[Closed] Clintons pulling out of the high street?

Proposal to close 20% of their shops and looking to negotiate rents does not constitute 'pulling out of the high street'.
Keeping 266 shops open and closing 66 does not suggest the greetings card market is on it's knees.
The shops they intend to closed are, no doubt, trading poorly with little prospect of that changing.
Bad news for those who may be impacted by it but seems like a pragmatic, hard headed decision to me - hopefully for the long term greater good.
Wider concerns are rents, business rates and online.
At some point a government - or governments collectively - must get to grips with tax, trading status and other aspects of global/supra-national online retailers.

Bet that wasn’t on the cards.

At some point a government – or governments collectively – must get to grips with tax, trading status and other aspects of global/supra-national online retailers.

To some extent, but high street shopping is no longer growing and there are too many shops chasing too few customers. So like Pubs, there are 1000s of shops which will have to close to balance supply and demand. Economies and markets change over time and the decline of the high street is just one of current trends. Reducing rent / rates might slow it a bit; but it won't reverse the trend.

Personally it doesn't bother me, I really like online shopping, buy pretty much everything online and am quite grateful I don't have to go into town. I realise that shop workers losing their jobs won't be so sanguine about it....

What has Bill had to say ?

What has Bill had to say ?

Bill doesn't advocate pulling out, as that stain on Monica's dress caused him a bit of bother.

The highstreet is screwed. I was looking at snow boots in Mountain Warehouse today and not only were they £5 cheaper online, there was 20% off voucher code available that wasn't valid in store. When bricks and mortar can't even compete with their own on line presence you know the end is nigh.

Its a matter of political policy. Its not just internet shopping, its the growth of out of town retail parks and big supermarkets that the real high street killer and we have gone far to far down that road. for me it sucks big time. the choice of shops I can walk to has gone down dramatically in the last 25 years.

Another instance where we ave got it so wrong compared to the Netherlands

Greeting cards are surely a really good proposition for continuing in bricks and mortar shops, who browses and them online?

Do young people not really send them though?

who browses and them online?

Me it’s actually easier and quicker than a shop as you can narrow down with keywords and can see them, I also use shops too Card Factory is far cheaper than online and Clinton’s.

A timely read, another more worrying trend is the centralisation of wealth in cities...

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/nov/10/how-europes-cities-stole-continents-wealth

Quite hard to see a fix as just throwing money at areas which lack innovation / high skilled wealth creation won't change the underlying issue...

Its a matter of political policy

No. Governments have not mandated shopping centres. And it's not their place to prevent them, or protect town and city centres. Shopping centres offer a preferable alternative to high streets where shops are crammed into limited space with very little ability to change the shop floor space due to the buildings not being built for the purpose for which they're used. It's a dynamic world, always has been. The only thing that has changed is the speed of the dynacism. The internet has spurned a whole new generation of entrepreneurs with new and innovative ideas and different ways to reach their markets.

Just a simple case of consumers habits changing over time...just like they always have done and some sectors are not able to or willing to change. City and town centres can be re-purposed for other purposes. Most town and city centres have been outgrown by the population and attracting millions of shoppers each weekend for which they cannot cope is not a sustainable model.

The sentimental memories of us older generation types being dragged round the town and city centres by our parents at the weekend into cramped and claustrophobic shops are irrelevant and not valued by younger generations who do everything differently to us including the way they shop.

I'm a Moonpig convert. You can customise your cards and get them sent directly. Not actually much of a price difference either...purely the convenience factor and customisation of the product that is the draw.

My local high street is gaining more small independent shops and cafes as the big guns are moving to the outskirts, it’s actually going back go how it use to be with very few chains.

its the growth of out of town retail parks and big supermarkets that the real high street killer

On the back of demand to park cars near shopping facilities. Y'no, so folks don't get soaked when its raining, and can let kids run riot inside where they're easily managed, somewhere to eat and drink in a warm atmosphere...

All demanded by Joe-da-public hence the proliferation of them. All the government did was relax some rules on where they could be built on the back of developers requests.. most are situated in old industrial zones or brown field sites..next to half decent infrastructure for vehicles to get-to-home from.

The High St has many problems, overburden of taxation, landlords and it rains in the UK.

We have a new retail park. I'd have to walk past it if I wanted to go to any of the smaller shops. It has increased the choice of what can be bought locally and given a much needed kick up the arse to Tesco. But yeah, much prefer shopping online. Choice, availability, convenience. Much better than I'd get even travelling to our nearest city. Price is a secondary consideration.

Personally I wouldn't be that sorry to see greetings cards disappearing, at bit pointless and not exactly in the spirit of environmental awareness. Then there's all the single use tat Clinton's sell, especially the helium balloons. I think their time is over.

Dear Clintons

Love from kayak23

Good riddance..

I think the greeting card industry needs to go altogether... All those trees, all that fuel in transportation for what? For someone to look at a card then throw it in the bin a few days later. One of man's less intelligent inventions as far as I'm concerned.

My local high street is gaining more small independent shops and cafes as the big guns are moving to the outskirts, it’s actually going back go how it use to be with very few chains.

Future of the high street hopefully. Pedestrianised as well preferably so it’s just a nice place to be. Would this also not retain more wealth in the local area?

I very rarely go to town centres or retail parks, mainly as they all seem the same. Once you’ve been in one Next you’ve been in them all.

Paper is one of the most recyclable things there is, so get off that environmental high horse. Hopefully most of the plastic crap that everyday life is packaged in will be switched to paper. Mind you there's a word for people who send cards...Women (TM Mickey Flanagan).

Wait4me. A printer.

Just look at the difference in the Netherlands. High streets / town centres are not full of charity shops and boarded up shops they are thriving

Of course it a matter of public policy - thats why its different in different countries.

Pedestrianised as well preferably so it’s just a nice place to be. Would this also not retain more wealth in the local area?

They’re trialing one just now some shops are claiming trade is down from last year, you know when the U.K. had one of the best summers for years. They’re claiming it because people can’t park nearby although the parking is exactly the same.

Yes it’ll help as people don’t need to venture to other towns for the big chains, we’ve got a Starbucks this week, M&S Food due soon and a local butcher is opening a shop selling local produce whilst keeping his other shop open on the high street.

Don’t think birthday and Christmas cards etc are recyclable. At least in Derbyshire they aren’t.

Derbyshire doesn’t recycle cardboard?

Some cards can’t with glitter and crap stuck to them but generally they can.

Here in Spain the shops that do well are ones where personal service is offered. Loads of places altering clothes, plumbers merchant i took the whole pipe setup in and the chap changed the pressure reducer bit free of charge. Ditto the garden machinery shop, loads of 5 min jobs where they charge say 5e, it all adds up.

The shops that fail are just offering what you can buy online for less.

I think the small independent will make a come back but on different terms, lower rent, lower business rates etc.

I’ve not bought or sent a card in years. They’re in the same boat as wrapping paper to me, just pointless even if they can be recycled. Some odd tradition that just needs to disappear in my opinion.

Be interesting to know how many on here still send cards.

I have given up on cards now

The cards in these shops are boring.
I'd rather have something personalised from Moonpig, featuring a suitably embarrassing photo etc. Or a handmade card, for someone I care about.

Craig - not many handmade card shops about; do you craft your own or have a little man who does them for you.
Moonpig? Thanks but...no.

survivor ^^^ it's highly unlikely greetings cards are made from virgin fibre; they probably aren't 100% recycled either.
You do understand that paper, card and board production is highly sustainable?
You might benefit from reading up on pulp & paper production, recycling and sustainability.

There’s always your local independent gift shop you can support. Smiths are absolute rip off merchants.

Right now there’s a card that we both sell . Their’s however costs a pound more.

There’s always your local independent gift shop you can support. Smiths are absolute rip off merchants.

Right now there’s a card that we both sell . Their’s however costs a pound more.

But do you offer a library service ? 😂

Clinton? Pulling out?

Totally miss read this thread...

The cost of postage is a major issue too.

I still buy quite a few gift cards, say 8 a year. They're really important for a lot of people. For example, an old friend of the family is 80 now and quite ill. She always sends me and my sister birthday cards, even though we're now well into our 30s. We like it, she likes it. It's our way of staying in touch. I'm sure it makes a big difference to her week receiving a hand written card and message. Also, kids birthday cards are still a thing so we buy quite a few of those for parties. £1.50 gets quite a lot of value as the kids can spend ages customising the card.

That said, all of these cards get bought in one of the supermarkets, or maybe an "artisan" one from a local touristy place. The supermarkets tend to keep a smaller selection of really very good cards and churn them to follow trends. Clintons is just a dump of stuff. Even Lidl do a small selection of nice cards.

As others have said above, I have absolutely zero nostalgia for getting dragged around the shops on a Saturday by my mum. Awful experience. It's brilliant that I can dress my kids really well without them ever having to put up with bollocks like queuing for manky changing rooms and sitting in sweaty cafes hiding from the rain with a million other people. I don't think we've found a way of putting online and bricks and mortar on a fairer tax basis yet, or thought about how to mitigate the job losses and change of use for old retail premises.

Whilst I don't disagree that government involvement has boosted the rise of out of town retail parks (relaxation of planning regs and likely some subsidies) It's too simplistic to say:

thats why its different in different countries

Geography, culture, demographics etc. all play a big part in it to.

I can't remember the last time I went in somewhere like Clintons, usually buy cards via Moonpig or just when in the local Tesco. I actually think cards are a waste of time but unfortunately some other family members don't so I just go along with things

Not surprised they’re struggling. Clinton’s is the last place I’d go to buy a card. Full of old, flowery, boring cards. The stores aren’t even very nice to be in. Much prefer a good independent shop.

Of course it a matter of public policy – thats why its different in different countries.

So the only differences between countries are those that are public policy? You seem to be confusing the UK with 1950s USSR....

Much prefer a good independent shop.

Nah - Card Factory for all but my wife and kids. How Clintons even exists now is beyond me when you can get 10 for £1 at Card Factory - we buy handfuls of the things every so often for birthdays, congratulations, get well soon etc just so we have emergency cards to hand.

Good riddance..

I think the greeting card industry needs to go altogether… All those trees, all that fuel in transportation for what? For someone to look at a card then throw it in the bin a few days later. One of man’s less intelligent inventions as far as I’m concerned.

+ a bazillion. This forum needs a 'like' button.

Seems like the greetings card market is on it’s knees

Its not, IMO Clintons is just a bit rubbish and pricey. If I want a nice card I'l go the indie place, if I dont it'll be card factory, cant beat 5 cards for £1!

Drac

Subscriber

Bet that wasn’t on the cards.

There's no rhyme or reason to it.....

I'm sorry your business went bust
But cards are no longer a must.
A text or a tweet
Is almost as sweet
And no one is really that fussed

👌🏻😂

survivor ^^^ it’s highly unlikely greetings cards are made from virgin fibre; they probably aren’t 100% recycled either.
You do understand that paper, card and board production is highly sustainable?
You might benefit from reading up on pulp & paper production, recycling and sustainability

I'm not on a particular environmental high horse nor do I care about reading up on recycling or sustainability of cards.

My problem is it's entirely pointless in the first place.

You've been brain washed by the evil card making corporations to think you need to buy and send cards. You don't. No one cares. Free yourself from their bonds brother. 😂

It makes me laugh when people say that the decline in the high street is a consequence of the growth of online, then suggest that reduced rents would have little effect. I've run both high street and online shops, so have a pretty good idea of where the issues are.

The fact is that warehouse rents are much much cheaper than high street rents, and business rates are also way too high in the centre of towns. The massive hikes in business rates a couple of years ago in most areas really didn't help, either.

Now, lefties like tj would probably suggest that increasing business rates and rents for online businesses would help level the playing field, but most people with a brain would realise that this would be disastrous. What would be better is for high street landlords to accept that the days of taking the piss with rent are over, and bring things down to sensible, sustainable levels. £100k pa rents for an off-high street medium sized shop are just stupid (I'm looking at you, Bath & NES Council, but there are many other places that are just as bad).

JP

Yep. what's really needed is to take land ownership out of the hands of a few wealthy individuals who buy up town centre properties and let it out at extortionate rates. Community Land Ownership in Scotland has, to date, been focused on rural issues but needs expanded, along with right-to-buy in the same way that large estates are obligated to sell to the community.

Now, lefties like tj would probably suggest that increasing business rates and rents for online businesses would help level the playing field, but most people with a brain would realise that this would be disastrous. What would be better is for high street landlords to accept that the days of taking the piss with rent are over, and bring things down to sensible, sustainable levels. £100k pa rents for an off-high street medium sized shop are just stupid (I’m looking at you, Bath & NES Council, but there are many other places that are just as bad).

Maybe, but there has to be a ballance.

Cant just make everything cheaper and more cost effective. Otherwise no one would have a job.

A high street shop closes because people buy their coffee and chess sets online because they have lower rents and fewer staff.

A few years later the coffee roasters realise they can just ship directly to the customers and chess sets can be bought online at alibaba.

Unfortunately now that no one has a job on the high street or in a warehouse there's no one left to sell it to.

And there ends the modern allegory of 1920's laizes faire American economic policy.

My problem is it’s entirely pointless in the first place.

You’ve been brain washed by the evil card making corporations to think you need to buy and send cards. You don’t. No one cares. Free yourself from their bonds brother. 😂

Amen brother. It’s time for the last card shop to be closed and the envelope sealed for good.

One of man’s less intelligent inventions as far as I’m concerned.

Indeed. Because before greetings cards were invented, people would simply send a letter on special occasions.

Which was far better for some reason.

I love it. Inventing a whole new thesis for me that bears no resemblance to what I think or say

Personally I believe it should have been done thru planning like the dutch have. NO big supermarkets allowed in town centres, no food retail in out of town shopping centres. Thais has been a policy for decades. the result is Dutch town centres still thrive, independents do not get squeezed out. the difference with the UK is like night and day

BTW - I am no lefty. I only seem like one to you because you are so far to the right. I am a liberal dark green if you want to know my political home. Or as Ernie once called me " some sort of pale pink wishy washy liberal"

And of course stopping the massive tax fraud and evasion by companies like Amazon would help level the playing field,. Howver its not internet shopping that killed the high street. Its out of town shopping centres and oversupply of supermarkets

Amazon et al don’t commit any tax fraud they pay exactly what the outdated tax laws allow.

survivor - piss poor attempt at humour up there ^^^; or was it failed sarcasm?
Do you have a vision for the 'high street'?
You may feel comfortable when it's been reduced to a melange of charity shops, nailbars, bookies and massage parlours; maybe that's what you're used to - who knows?
As for the physical products sold by Clintons and others, there's a significant demand and long may that continue.
You're welcome to your opinion; I think you're wrong - brother.

drac & tj^^^- I'm with TJ's sentiment but, as drac pointed out, amazon et al cannot be accused of tax fraud.
They use the loosely written tax rules to their advantage and know that the likelihood of governments working together to develop a cohesive tax policy for internet companies is vanishingly small.
Oooh look, there's an open door - let's push it and see what happens; answer - nothing.
Problem is the lack of co-ordination - and absence of a real determination to find a means of 'levelling the playing field'.
Until that happens Bezos and others will fill their wallets - tax free.

For all you grumpy pants have a card on me.

I think the greeting card industry needs to go altogether… All those trees, all that fuel in transportation for what? For someone to look at a card then throw it in the bin a few days later. One of man’s less intelligent inventions as far as I’m concerned.

It would be interesting to know the carbon footprint of the card industry.
It's not right to say its killing off trees. If we did not have a card industry, the trees would not be planted to support it. Is the production and transport pollution offset by the life of the tree? I dont know.

The business model of Clinton's does seem a bit s**t though. I understand people hoping to preserve the skills and knowledge of their high street butcher and baker, but what does the high street card retailer bring to the specialist table?

You do not think its fraud to export all the profits? Of course it is. It might not be illegal but it certainly is fraudulent because its based around false reporting of profits

Wonder what percentage of young folk (under 30) still purchase cards. I’m an old duffer and tend to give folk a call, drop a text, WhatsApp or as a last resort Facebook. Cards might be sustainable, I don’t know, but it just seems like such a waste.

I suppose the one positive of buying a card from a gift shop is that you get less of those creepy cards. You know the ones. Where somebody you vaguely know thinks it’s a good idea to send you a family portrait and you kind of recognise them.

I've worked in retail design for 20 years, what's happening to bricks and mortar retail is obviously not good for my industry which is why I've been trying to get out for years, this year I've finally got an exit plan that appears to be working, and it involves bikes which is a bonus :0)

Retail is going through a major change which is being affected by online retail but it's not the only reason.
- People are busier than ever before, they don't want to spend the weekend queuing for carparks (and paying for the privilege) just to find their size isn't in stock. What was once a leisure activity (for some) is now a chore for most.
- Many retailers have degraded the shopping experience by concentrating on cutting store staff. What's the point of buying in-store if the staff no less about the products than you - see Mothercare.
- Like politics, retail is becoming polarised with the middle ground being ripped out leaving the budget stores at one end and high end at the other.

The tax regime for bricks and mortar certainly needs to be looked at to make the playing field a bit more level but bemoaning the loss of national retailers who provided an outdated shopping experience is pointless.
I actually think independent retail will start to grow again, not based on price but on being able to offer an experience that can compete or accompany leisure activities.

Quite a few years ago a chap i knew spent a few hundred quid on cards to sell on the local market, huge mark up on the proces paid,and they sold reasonably well.

People bought and sent cards then postage was a lot cheaper, its not now, and royal mail have just been told to pay 50 million quid fine for a monopoly service so expect stamps to rise in price.

You’ve been brain washed by the evil card making corporations to think you need to buy and send cards. You don’t. No one cares. Free yourself from their bonds brother. 😂

I stopped doing it years ago. I still send cards where it's "expected" - mum's birthday for instance - but the idea of sending Christmas cards to everyone I've ever met is just barmy. For the last few years now I've put the money I would have spent on cards towards a food bank donation, followed by an (obviously virtue-signalling) post on Facebook showing a bag of food and saying "this is why I'm not sending you a Christmas card and why I don't want one." Hopefully it'll catch on.

amazon et al cannot be accused of tax fraud.
They use the loosely written tax rules to their advantage

And of course, this has nothing to do with brexit and new EU tax laws.

You do not think its fraud to export all the profits? Of course it is. It might not be illegal but it certainly is fraudulent because its based around false reporting of profits

You seem to have confused "legal" with "moral" here. If it's not illegal then it ipso facto cannot be fraud. These companies may be acting immorally but if they're working inside the letter of the law then they've done nothing wrong, it's the law which is at fault.