that leads to mass unrest such as that which has been reported in Cologne. It's the London riots (social unrest via social media) gone a bit rapey.
Say hello to a new type of terrorism ladies and gentlemen and welcome to 2016. Have a happy new year.
Penguin Party, Dez?
TAFKASTR - I work with loads of immigrants, care work, innit?
They seem to hold 'Traditional British Values' in much higher regard than many of those whose families have lived here for generations.
We take our tolerance and understanding for granted.
They don't seem to.
I can take you to a church full of Zimbabwean ex pats who thank God, regularly and very, very loudly that they live in the UK.
I have been following this story for a few days now, I didn't start a thread as I felt the usual suspects would just turn it into a discussion of yours truely. Even so I struggle to comprehend some posts above speaking of "false flags" and "no evidence". There have already been 120 crime reports to the police and given the cover up by German media amd Police its hardly surprising they have released no CCTV
The lack of reporting in Germany is political correctness gone totally mad. The lead German state broadcaster has issued an apology for covering up the story for 5 days. 1,000 maurauding men groping women on the breats and between the legs and rape and they report NOTHING ? As for Merkel's statement that you cannot infer the attackers are immigrants/asylum seekers, really ! So how come Germany hasn't been plagued by such mass attacks before ? Reports in press that [b]all[/b] those aksed for ID had temporary asylum seekers documents.
There was a huge cultural divide in evidence in Cologne, the culprits quite simply will not understand that they cannot do this. For them it is an absolutely normal and acceptable reaction to what they see is Western depravity.
Germany stands on the edge of an abyss of Merkel's making. No more, no,less.
TAFKASTR - I work with loads of immigrants, care work, innit?Without exception, they seem to hold 'Traditional British Values' in much higher regard than many of those whose families have lived here for generations.
We take our tolerance for granted.
They don't.
I've worked with loads of immigrants too - and for the majority they have been great guys. My post may have come across slightly off cue (I'm Pissed), but I just cannot bear the denial of left wing apologists, who seem to deny that cultural differences in social attitude can be a big problem - and they will argue this point as though it doesn't exist. It does!
Neither can I mate.
I'm as lefty as they come, but I'm a moral and ethical absolutist.
I'm as lefty as they come, but I'm a moral and ethical absolutist.
Yet lefties are the ones drowning in moral relativism? Does this mean that yours is a case of mistaken self-identity?
of course they can what we have got to try to do is be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Worrying that out way of life is under threat is to become part of the problem.cultural differences in social attitude can be a big problem
There are 6 billion of us and we wont all get on.
Kimbers +1
And whoever mentioned it, yes I do remember Rochdale - and despite what the tabloids claimed there was no evidence that 'political correctness' or fear of being labelled racist was a key factor (or indeed really a factor at all) in the failure to investigate properly, and there have been numerous white paedophile gangs who also haven't been investigated properly. That's not to say there isn't an issue of grooming/sexual abuse etc amongst certain groups but there's some gigantic generalisations and ridiculous doom-mongering being done here, unsurprisingly.
I'm left wing, and I recognise that differences in social attitudes can be a problem. It's something I face in some of my work quite regularly. People from rural ****stan (for example) do have very different attitudes and standards to us about all sorts of things. However, making massive generalisations and assuming that our culture is always better in every way is hardly very helpful.
It's not always better, but it often is grum.
Otherwise you undermine feminism and a whole host of clearly or even empirically better viewpoints with a lot of post-modernist bollocks.
Worrying that out way of life is under threat is to become part of the problem.
You won't placate people by telling them to stop worrying, you can never convince people over to your side - they simply know what they feel. Just as propaganda never converts people, it simply reinforces what people already think they know.
The center needs to create a narrative that brings those people back, like it or not - you live in a democracy Junkyard and peoples intuition, whether it is right or wrong, affects political outcomes.
Yes, MR, to a certain extent.
The issues we face are forcing people to actually think about what we hold dear.
The lazy, ignorant, acceptance of easily digested, one size fits all dogma is dangerous and counterproductive.
I resisted mentioning Rochdale but I did post of Politcial Correctness in Germany. Absolutely the majority of sex abusers in the UK are white anglo saxon males, born and bred in the UK. What happened in Rochdale however is almost unprecidented in terms of scale (in my view) and we will only know the truth after all the trials and investigations.
JY if we haven't really got a grip on integration and multi culturalism in our society it would seem a good idea to "call time" for a bit until we do. No we aren't all going to get along all the time, however mass sexual assualt by those who have been welcomed into a new country is beyond the pale.
Jambs, no offence, but you're not helping.
If you'd like to come up we'd be happy to put you up and introduce you to many people from various communities who are trying to find out what the hell has happened to that town.
It's so complicated that even discussing it on a forum seems crass.
Genuine invite.
Bring your bike, the riding, the place and the vast majority of people are lovely.
I will nip round as well and we promise greggs and any pastry you choose 😉
probably why no has suggested what may have happened / did happen / is being described "excitedly" is anything other than bad. It is however not a threat to multiculturalism or the end of/ threat to our way of life anymore than some rowdy football fans rioting is.however mass sexual assualt by those who have been welcomed into a new country is beyond the pale.
As for calling time on multiculturalism for a bit may I I wish you and your French wife well in this 😉
Of course some cultures will clash and some more than others be it the EDL or the anti Nazi league or football fans or mods v rockers or punks and skinheads. All of these threats were real but did not signal the end of anything. Lets keep some perspective here.
My old man was at Cable Street.
A 20 year old atheist Catholic defending the rights of Jews to be as British as he was.
Even though his dad was Irish and his mum French.
Plus ca change.
God, I love this country sometimes.
Good to see you're a bit less outraged about my and some others opinions JY.
At the end of the day, most of us here like progressive values mate. Don't suspect people of having the most base motivations behind their posts, my wifes not white - we've put up with a fair amount of crap. So I don't have any ulterior motives - it's just that existing minorities end up suffering from blowback from these kinds of events.
Most of the people here just differ in regards to how this should be dealt with, you lot are actually a pretty balanced nice bunch - no matter what side of the political spectrum you are from.
I'm guessing the problem is that many of these male immigrants are coming from countries where the treatment and rights of woman (by our standards) is shockingly backward. It's not racist to say that, just a sad and unfortunate fact that sexual assault and abuse seems more tolerated in certain cultures.
Speaking from personal experience in Egypt, a blonde female friend of mine was repeatedly hit upon in an aggressive and sleazy fashion by the local men in a bar frequented by tourists, at the same time as I'm stood next to her trying to have a conversation. We left pretty sharpish after 1/2 hr when it all got too much and after an attempted 'touch up' by a particularly unsavory and persistent suitor.
We did meet a lot of genuinely lovely Egyptians too, but it's still worrying that the above could take place so publicly.
DezB - MemberAccording to the news just now - up to 1000 men involved.. what?!
How would they even go about arranging such acts and get agreement that it's a great idea from 1000 men. Can't get my head around this at all.
The "1000 men" thing [i]seems[/i] to source from this article
http://www.ksta.de/koeln/polizei-koeln-spricht-von-80-opfern-sote,15187530,33056908.html
My german's not so good but I don't think it actually says there were a 1000 men involved- I read it that the attackers came from a group of 1000 men, not that there were a group of 1000 attackers. Later in the article it says that smaller groups had attacked women which seems to confirm that. (the larger group still seem to have been a bunch of arseholes mind)
So I could be wrong but I suspect that part's going to come down to a mistranslation, and now all the news sources are effectively quoting each other. Not that this is good; but it's better than gangs of 1000 men
"Mehr als 1000 Männer gehörten zu der Gruppe, aus der heraus die Taten begangen wurden."- more than 1000 men belonged to the group, from which the attacks were carried out"
but then later
"Die Gruppe wuchs auf mehr als 1000 an. Gegen 0.15 Uhr sperrte die Polizei den Bahnhofsvorplatz und die Treppen. Erst nach und nach gab es in der Nacht erste Hinweise, dass kleinere Gruppen Frauen angegriffen hätten."
"The group was about 1000 men, and at 12.15 the station was closed. Then by and by it was found that smaller groups had attacked women"
Yes I had to look some of that up 😆
Well if that's the case NW, I'm never trusting the Graun or the Independent again.
not really outraged at all. Basically we all agree cultures can clash and that the incident is bad but where i draw the line is in portraying any group as a threat to us all/ the bogeyman. Agree this place doea not tolerate racism and not a party political point.Good to see you're a bit less outraged about my and some others opinions JY.
For all the social justice fanatics here on Single Track I'll quote quote Richard Dawkins "Soft bigotry of low expectations." Holding other races to a lower standard (e.g. excusing misogyny & homophobia) is itself a form of racism ..
Yeah, Richard Dawkins is a great person to trot out when you want a reasonable and balanced discussion about Muslims. 🙄
How do (or should) his views on Islam differ from his views on Christianity or Judaism?
He describes it as a 'one of the great evils of the world' and says its worse than christianity.
http://freethoughtnation.com/richard-dawkins-islam-is-one-of-the-great-evils-of-the-world/
TBH he comes out with all sorts of rubbish these days:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/09/is-richard-dawkins-destroying-his-reputation
I always thought his interpretation was based on current circumstance?
All the Abrahamic religions have been through periods of fundamentalism and reform, often encompassing both points of view simultaneously in different geographical locations.
For all the social justice fanatics here on Single Track I'll quote quote Richard Dawkins "Soft bigotry of low expectations." Holding other races to a lower standard (e.g. excusing misogyny & homophobia) is itself a form of racism ..
And yet when Israel is held to normal western standards, and criticised for dropping white phosphorus on children, we are accused of anti-semitism. Hard to do the right thing, sometimes!!
Did some of the people excusing these attackers work for Rotherham council? Denying obvious blame just prolongs the problem and fuels hatred and division.
It also means here in the UK we will never get a decent goverment becuase whatever most people views on other policies they will generally vote for whatever party is vagely plausible and promises to keep muslims out.
However, making massive generalisations and assuming that our culture is always better in every way is hardly very helpful.
OK, now I recognise I am going way off-piste for the socialist republic of singletrackworld, but here goes: our culture [u]is[/u] better. I wouldn't care to live outside of Western civilisation.
We still don't know what religion the aggressors were, if any. You'll find rape (of which there was just one being quoted yesterday) is banned in all the religions In Arabia and North Africa and respect is demanded for women.
As one journalist put it this morning, you get bad people in any group. I would add that the bad people in these groups are particularly vile.
/\... and this must be true in the case of people who hang under trucks or cross seas in rubber boats to get here. Then we are expcted to accept the habits that turned the originating country into a shithole.
OK, now I recognise I am going way off-piste for the socialist republic of singletrackworld, but here goes: our culture is better. I wouldn't care to live outside of Western civilisation.
In our eyes our culture is better, but if you ask people from other cultures, including some of those cultures around the world where women are routinely degraded and have very little rights, then a lot of those people genuinely believe that their way is better. Ask a man who has five wives what he prefers - he's not going to say Western culture now is he?
Still it's not our place to educate them or tell them different, the same as it's not their place to do the same to us. But it is our right to defend our largely liberal beliefs inside the UK (or Germany, France etc) when this appears unduly threatened by outside influence.
