[Closed] Chinese Medicine

My understanding is that they work on a preventative approach rather than the western curative methodology. I fancy giving them a go but not sure if they are worth a punt or not as I don't know what to expect.

Nope they are just a bunch of herbs with little or no medicinal value and may actually be harmful. If there is anything actually wrong with you then your best bet will be to go to the doctor and if there is nothing wrong then why bother doing anything.

I fancy giving them a go but not sure if they are worth a punt or not as I don't know what to expect.

Tiger's dick, twice a day - you'll never get ill, ever again

Sounds like you have some experience of this, what's your research based on?

Who's Tiger and how big is he? 😉

Sounds like you have some experience of this, what's your research based on?

Gullible internet posts mainly 🙂

Some of it will work because it has an active ingredient that dose the job. Most of it is however placebo. Choose you treatments wisely.

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/264/

My girlfriend mum is Chinese and has a jar of dried sparrow saliva, costs a lot of money. Another thing he has use on my girlfriend was the droppings of some animal or other. ****ing B*****s.

http://www.savetherhino.org/eTargetSRINM/site/655/default.aspx

http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/how-do-you-regulate-wu/

🙁 I'd not want to support it in any way, but that's just my opinion. (Sweeping generalisation:) No one in any sort of pharma seems to have any morals...

The thing with herbs is,

In the western world we test all these herbs. The ones that work we call "medicine" and the ones that don't get thrown away.

Taking herbal medicine over tablets is like eating organic vegetables. Same net effect with a little less processing in the middle.

My thoughts are that Chinese Medicine has been around for 1000's of years, where as western medicine is still fairly new (comparatively) - so I can see that chosing one over the other is flawed as both should have their merits.

Tiger's dick, twice a day - you'll never get ill, ever again

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Taking herbal medicine over tablets is like eating organic vegetables. Same net effect with a little less processing in the middle.

Except that in the case of tablets you'll get a specific dose without any contaminants, the same cannot be said for a bunch of herbs.

My thoughts are that Chinese Medicine has been around for 1000's of years, where as western medicine is still fairly new (comparatively) - so I can see that chosing one over the other is flawed as both should have their merits.

Appeals to antiquity don't make for good medicine. Prior to the adoption of western style medicine, life expectancy was poor in China. It only improved once western methods were adopted.

[url= http://techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/11/ancient-chinese-secret.html ]Life expectancies.[/url]

Moreover,

By that argument we should still be using trepanning and leeches. That's been around for -ages-, so it must be fantastic!

My thoughts are that Chinese Medicine has been around for 1000's of years, where as western medicine is still fairly new (comparatively)

As the proud owner of a Chinese wife, I believe that a genuine Chinese medicine practioner will be able to offer you something to treat many illnesses.

The problem is that a lot of the people working in highstreet Chinese doctors have one qualification which got them the job - they're Chinese.

You need to find a genuine practioner.

Although don't walk in with a brain tumor and expect a cup of herbal tea to magic it away. A bad back, a nasty rash, bruises, a cold or flu - that's the sort of stuff you should be going there with.

I suffer from severe tinnitus (which last year included crippling dizzy spells), Western medicine can't offer me a thing - other than some medicine that made me sleepy and didn't stop it from coming back.

My wife's mum gave me some herbal tea which tasted like bins, and I didn't get so dizzy anymore.

Don't write it off just because you don't understand it...sometimes Western medicine can't give you what you need.

When I was on stress pills (yeah, I know), the ones the doctors provided were no where near the strength of the ones I purchased from the Chinese doctors.

Tasted vile and did the job. Some things it works wonders with other not so much.

That could be down to anything - you can't attribute it to western medicine - it could be down to socio-economic factors, diet or even political effects. There was so much turbulence during the 20th century that there is no way you can just put life expectancy down to medicine.

If TCM doesn't work, why have western medical insitutions started adopting acupuncture?

If TCM doesn't work, why have western medical insitutions started adopting acupuncture?

Because it's cheap and people are willing to pay for it.

and it works...

and it works...

Prove it.

I have had acupunture to treat my tinnitus...I now don't get woken up in the middle of the night by it.

You could come and watch me sleep if you like to get proof, but my wife won't like it.

So are you saying that we can't learn anything from Chinese or any other countries experiences? It's all codswallop because we didn't invent it and we don't understand it? Sounds like western arrogance to me.

BTW - I've not said I was going to ditch western medicine or rely mainly on TCM but that I was interested to understand what benefits it offers.

I'm still yet to see any evidence to support either side of the argument relating to illnesses such as those mentioned by McHamish - A bad back, a nasty rash, bruises, a cold or flu

and it works...

Prove it.

Prove it doesn't

Perhaps it's naturally got better, that's not unknown, but it seemed to work.

Although you're supposed to go back regularly to get treatments which I haven't. I've been considering EFT instead as I can do that myself.

[i]Although don't walk in with a brain tumor and expect a cup of herbal tea to magic it away. A bad back, a nasty rash, bruises, a cold or flu - that's the sort of stuff you should be going there with.[/i]

You mean stuff that mostly disappears on it's own accord? 🙂

I'm still yet to see any evidence to support either side of the argument relating to illnesses such as those mentioned by McHamish - A bad back, a nasty rash, bruises, a cold or flu

Does anyone use Deep Heat to treat a bad back for example?

The active ingredient is called methyl salicylate...the Chinese call it 'yun ling shan' or wintergreen.

I have had acupunture to treat my tinnitus...I now don't get woken up in the middle of the night by it.

With respect, that's the sort of flawed thinking that keeps Homeopathy in business.

Some afflictions simply go away over time. (I had a cold, so I rubbed my chest with hazelnuts and then buried them in the back yard, and what do you know, a few days later my cold cleared right up!)

The placebo effect is also very powerful (and oft misunderstood). You think it's going to work, or want it to, so it does. I expect prayer works in a similar fashion.

I'm not saying acupuncture doesn't work; I don't believe there's much in it personally but I don't think there's enough research been done on it to prove conclusively one way or the other. What I'm saying is, "I had tinnitus, had acupuncture and it went away" in isolation proves absolutely nothing other than you got better.

So are you saying that we can't learn anything from Chinese or any other countries experiences? It's all codswallop because we didn't invent it and we don't understand it? Sounds like western arrogance to me

No, that's not what people are saying. The problem that it's a load of ad-hoc traditions with no basis in science. Bring on the double blind trials, my mind is fully open.

It's got nothing to do with being anti-Chinese either. If a Chinese pharma company came out with a fully tested and effective drug, then that'd be fine with me. They may have done plenty already, I don't know 🙂

True.

I didn't go back for another treatment and the tinnitus has got worse again (it's never gone away completely).

That could just be a coincidence.

Western medicine can't treat it (well they could operate but that might result in permanent and complete deafness! At least the ringing will have gone away!), so I'd rather try something than just accept it.

I think this:

Does anyone use Deep Heat to treat a bad back for example?

The active ingredient is called methyl salicylate...the Chinese call it 'yun ling shan' or wintergreen.

... addresses this:

So are you saying that we can't learn anything from Chinese or any other countries experiences? It's all codswallop because we didn't invent it and we don't understand it? Sounds like western arrogance to me.

... quite nicely.

Western medicine will have influences from all over the world, and is constantly researching this stuff.

That could just be a coincidence.

It could be. It could be the acupuncture does work, or it could be the placebo effect. Actually, it could be both of the last two - acupuncture [i]does [/i]work, purely because of the placebo effect.

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen if you arranged for a few sessions where sometimes you got 'real' acupuncture and sometimes someone stuck a few needles in random places without telling you which they were doing.

As the proud [b]owner[/b] of a Chinese wife,

I assumed that was what the cool kids call "humour," n'est-ce pas?

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen if you arranged for a few sessions where sometimes you got 'real' acupuncture and sometimes someone stuck a few needles in random places without telling you which they were doing.

Well there is no agreement as to what "real" acupuncture is however trials on needle locations have been done many times, and surprise surprise, it doesn't matter where you stick the needles or even if you actualy use needles to pierce the skin the effect is the same.

Hasn't that already been done? The acupuncture blind study?

I've got two acupuncturists I see - one I see via Bupa and one privately (meaning I pay rather than my company)

The Bupa one is OK, but the private one is awesome! He really gets things going and most things are much better after one treatment - including numerous injuries where I'd been seeing my Bupa Ap regularly. I don't see him straight away as he is so busy he can't fit me in for weeks so I use the Bupa one until I can get into see him - well worth the wait.

Plus you can really feel the difference in that I jump off the table when the private Ap puts the needle in, the bupa one is just putting the needle in with no real affect.

The difference is the Private one trained for a number of years in Beijing. The Bupa one didn't.

The Private one is also working with numerous health bodies including the NHS and has carried out a number of successsful clinical trials on how Ap helps cancer and other patients. He also has been involved with the British Olympic squads. He is awesome! and a lot of his understanding is based on his knowledge of chinese medicine.

The difference is the Private one trained for a number of years in Beijing. The Bupa one didn't.

The difference is, the Private one hurts more so you believe it's doing more good. And, hey, it is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Mechanism_of_the_effect

Well there is no agreement as to what "real" acupuncture is however trials on needle locations have been done many times, and surprise surprise, it doesn't matter where you stick the needles or even if you actualy use needles to pierce the skin the effect is the same.

Personally disagree - there is a BIG difference.

has carried out a number of successsful clinical trials on how Ap helps cancer and other patients

Really?

As they say on Wikipedia, citation needed.

Personally disagree - there is a BIG difference.

... based on what?

The difference is the Private one trained for a number of years in Beijing. The Bupa one didn't.

The difference is, the Private one hurts more so you believe it's doing more good. And, hey, it is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Mechanism_of_the_effect
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LOL! So why don't I get better when I had it first with the Bupa Ap?

... based on what?

My own experiences..

And how many times have you had Ap where you could compare good with bad? LOL!

If only I was willing to let someone stick needles into me in random places!

The NHS ENT consultant has told me that my tinnitus is caused by inner ear fluid pressure, it's in the balance receptors apparently that's why I sometimes get dizzy (look up menieres). Also some of the ringing I hear is apparently blood rushing through blood vessels in my ear.

They gave medicine to treat it...but unfortunately it only made me sleepy and the tinnitus didn't go away.

The ENT consultant was an expert in tinnitus but he can't really offer me any more, other than to give up coffee, chocolate, cheese, and cut down on salt.

Chinese medicine claims that tinnitus is caused by an imbalance in kidney 'chi', from a quick search papers were published (the Neijing Suwen) by the chinese in 100 BC detailing this and the associated treatments. As you all know your kidneys filter your blood for impurities and help regulate blood pressure. The pills that the NHS doctor gave me were supposed to regulate the blood pressure in my inner ear (i could understand how it could be that specific, but who was I to argue)

Anyway, much of the chinese medicine treatments for tinnitus are related to healthy kidneys and regulating blood pressure. And my wife's mum told me ages ago I should give up coffee and start drinking green tea (although that seems to be the cure for anything wrong with me!).

To be honest it all seems too much of a cooincidence that Western and Eastern medicine seems to point to similar, if not the same causes.

Unless we have some very old pharmaceutical scientists on STW, I don't really think anyone can categorically state that Eastern medicine has not influenced Western medicine, and that Eastern medicine is complete nonsense.

Has anyone seen Once upon a Time in China with Jet Li? It's about a Chinese kung fu master called Wong Fei Hung (he did exist and was born in 1847 according to wiki), he was also a chinese medicine expert. In these films they had scenes where western scientists went to his lectures on Chinese medicine and the flow of chi. I don't think this was too far from the truth, and I expect Western scientists and doctors did go to China to learn all about Eastern medicine.

Oh...and the 'owner of a Chinese wife' comment was an attempt at being funny.

I don't claim to own her...although she's married to me and no one else can have her so go get your own.

Er, the human body is a bit more complicated than 'it's to do with blood pressure, and kidneys are too, so therefore poking kidneys cures tinnitis'

[i]Unless we have some very old pharmaceutical scientists on STW, I don't really think anyone can categorically state that Eastern medicine has not influenced Western medicine, and that Eastern medicine is complete nonsense.[/i]

It's not 'complete' nonsense, very few things are completely true, or completely false. But if you are going to make a claim about it's efficiency, you've also got to include all the garbage such as Tiger Penis curing erectile problems etc.

LOL! So why don't I get better when I had it first with the Bupa Ap?

Because you didn't really believe it was going to work, perhaps? Who knows.

My own experiences..

So, you've had experiences where people stuck needles randomly in your body and didn't tell you?

(If they didn't tell you - how do you know?)

And how many times have you had Ap where you could compare good with bad? LOL!

I haven't - otherwise I'd be recounting my findings rather than saying it'd be interesting to test it.

my reply- re owning was also a joke.

I don't really think anyone can categorically state that Eastern medicine has not influenced Western medicine, and that Eastern medicine is complete nonsense.

Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) is largely based on the philosophical concept that the universe is made of an energy called qi. This energy can be any state of matter or energy in existence. TCM believes that the body is a small universe unto itself that is a complex of subsystems of energy and matter, and that these systems work together to maintain a healthy mind and body. The characteristics of the operation of the mind/body are described in terms of the five elements (metal, water, wood, fire, and earth), Yin/Yang organs, deficiency/excess, emptiness/fullness, hot/cold, wind, dampness, pathogens, internal/external, meridian channels, qi (several different types), essences, body fluids, vessels and more

Er, the human body is a bit more complicated than 'it's to do with blood pressure, and kidneys are too, so therefore poking kidneys cures tinnitis'

Not sure that was my point, or what I said, but fair enough.

It's not 'complete' nonsense, very few things are completely true, or completely false. But if you are going to make a claim about it's efficiency, you've also got to include all the garbage such as Tiger Penis curing erectile problems etc.

I agree, I'm not claiming that Chinese medicine is all good, some of it is complete nonsense, and I think it should be provided with a caveat that it can't cure everything.

I remember a story where a Chinese family used Chinese medicine to treat their daughters illness, it was something like asthma. The daughter died, whereas if they had gone to a Western hospital she probably wouldn't have.

My point is that Eastern medicine shouldn't and can't all be dismissed as nonsense, and that Western medicine has learned from it.

My point is that Eastern medicine shouldn't and can't all be dismissed as nonsense

I agree - but as far as I'm aware, that doesn't happen. Well, not by anyone important, anyway.

I am of the understanding that there is some decent evidence for accupuncture but more testing is needed to be sure. It can't do any harm

I would avoid the herbal stuff tho - so very dodgy reports / cases about what happens with that.

The is really no such thing as western medicine vs eastern medicine.

There is medicine that has proved its efficacy via controlled experiments in double blind trials and there is everything else.

There are no holy shibboleths in medicine if an alternative treatment is proved to work via the scientific method it ceases to become "alternative" and simpy becomes medicine.

See Ben Goldacres book "Bad Science"

Rich, whilst I agree totally, I use the terms because it's easier to write "eastern medicine" than "unproved practices common in eastern countries which may or may not have any effect beyond placebo" when trying to discuss things. It's catchier, no?

(I own Bad Science and consider it essential reading)

(I own Bad Science and consider it essential reading)

Trick or Treatment is better.

Anyway... back to what I originally posted...

TCM works on the basis of preventative approach - this is the bit which sounds interesting. I would love to have a check up and see what issues they could find, bit like having your car MOT'd. If I could improve my overall health and well being then great.

It may be that I use western medicine to achieve any improvements but the approach of looking at what could be done to improve rather than fixing something when it falls apart sounds good.

Western medicine is based on I have an issue lets cure it! what if I didn't realise I had a problem which was affecting my health (and my ability to ride a bike)?

It does sound good, doesn't it.

You can do this now without resorting to [s]quackery[/s] alternative medicine. BUPA offer it as a service, for one (it came up in my benefits package at work recently as something I could buy) (so, not much of a benefit, but hey).

Chinese medicine uses herbs etc to aid the body to heal itself by going to the root cause of the problem.

Western medicine "patch" the problem with instant relieve but may not solve the root cause of the problem.

Chinese medicine takes a while to take effect but when it does it should have minimum size effect.

Western medicine takes effect instantly but you need another dose of other medication to combat the side effect.

Chinese medicine repairs the "chi" (energy flow) while Western medication sometimes do more harm to the "chi" than good.

I have taken/drank tonnes of Chinese herbal medicine as a kid due to internal organ injuries and it solved the problem.

To find a good Chinese doctor is VERY difficult so unless the person is trusted you may need to take things in smaller dosage.

🙂

[i]Chinese medicine uses herbs etc to aid the body to heal itself by going to the root cause of the problem.

Western medicine "patch" the problem with instant relieve but may not solve the root cause of the problem.[/i]

I look forward to seeing the first TCM A&E department 🙂

Chinese medicine takes a while to take effect but when it does it should have minimum size effect.

You could say the same of anything that has no effect. Back when I had cancer, I drank lots of herbal tea. I can happily report that, unlike conventional treatments, I saw NO SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER! (Well, apart from weeing a lot.)

Is it just me or did everyone suddenly get f'cking stupid today?

(note to the humour-impaired, I haven't had cancer)

In the western world we test all these herbs. The ones that work we call "medicine" and the ones that don't get thrown away.

.

Are you sure ? I didn't think it worked like that 😕

I was under the impression that in the western world we test all these herbs, and the ones which work and, we can figure out why they work, we call "medicine". The ones which don't or, we can't understand why they should work, get thrown away.

My understanding is that anything without a logical explanation to back it up, doesn't "work".

BTW I have literally come in from a session of acupuncture, so needless to say, I'm not much bothered by what people tell me I should or should not believe in.

Chinese medicine is probably great, the shop we went to not so. Funnily enough we’ve never found another reason to go back;
My son had infantile eczema and was prescribed a creme with steroids in it by the dermatologist. My wife went to the Chinese herbal/ doctor shop to see if they had any non-steroid treatment. She came home with some creme and herbs (I put the herbs that we were meant to bathe him in in a cupboard and we didn’t use them);

The tube of creme only had instructions in Chinese and after lots and lots of searching I found that it contained steroids in a larger dose than you are supposed to buy over the counter in the UK,

A few weeks later I went to look at the herbs, opened the bag and found them crawling in bugs. Maybe they were tested and the bug eggs were an essential ingredient.

Like I said before it is VERY difficult to find an authentic Chinese doctor that mainly prescribes herbs with real knowledge.

Most Chinese medication is to prevent, to some extend cure if illness is at late stage, the illness escalating so it takes time for it to work. But most only found out they have certain illness at a very late stage and in those situation the only way to deal with the problem is to open your body up. i.e. operation.

In the West, because of fascination with Chinese medicine or exotic remedies, many half baked so called "traditional doctors" started to spring up all over the place and Mr & Mrs Britons thought they found the miracle cures but what they do not know is that they found a new cowboy in town.

Cougar - Member

You could say the same of anything that has no effect. Back when I had cancer, I drank lots of herbal tea. I can happily report that, unlike conventional treatments, I saw NO SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER! (Well, apart from weeing a lot.)

A real Chinese does not mean green tea and all those shite you got from the shop ready made. Also a true Chinese doctor with great knowledge will not use exotic/extinct animal parts or animal parts at all. As for the dosage they are usually individual adjusted and customised according to your chi so there should ideally be no one single herbal to fit all.

Is it just me or did everyone suddenly get f'cking stupid today?

No, everyone has just become f'cking stupid if they think that there is only one way to cure illness.

🙄

hello everyone,As this forum is related to chinese medicines i hv a question,plz reply me asap

Do Chinese antiviral herbs help treat cancer?
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oh dear now look what u've gone and done 🙂

also i haven't read all of this thread but aren't most drugs that we use synthesised from plants/herbs,

About 5 years ago my started to get a rash on his legs which got worse and developed into eczema. GP prescribed some E45 cream initially and then some other ointment. Things werent getting better and the GP suggested the next stage was prescribing steroid based medicine.

A friend of mine who had suffered from the same problem since we were kids told me to visit a Chinese clinic , which he claimed would cure the problem. This fella gave us two weeks supply of herbal drinks , a bath soak and a small pot of cream.

Sure enough it cured the problem and hes never had it since.

So in this case yes Chinese medicine did work.

ernie_lynch - Member

In the western world we test all these herbs. The ones that work we call "medicine" and the ones that don't get thrown away.

.

Are you sure ? I didn't think it worked like that

I was under the impression that in the western world we test all these herbs, and the ones which work and, we can figure out why they work, we call "medicine". The ones which don't or, we can't understand why they should work, get thrown away.

My understanding is that anything without a logical explanation to back it up, doesn't "work".

BTW I have literally come in from a session of acupuncture, so needless to say, I'm not much bothered by what people tell me I should or should not believe in.

Nope, there's plenty of treatments that have beneficial side effects medicine can't explain (yet). They're still used. As above, there's medicine (proved to work) and everything else (not proved to work).

lalazar >

When I was at school I suffered from eczema for several years. In that time I ate chips. The eczema cleared up, I've not had it since I was a teen. By your argument, eating chips a) cures eczema and b) is as effective as Chinese medicine.

...and a small pot of cream.

Whilst we're in anecdotal evidence mode, read back a few to Stuuey's post. His son had eczema and "the tube of creme [from a Chinese Doctor] contained steroids in a larger dose than you are supposed to buy over the counter in the UK." Interesting how the cream in your tale is almost an afterthought, clearly it must be the herbal tea curing your eczema rather than the large dose of steroids.

I accept Stuueys point but in all honesty that small tub of cream is still at home barely used. Whilst I dont know how long you ate chips for my sons problems diminished over the fortnight he used the medicine and never came back.

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean [/url]