[Closed] Cliff!

It has been alleged that she was about to blow the lid on the elm guest house story, where children were brought for VIPs to abuse, incl Richards, savile, Cyril smith etc

Jive, that video is ridiculous,,, Cliff used to piss on Melvyn Bragg!? lol.

Its also unrealistic to think there will be any physical evidence after 30 years.By this argument Saville is innocent as there is no physical proof just witness testimony.

There is a whole heap of difference between 1 person only making an allegation against one other person and multiple persons making the similar allegations over a number of years against the same person.

what exactly are you claiming happened to make folk exaggerate from an event to a sexual assault

http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/24/student-lied-about-rape-so-she-could-re-sit-failed-a-level-5583832/

http://www.gmp.police.uk/live/nhoodv3.nsf/WebsitePages/1AFEF388FE15068180257F8B00765500?OpenDocument

I could easily find other examples. Yes courts and juries do make decisions, but the can and do make illogical decisions, especially if it's solely based on testimony of one witness against the defendant, based on emotion, prejudice and a host of other factors. I still remain uncomfortable about cases where the alleged offence took place many years ago where the only witness is the victim and there is no physical evidence or history of offences on the part of the defendant or multiple allegations from other victims.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

If he's been named it's because someone in his staff has issued a press release saying it's him.

Well. You might think so, but remember when they decided to raid his flat and mysteriously the press got there first?

Having worked with a member of staff who had to have treatment for false memory syndrome where she thought she'd been abused, I have some concerns about historic abuse allegations, but as others have said, it is rarely just one person's word against another.

I'm not sure how you square the circle regarding protecting the identity of the accused and enabling other victims to come forward. In this internet age presumption of innocence risks being lost.

And while I would like all victims to be able to get justice and compensation, it boils my piss when the first thing you see is the solicitor for the victims on the telly. A friend at a local authority deals with their abuse claims, some of the chancers really undermine the genuine victims, wasting valuable time and money that the genuine victims deserve.

Is there any way that he could have a fair trial now? Stupid reporting or a cleverly planned plot to avoid conviction? Makes you think.....

In the meantime, though not every element can be verified, there are many truths in this

A video with photos and some words but no actually proof.

Strangely, I don't think any of these celeb cases have used the argument that they couldn't get a fair trial, at least not successfully. I'm not sure if/how/when that applies these days.

That's what google is for...

"Its also unrealistic to think there will be any physical evidence after 30 years."

Diary entries from the time, evidence that corroborate the location of the perpetrator at the time of the attack, pregnancy, souvenirs given to the victim, telling people at the time. There is sometimes evidence and when you have many hundreds making the accusations you only need a tiny percentage with some hard evidence to get some safe convictions.

But, either way, the solution to lack of evidence is not to convict anyway.

There is a whole heap of difference between 1 person only making an allegation against one other person and multiple persons making the similar allegations over a number of years against the same person.

I have never denied folk lie and in all those cases the court system worked so its a bit daft to use them as proof. False claims are incredibly rare and its unlikely, to put it mildly, to be the case that all those who come forward are making it up which is what the slur is here.

I think we all can see both sides and we need some balance between these two extremes of no proof/just someone word so let them walk v well they said it so its true

The current system has a very difficult balancing act and it does it well
Its massively unrealistic to expect physical evidence after 30 years,sets the bar too high and allows offenders to walk free.

A video with photos and some words but no actually proof.

Sometimes it's just a matter of digging a little deeper to verify (or otherwise) what's being said:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5907125/Letters-shed-new-light-on-Kray-twins-scandal.html ]Letters shed new light on Kray twins scandal[/url]

The previously-unseen notes appear to show that Boothby, a former MP and aide to Winston Churchill, wrongly received a £40,000 libel payout from a newspaper that had linked him with the Krays.

Allegations surrounding "the peer and the gangster" emerged in 1964 at a time when Westminster was still reeling from the Profumo Affair.

When the Sunday Mirror reported in July 1964 that Scotland Yard was investigating a homosexual relationship between an unnamed peer and a major figure in the criminal underworld, suspicion fell on Boothby and on Kray, who, together with his twin brother Reggie, was building a reputation for running protection rackets and dishing out violence to those who stood in his way.

However, Boothby chose to go public with a letter to The Times in which he denied being homosexual and stated that he had only ever met Kray three times, always to discuss business matters and always in the company of other people.

Facing the threat of a libel defeat, the Sunday Mirror issued an apology to the peer and paid out £40,000, equivalent to £500,000 today. The newspaper's editor, Reg Payne, lost his job over the affair.

Yet a newly-uncovered letter sent by Boothby to Kray shows that the two men were friends, and were making social arrangements, more than a year before the peer won his payout.

On notepaper carrying his address in Eaton Square, Belgravia, Boothby wrote to Kray on June 6, 1963: [b]"Thank you for your postcard. I very nearly went to Jersey myself, as I have never been there, and hear from so many people that it is quite delightful."[/b]

"If you are free tomorrow evening between six and seven, do come round for a drink and a chat."

The brief note is signed: "Ever sincerely, Boothby."

The letters, which are being put up for sale by an anonymous vendor, shed new light on one of the murkiest episodes in the career of the Kray twins.

Since described as the "pervert peer" in reference to his sexual proclivities, Boothby was shouted down in the Lords in February 1965 for demanding that the Krays should be released on bail after their arrest and charge for running the protection racket.

Another letter from Boothby to Kray, dated April 1965 on House of Lords notepaper, says: "I have had a great many letters congratulating me on the stand I took in the House of Lords on your behalf; and that some of their Lordships are now a bit ashamed of the treatment they gave me."

It adds: "I think that they will now leave you alone. And you never can say that I haven't done my best."

Mention of Jersey is especially concerning, [url= http://news.sky.com/story/1530217/edward-heath-five-police-forces-investigating ]given the allegations surrounding Haut De La Garenne, including involvement of Jimmy Savile and Edward Heath[/url]:

In a statement, Jersey Police said: "Sir Edward Heath does feature as part of Operation Whistle, currently investigating historical allegations of abuse in Jersey."

The force says the allegations of abuse involve 13 "people of public prominence".

Many of the claims centre on the Haut de la Garenne children's home, which closed in 1986.

The home was said to have been "frequented" by Jimmy Savile, who has been accused of abusing youngsters there.

US Newsweek reporter Leah Goodman has claimed she was told of allegations against Sir Edward on Jersey in 2011.

But she says she was then thrown out of the UK for investigating them.

She told Sky News: "(Police officers investigating claims at the children's home) had heard the rumours and I know a few of the senior members of the police believed that (Heath) was at it.

"The yachting culture had long been known for bringing boys and other children out on boats into international waters ... murky legalities ... it was a place where it was understood people couldn't escape.

"I know Edward Heath was involved in the yachting culture on the island."

[url= http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trenches-filled-with-lime-found-at-jersey-house-of-horrors-care-home-6693782.html ]
pits filled with lime[/url]:

Two secret pits filled with a substance that can be used to decompose bodies have been found in the grounds of the Jersey care home where child remains were found.

The mysterious trenches - one measuring 5ft deep - were filled with lime, which destroys flesh and bones.

and allegedly being the location of some [url= https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/tag/zandvoort/ ]very vile acts[/url]:

VILE pictures of babies being raped were taken for a child porn ring at the Jersey kids’ home of horror, police feared last night.

Experts think the home is the source of many of the network’s 9,000 sick pictures, discovered in an infamous haul in Holland in the Nineties.It was dubbed the Zandvoort stash, after the town where it was found- but the studio was never uncovered.

Experts are now 90 per cent certain it was the baby unit at Haut de la Garenne’s Aviemore wing. Some of the victims in the black and white pictures were just 18 months old.

Now, bear in mind this was written long before either the Jersey Abuse Inquiry or the investigation into Edward Heath began:

[url= http://google-law.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/jummy-savile-edward-heath-and-kray-twins.html ]Jimmy Savile, Edward Heath and the Kray twins[/url]

It was also written long before this telegraph piece:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11948323/lord-boothby-sex-parties-ronnie-kray-mi5-documents.html ]
The Spy Files: Lord Boothby's sordid sex parties with Ronnie Kray revealed in MI5 files[/url]

love all this stuff Jive, keep it coming. Everyone likes a story and it's very easy to believe, wonder if it's all true.

I'll save Cliff's pal Billy Graham for another day:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Awwww, go on, Jive, it's raining and your last contribution kept me busy for an hour.

No can do... as a consolation, here's further confirmation of correspondence between Cliff Richard and the Krays:

[url= http://www.standard.co.uk/news/ronnie-kray-s-letter-of-praise-for-cliff-richard-6527292.html ]Ronnie Kray’s letter of praise for Cliff Richard[/url]

A Collection of personal items that belonged to gangster twins Ronnie and Reggie Kray has sold for more than £20,000 at auction.

They include a misspelt letter from Ronnie, who reveals delight at being contacted by Cliff Richard.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8074918/Kray-twins-memorabilia-sold-at-auction.html ]
Kray twins memorabilia sold at auction[/url]

In another error-strewn letter written from the jail to Mr Pearson in January 1969, Ronnie reveals his pleasure at receiving a letter from singer Cliff Richard.

He wrote: "John, I had a verry nice letter from Cliff Ritchards. I thought it was marvoulas of him to write to me at a time like this."

These are the photos from the latter article...

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

This one wasn't included in the article:

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=Z0zsWpN2ukUDXYqF4boPJbVgRxuZDQSkkX0XiG4SA29U34m5P7j84awUM6IdeuAz337H1yz%2F5O621maHDww1xg%3D%3D[/img]

What hit rate is JHJ working on? For all the detractors, looking back he's doing pretty well.

What hit rate is JHJ working on? For all the detractors, looking back he's doing pretty well

I don't really have a strong opinion on his theories. I have an opinion on how people dismiss what he says and how rude they are. It's like TJ though, if your opinion doesn't fit with the clique then it's open season for abuse.

Its nothing like that - though there is some bullying to be fair.

Basically if you spout utter BS you will be called out for it

You have agreed with some of his outlandish musings on here hence you think his strike rate is something worthy of praise

Basically if you spout utter BS you will be called out for it

I just let you get on with it, Junky, on the basis that other people can read, use a search engine and think for themselves. 💡

Now this is just fair comment and not bullying. jhj's post either disturb me or make me laugh, whatever the truth he must live in a scarey world. Keep em coming though as I enjoy reading the guff that the interweb was invented for.

So who murdered Jill Dando anyway?

And why?

Not me.

Or was it?

Someone knows far to much

So there was a professional hit on a well known TV presenter and no-one has any idea who did it, or why?

fourbanger - Member

I don't really have a strong opinion on his theories. I have an opinion on how people dismiss what he says and how rude they are.

He constantly derails and destroys conversations. That's way ruder than most of the responses.

My mate who's a senior copper was absolutely certain that Barry George was guilty of her murder

I still think cliffs dodgy tho

it's like trying to work out game of thrones plotlines. Did Cliff seek out her friendship because she had the info on his nefarious past involving the elm guest house? perhaps he provided more info to bolster her case.
The full list of names of those who were purported to have attended the sessions held there and therefore potentially guilty of hiring a hit on Ms Dando. [url= https://cigpapers.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-elm-guest-house-vip-paedophile-party-list/ ]here[/url]

He constantly derails and destroys conversations. That's way ruder than most of the responses.

But not nearly as rude as the organized abuse of children, which the authorities have helped cover up for decades...

Anyhow, back to the conversation, before it was derailed;

Of course, Barry George is far from an angel (though there are several factors which suggest he's not the culprit) and I don't believe for a second that Cliff was the killer, however, we still need a motive.

Say for example Cliff was part of a wider network...

(A matter which is continuously played down, despite the existence of organizations such as the Paedophile Information Exchange and their links to several key players in the bigger picture)

He constantly derails and destroys conversations. That's way ruder than most of the responses.

I think you needs to go back and look at his posts in light of new evidence.

So there was a professional hit on a well known TV presenter and no-one has any idea who did it, or why?

Well, I should imagine that if you went back over all her appearances on "Crimewatch" you could draw up quite a long "shortlist" 😕

A friend of ours was at the BBC at the time, and knew Jill from her days on local news. I'm pretty sure that if she was on the point of exposing a big VIP paedophile ring, her colleagues would have blown the story wide open.

You'd also think that the story of Jimmy Savile would've been blown wide open long ago... or the countless other cases where police investigations were shut down.

When a prominent national celebrity is killed in broad daylight by a hitman and the killer never found, it might discourage anyone being too forthright with what they know.

[quote=fourbanger ]I think you needs to go back and look at his posts in light of new evidence.

The evidence being that you are STW secong biggest conspiracist ?

This is not new

The allegations against Cliff aren't new either... who was 1st to mention them on the forum, before the story broke in the news?

The whole Jimmy Saville thing did open my eyes to the scale of cover-up and willful ignorance that can go on. Someone on STW made allegations several years ago and I, amongst many others, called them out for making up stories. That has, inevitably, made me a bit more open-minded about similar accusations that, at the start, seem ridiculous and far-fetched.

"When a prominent national celebrity is killed in broad daylight by a hitman and the killer never found, it might discourage anyone being too forthright with what they know."

Yet you can post it on forums in total safety. Makes you think.

Makes me think that years of the internet has led to prolific sharing of information, which brings a whole new level of safety in numbers...

Of course, when Jill Dando was murdered, the internet, forums and blogging were in their infancy, youtube, twitter and facebook didn't exist and if anyone had suggested a VIP paedophile ring involving Jimmy Savile, Edward Heath Cliff Richard and the Kray twins, people would've roasted em something rotten, or just thought they were nuts.

At least the internet has progressed beyond it's infancy...

The evidence being that you are STW secong biggest conspiracist ?
This is not new

Yeah, show me the evidence for that would you.

Isn't any? OK. Just getting caught up in the frenzy of JHJ haters circlejerk aren't you.

I dont think I have even engaged with JHJ on this thread and If I have it has not been hate filled- still you get straight in there wiht the ad homs and the straw men eh
Provide the evidence - yes that s an effective technique when dealing with conspiracists

Provide the evidence - yes that s an effective technique

Will you be providing the evidence Junky?

Bit worried I might have some competition in the 'doing your own research' stakes...

You seem to have forgotten your comments about Jive's contributions on page 2, Junkyard.

Basically if you spout utter BS you will be called out for it

You have agreed with some of his outlandish musings on here hence you think his strike rate is something worthy of praise

Whatever Jives posts are, they are most definitely not "outlandish musings". They are well researched and backed up with links for you to read and form your own opinion of. As for accusing others of spouting "utter bullshit", it would be nice if you quoted what you are referring to so we can decide if it is indeed bullshit or you being gratuitously insulting.

[i]As for accusing others of spouting "utter bullshit", it would be nice if you quoted what you are referring to so we can decide if it is indeed bullshit or you being gratuitously insulting.[/i]

LOL 8) Its all gone quiet!

Have you heard of bikes and seen the weather? DO you want a link to my STrava page as proof I did genuinely go for a bike ride.

Whatever Jives posts are, they are most definitely not "outlandish musings"

Honestly all I can do is laugh as playing the evidence game with conspiracist is the perfect definition of folly

I was unaware there were so many and i am wavering on scostroute now 😉

FWIW he types so much he must eventually get something correct.