[Closed] Clever logo... (well I thought so anyway)

@Jamie - what and where is that weird place??

It's Powerstation IM in Belgium.

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=45380

A Hi-Res pic to break your browser:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brokencapslock/5896975215/sizes/o/in/set-72157627105844096/

actively and with great effort avoid certain products, because of their marketing
and have not said I do

[quote=TJ]it really is my position that I do my damnedest to avoid being influenced by marketing

Followed by the fact that you avoid branded stuff?

Its a high dose of caffine in a convenient form

Graham - you still miss the point

I am but an ignorant worm, oh enlightened one, but I'll try to keep up. 🙄

Its about avoiding beiong a part of the consumerist society. Once one understands one can reject marketing then the need to buy consumer goods reduces.

Teach us, oh great one.

😛

Do you [i]honestly[/i] you've cracked some magical truth here TJ?? Shown that the Emperor is naked? Do you honestly think that me and the other ignorant souls on this thread are debating with you purely because we have yet you achieve your beatific vision and understanding of consumerist society?

FWIW, I do generally [u]try[/u] to avoid overt consumerism. I do get stuff second hand. I do try to mend rather than throw away and buy new. And I do attempt to be as subjective as I can when I buy things.

I suspect that a large number of people on here would say the same thing.

But I still recognise that branding works and does influence decisions. Even on you. Whether you like it or not.

Charlie - you need to understand the concept of the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of what it is not because of what it is marketed as

you keep saying this, no one asked you about this. I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other

No charlie - you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do.

No, I'm not. I fully believe you act and think as you do. I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

its true we will argue about **** all

But I still recognise that branding works and does influence decisions. Even on you. Whether you like it or not.

Graham / charlie. You need to have a look at what I have said with an open mind.

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don't understand does not mean it is not possible.

Well, his blood chemistry sensors indicated a low caffeine level, and having no access to a cup of coffee, he went to a shop - chosen at random, since the signs on the outside meant nothing to him - and conducted an analysis of all the drinks on sale, and discovered that the most caffeine per Scots penny was provided by No-Name Cola.

But then he remembered the sexy ads and bought a Red Bull.

CharlieMungus - Member

"No charlie - you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do".

No, I'm not. I fully believe you act and think as you do. I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

thats exactly it - you are telling me I cannot act and think as I do a perfect example in a single sentance

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don't understand does not mean it is not possible.

And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this "branding nonsense" - so the offence is mutual.

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don't understand does not mean it is not possible.

You think that's offensive? Wait till they start laughing at your pointy Vulcan ears!!

Red Bull: I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other.

thats exactly it - you are telling me I cannot act and think as I do a perfect example in a single sentance

GrahamS

And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this "branding nonsense" - so the offence is mutual.

really? where?

You did, TJ, I can't be bothered to wade back through 17 pages to find it. But you definitely called people gullible.

Look - when people create a product, they have to decide what they want to do. The people at Porsche decided that they wanted to make fast cars, so that's what they did. That's building a brand. It's the reason they don't make slow ones, cos their brand is fast.

That's a fact - their cars really are fast, so you're not being duped. They're not pretending they are fast, or trying to convince you they are fast when they are not. They ARE fast, that's an incontrovertible fact. And it's the core of their brand.

Branding IS about facts as well as emotions. And sometimes lies.

Charlie

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do.

TJ, you do keep ignoring the main example of the infuence of branding. Quite studiously, it seems.

The Red Bull. One amongst many. You picked it up, apparently because you want caffeine. Why not any of the others? Have you tasted them all? why not coffee? why not a glass of water and a pro-plus?

Go on TJ, why DO you buy Red Bull over other caffeine-based drinks? I am still waiting.

the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of what it is not because of what it is marketed as

Food & drink raises an interesting point. What is often sold as the same product is not necessarily the same all over the world. The recipes used to make food & drink products are often amended to make the product suit a certain market.

If you wanted to buy a Red Bull in Thailand it would be very different to what you get in the UK.

The simple fact that a Red Bull is available to you and the way it tastes, is this not part of marketing?

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

Molgrips - you are still missing my point. i completely understand what branding is and accept this

Branding IS about facts as well as emotions. And sometimes lies.

And what I do tho is try to look beyond the branding at the inherent attributes ie the facts and use them to make the decisions whilst doing my best to ignore the emotions and lies.

this is what graham does not get with the red bull example. I buy it for what it is - a high caffeine drink ( and I only buy red bull if there is no palatable cheaper alternative) I don't buy it for its association with adventure and sport, I buy it cos it will help me keep awake ant 3am

mastiles_fanylion - Member

Go on TJ, why DO you buy Red Bull over other caffeine-based drinks? I am still waiting.

if its the only palatable one available. I buy the cheaper ones if they are available assuming I find them palatable. I have tried most of them

CharlieMungus - Member

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

but... I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other.

then why say this?
I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

There is no conflict.

[img] [/img]

And what I do tho is try to look beyond the branding at the inherent attributes

Yes, but the inherent attributes are part of the brand.

Red Bull is an interesting example because before it arrived there was not much of a market for high caffeine fizzy drinks. The fact that TJ even considered the possibility of buying such a product ia testament to the power of advertising.

<awaits inevitable denial >

[img] [/img]

😯

FFS - can you not grasp the basic concept here?

but... I'm asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink?Why you first picked it up?

I drink it on night shifts

and why that one over any other.

I don't - I buy the cheapest palatable one. So sometimes red rooster, sometimes the lidl variant.

this is the concept you cannot seem to get. Red bull is a product with attributes. I go to the shop thinking - "I want a can of super caffine juice " and I buy the cheapest palatable one with the right ingredients.

> And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this "branding nonsense" - so the offence is mutual.

really? where?

Errr.. bascally [u]throughout[/u] your entire 30,000 word argument.
Some choice things you have said:

[u]I pity anyone who believes in all this stuff[/u] and who wastes their life and / or money doing it...

This is [u]clearly a very difficult concept for some of you to understand[/u]. some of us do this. we buy for what things are...

[u]You confuse[/u] what something is branded as for what its properties are. One is inherent, one is a construct.

[u]you guys grossly overestimate[/u] the importance of this stuff and grossly overestimate how many people see it as you do.

..clever advertising can assiciate your product with certain attributes in they eyes of [u]the gullible.[/u].. However you need to accept that for many of us we see straight thru it.

...Unlike you guys [u]I do understand[/u] that what the product is is not always the same as what it is branded and marketed as.

...You have to separate the object from the referent. this is the bit [u]you and the other believers in marketing are not getting[/u].

...a part of what [u]you fail to understand[/u] is that I am not paying your game at all. I don't play the consumerist game.

...[u]you seem unable to understand[/u] that there is another way of thinking and working that involves actively discounting the branding and looking beyond that at what it is.

...to you the object is the referent so [u]you cannot grasp this concept[/u].

...because [u]yo don't understand[/u] you make up things

...this is the bit [u]you find so hard to grasp[/u] - what the object is and what it is branded and marketed as are not always the same thing.

...The other thing [u]I understand[/u] that people seem to have difficulty with is the object is not the brand.

...this is the bit [u]you guys need to learn and understand[/u]

etc etc etc etc etc

Executive somethingion: TJ understands. We do not. We are gullible and should be pitied.

You did, TJ, I can't be bothered to wade back through 17 pages to find it.

I can 😀

[img] [/img]

CharlieMungus - Member

then why say this?
I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

There is no conflict.

Can you not understand simple words? you are completely contradicting yourself - are you the red queen?

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

GrahamS

is your comprehension that limited? really that is ridiculous.

You have failed to understand an basic cornerstone of the debate and are not open minded enough to accept that.

if its the only palatable one available. I buy the cheaper ones if they are available assuming I find them palatable. I have tried most of them

mastiles_fanylion

coke is a lower dose of caffine per unit volume and does not contain taurine.

TJ - why I realise that you do not see an ad in a magazine and think 'mmm I want a Red Bull' what you need to realise is that both parts of this...

I buy the cheapest palatable one

Red Bull for example costs pence to make yet sells for pounds, when a product has that much of a profit margin the price it sells for is a marketing decision.

Even if you choose to buy a cheaper alternative you have been influenced by marketing.

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don't think you are very aware of your motivations

Ok, tell me why there is a contradiction there.

I bought it for what it is.

and you only knew what it was because of the marketing.
So you bought something as a result of the marketing. (fine, not only because of marketing, but no-one is claiming marketing is that strong). If there was not an advertising campaign and associated marketing, you would not have picked it up. So you now buy Red Bull (when no other cheaper , palatable option is available), because you like how it tastes and the effect it has on you. So, their marketing worked in getting you to try their stuff.

[img] [/img]

coke is a lower dose of caffine per unit volume and does not contain taurine.

Of course you may prefer the taste of Red Bull over coffee but that would show you really are broken.

coke is a lower dose of caffine per unit volume and does not contain taurine.

You are taurine deficient?

OK - I realised ages ago this had reached an impasse but now it is also no longer amusing me.

some of you need to open your eyes and minds and accept that there are people who have a different world view.

you fail to understand that the object is not the referent, the product is not the brand. Because of this you cannot accept that it is possible to buy things for what they [i]are[/i] not for what they [i]are branded[/i]

I cannot explain this any better - I have tried.

is your comprehension that limited? really that is ridiculous.

You have failed to understand an basic cornerstone of the debate and are not open minded enough to accept that.

Yep limited comprehension and failed understanding. That's me.
I can't think why I got the impression you considered yourself a superior being...

In this thread you have openly stated that you dislike fussy (winky) logos, you do like traditional logos, you have dismissed versions of your name based on their appearance, and expressed a preference for solicitors based on their logos.

Yet you maintain that you are immune to branding.
I don't think it is me that has the closed mind!

[img] [/img]

Ok, and you fail to see that you were sold on the idea of Red Bull

It is also a product - can you not see this -there is an object with inherent attributes there. Its a high dose of caffine in a convenient form
this is the bit you seem unable to do - separate the onject from its branding

no its not - its a brand, they sell a high energy caffeine drink that is branded as red bull.

A hoover is not a hoover, its a vacuum cleaner, but the brand is so dominant it has cornered the market (until dyson came along) - if you can't grasp this there there is no hope, or you're a stubborn old bugger.

the

Is that your way of agreeing that price and taste are both part of marketing? 🙂

[img] [/img]

mastiles_fanylion - Member

"coke is a lower dose of caffine per unit volume and does not contain taurine."

Agreed but are you ever in such a desperate need for more caffeine than a can of Coke delivers? And if so, why not just a coffee? Or a ProPlus?

yes - 3 am on a night shift when I have to remain awake for 6 more hours. I have no access to decent coffee. Proplus would do but i don't like to be seen swallowing pills

[img] [/img]

TandemJeremy

the object is not the referent, the product is not the brand.

"no its not - its a brand, they sell a high energy caffeine drink that is branded as red bull" 🙄 so there is no inherent attributes to teh object?

But I buy it because its a high caffine drink not because its red bull. I will buy a diffenrt cheaper one if it is available

jackthedog
....A couple of years ago I realised I found the whole branding sector - the sector my professional life had been dedicated to based on decisions I made when I was 14 - vapid and soul destroying. I was creating brands for products I thought had no relevance. I was just a cog in a big money making machine. I was just on this planet to help sell crap to people who didn't need it. So eventually I walked out in a strop. I had a bit of a breakdown.

I came home in tears and stayed in bed for two days wondering what went wrong with my life. Wondering how I become a pawn in the corporate world I so despise. When I managed to gather my thoughts, I went back to work to hand my notice in and made myself wilfully unemployed right in the middle of a global financial meltdown.

I don't know how to do anything else, so I became self employed and turned my skills to branding charities and community sector organisations. I use what I'm good at to help do good. And like I said before, I don't have to sell my services. People now come to me, and they go away happy. I benefit their organisations, and they're grateful.

What I do actually helps.....

WOW! Good on you - much respect for saying enough is enough.

Fancy thinking me up a company name and logo? I'm stuck and skint!

I think people understand that, TJ. The reason this has gone on so long is that people don't belive you when you say you're not influenced in any way by branding.

Going back to the drinks: You're saying that if the soft drink fridge in the newsagent were filled with Red Bull, Relentless, Monster, Coke etc etc, but all in identical clear plastic bottles, with standard form labels with just the Companies House registration number of the UK subsidiary, nutritional information and a brief description of the taste ("Tastes like sugary medicine, peppery", "Tastes like sugary medicine, strawberry" etc) you'd choose the same drink as you would have done if they were all branded up?

No ignoring the labels you don't recognise, no being put off by colours that jar, no comfort with familiar logos, just reading all the labels in turn and finding the best balance of caffiene, sugar and cost?

That's what you're claiming, and that's what people find hard to believe.

nedrapier - Member

That's what you're claiming, and that's what people find hard to believe.

Yup. I do my very best to do so.

[img] [/img]

That must get very dull. Freedom is slavery.

Edit: and I still don't believe you. well done for "trying your best" but I don't believe zero influence.

Binners - nearly the 700.

[img] [/img]

Does the girl come with it?

TandemJeremy - Member
TandemJeremy
the object is not the referent, the product is not the brand.

"no its not - its a brand, they sell a high energy caffeine drink that is branded as red bull" so there is no inherent attributes to teh object?

that doesnt even make sense, youre contradicting yourself - we'll agree to disagree

Not sure. Anyway, Beyonce, Jay Z and I have got the Champage on ice for 700. Its Armand De Brignac champagne. If that matters 😉

[img] [/img]

and, of course.....

[img] [/img]

Okay I've got a scenario for you TJ:

You are out and about, and you suddenly have a insatiable craving for a Falafel & Chicken Wrap.

There are three food outlets nearby and by some happy coincidence all three have signs announcing that they have just started stocking Falafel & Chicken Wraps that very same day.

The signs on these food outlets proclaim that they are:

1) McDonalds

2) Le Petit Poulet - home of the world's best chicken wrap. 2 Michelin Stars

3) Ernie and Bettie's Fairtrade Organic Wholefood Bistro and Tofu Knitting Supplies

Now you've never had a wrap from any of these places before and for all you know they could all be selling exactly the same wrap.

So tell us: how would you choose which one you'd buy from?

Would you really go to each store, ask to see a sample wrap, then dissect it, quiz them on the nutritional content and the freshness of ingredients, maybe ask for a tour of the kitchens and a copy of the most recent Environmental Health report?

seven'undred

[img] [/img]

Surely GrahamS, those stores are advertising what they ARE in the name.

If I want a Fairtrade and organic chicken wrap I will go to Number 3, just as I would go to a bike shop to get a bike rather than a travel agents....

I have no doubts that branding and advertising will have an effect on people, cognitively people like to hear words that they have heard before, so will be more likely to trust or pay a premium price if it is a well known brand. That is a fact.

But you can consciously chose to ignore this if you have motives (such as you want to pay the least amount, or you want to support local shop owners, or you want to reduce your carbon footprint by only eating things in season and grown in the UK). It would seem TJ has ulterior motives.... 😯

Graham- the only possible answer to that is "mu"

[img] [/img]

Graham- the only possible answer to that is "mu"

Okay.. well to state it differently:

Would you say that, since only the actual product matters, you are as happy to buy stuff from McDonalds as you are from a local organic fairtrade supplier or from a local award-winning business?

(Stumbles into thread in a rather hungover state. Reads first couple of pages. Loses will to live)

TJ; what in the name of the Sweet Little Baby Born In Bethlehem are you banging on about? Seriously?

I don't think I've ever seen anybody wronger than this on the forum.

You are so wrong, that in the Scale Of Wrongness, you are a Custard Yellow Fiat Multipla driven by a naked man with blue-painted testicles and an echidna up his bottom.

Please stop. Please.

I don't feel very well....

(Is too upset by it all, has to go and have a lie-down)

[img] [/img]

And I don't even know what an echidna is. That's how upset I am. 😥

[img] [/img]

PS, I read page 17, and surely TJ could chose RedBull based on prior experience of the drink...The question is why did he chose it in the first place.

It's hard to create arguments using real life examples as people HAVE had prior experiences directly or indirectly with a brand/product. Create one that has no basis in reality... should be interesting.

And getting back to signage;

[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThIG1Uyv6lY9N_cSYMXvDA6eOKrxj_3GOf7COOdeDVcik-o5HC&t=1 [/img]

EDIT- an echinda is a monotreme (same as a platypus) looks like a fat ugly hedgehog and despite being a mammal lays eggs. It feeds its young milk by diffusing it out of its sweat glands. YUM

TandemJeremy - Member
nedrapier - Member
That's what you're claiming, and that's what people find hard to believe.

Yup. I do my very best to do so.

bollox - and if you do, you've clearly got too much time on your hands

[img] [/img]

Hiya elf - you have missed a load of fun. Custard Yellow Fiat Multipla sounds fun. Can you sell me one? can you believe this is heading for 800 posts?

actually - re - reading that post - if they were all on the shelf in vanilla packaging, you would have no choice but to read the label. it probably wouldn't give you any idea of what the product tasted like though, unless you regularly mix your own E-numbers and stabilizers. This is the point of marketing/branding - it lets you make an informed decision on which drink to buy - it saves you time.

Tyredbiker - This was my favourite sign. I used to ride past it every day. Its not there any more 🙁

[img] [/img]

TJ - do you act like this on a day to day basis - your missus must be a bloody saint!

M6TTF - Member

This is the point of marketing/branding- it lets you make an informed decision on which drink to buy - it saves you time.

do you really believe that? 🙄