[Closed] Childminder question ref holiday entitlement

Here's an idea, one of you could stop working and actually look after your kids, like proper parents? Or would that be too much of a restriction on your ability to buy the latest bling-machine to show off in the car parks of the gnarly SE?

You know Grum it's a fair point but before we go any further, and in a non-pejorative way, do you have children? Just helps to establish where you're coming from in terms of the discussion.

I guess the bottom line is that we couldn't really afford for one of us not to work. Mostly that's about mortgage costs, which to some extent was our choice and to some extent was something driven by the market. We could have chosen to remain in a very small house. Still a nice house and one that would have served a purpose, but we didn't so there you go. Sometimes you have to make decisions that are right for a whole bunch of reasons that aren't always apparent to others.

FWIW I certainly don't mind paying the child care costs. My son is very happy, gets to play with other children, has lots of adventures with the child minder etc. We still spend a good deal more time with him than a lot of other parents I know because although we pay for full time care, I work from home and my wife's hours mean she is usuall back around 2pm.

There's an argument that actually our son will be more rounded and have a better upbringing when we (his parents) have help with that process. The parents I know who have one stay home parent and one work parent, all either have very high single incomes and/or have a great deal of help from parents, an option we don't have readily available.

But again Grum I think you're sort of hitting on a good point. We've created a situation in the UK where it's very difficult for one parent to give up work and make the situation financially viable.

BTW I really was joking when I made the remarks about class.

Hmmmm ... C_G is pontificating ... should I put in my twopennyworth?

Grum/MF/geetee - yep, we want to create as much financial wellbeing as we realistically can while building a solid home life. No harm in that methinks - provided it's done sensibly.

IMO it's a good deal harder to 'survive' in this climate. We can't just think of today, not with mortgages and everything else. Hence providing for tomorrow has to come into our thinking.

I'm also in agreement that a quality minder can bring something very valuable to the lad's development. Plus we, like geetee, spend plenty of time with him and want to do our best all round.

We've created a situation in the UK where it's very difficult for one parent to give up work and make the situation financially viable.

+1

While I have no kids many of my friends do. While its a small sample statistically all the children where one parent worked part time / not at all outside the home to look after them the children are happy and well balanced, the children who were looked after by strangers so both parents could pursue their careers have issues.
To have the first £20 000+ of your earnings accounted for in childcare costs sounds crazy to me. I know families who live on that sort of money

While I have no kids many of my friends do. While its a small sample statistically all the children where one parent worked part time / not at all outside the home to look after them the children are happy and well balanced, the children who were looked after by strangers so both parents could [s]pursue their careers[/s] [i]earn enough to pay a mortgage[/i] have issues

FTFY

Just about to refill the cup and open another packet of bickies... Thanks TJ!

Binners - the £1200 a month childcare costs is a similar cost to a decent mortgage in itself is it not?

I know some people have to return to work but I know plenty who do not have to who chose to. If you wish to have children it seems reasonable to suggest you could perhaps look after them yourself and work out how you will do this first.
Yes I have kids Yes I do less work s. Why would i want to work when I can spend time with my kids teaching then to ride bikes and letting off whoppee cushions in libraries? I bet the best child minder in the world will not share all the same values as you. Yes I have used child minders as well but mainly because juniour senior was poor at socialising

Nice work Grumm/Binners but you should have really gone for the jugular too polite

TJ we could have fun why do you now want to claim that all the children will have "issues" - your sample size makes you claim utter BS and no I dont want to argue about how your personal experience/choices or prejudices can be wrong thanks - somewhat over played the card 🙄
Lets just goad the parents for being hearltess and avericous instead ?

D'you really think they've not thought of this, Junkyard?

It is indeed. But You have to look at it as part of a longer-term picture TJ. I'd say it mainly effects women. That cost is a hit you take for a few years in order to maintain your place on any career path, and its attendant Salary.

What this says about the attitude to women in the vast majority of British employers is pretty depressing. Take a break to have kids = end of career

Yes molgrips they have thought lets have a kid but lets not look after it ourself I say nothing but nothing is more importnat than bringing up your kids.
Whilst I accept everyone has the right to do as they please I just think you should bring your kids up without using hired hands ...call me old fashioned 😉
Ps the couple I know both earn 50k which is massive up north but still both [imho] value their career more than their kids I suspect one day the kids may twig but I hope not. themother once said I love my kids to bits but I could not spend all day with them for example.

I dont want to argue I accept some people have no choice which is awful for them but I am sure we have all heard parents return after half term saying how relieved they are to get back to work etc that is more what I am getting at than child care per se. I am much poorer for my decision but do not regret it.

well... either old fashioned, or a lot better off than most Junkyard. Most people can't afford to bring kids up without childcare.

And I like how nursery staff/childminders are being referred to as 'hired hands' and 'strangers'. I'd use 'trained professionals', but even that doesn't them justice. The staff of the nursery my kids went to were some of the loveliest people I've ever met. And my kids adored them.

[i]I just think you should bring your kids up without using hired hands ...call me old fashioned [/i]

So you'll be home educating then?

or does sanctimony become optional once they reach 4 and a bit years old and a professional can be brought in?

Whilst everyone is on their soapboxes don't forget it's only for a couple of years until the heartless parents kick them out into places with cowboys and strangers and all sorts in schools.

Quality, not quantity. Next doors kids are looked after 24/7 by their parents. Well, when I say parents I actually mean Mr Sony TV and Mrs Panasonic DVD player....

the children who were looked after by strangers so both parents could pursue their careers have issues.

The key to that statement is the word stranger. Our childminder is not a stranger to either me, my wife or our son. It's the key reason why we didn't consider a nursery place; we our son to bond with someone, which he has done.

Also I know that £20k is enough to live on, but not down here it's not, at least not in any location that I would want to bring my son up in.

It's a choice. We could move to a rough suburb of London and expose our son to all the nasty shite that goes on there (I think it's five teenagers that have been stabbed and killed so far this year) or we can live in a decent suburb, well outside the M25 and pay twice the living costs.

OK, here's my experiences.

Didn't think I could have kids but wasn't unduly worried as am definitely not an earth mother type. Fell pregnant, left a good job and had no intention of going back. Ex had good job but we were prepared to 'make do'. Neither of us were into possessions or fancy holidays etc. etc.

Aged 2, son had poor health and needed investigating. Subsequently he needed regular hospital operations and associated appointments. Accompanying a terrified 2 year old to an operating theatre and staying with him until anaesthetic kicked in - only Mum will do! Being there when he woke up too, again only Mum will do!

He continued to need operations until his mid-teens. Oh and daughter had a few ops as well.

We didn't have family nearby but managed the best we could. But, this is the thing, when you are a full-time Mum, you build up a support network of friends who can help and obviously one reciprocates when needed.

My kids are in their mid-20's now and we have some interesting discussions. My son still speaks warmly of his childhood, the fun times he had and how I was always there for them both and, indeed, still am.

But the downside? The workplace. My skills became redundant although I consider my skillset now to be wide-ranging, it's not always quantifiable.

The future? Well I guess at some point my kids will start families but I do know one thing, I am not prepared to do child-minding duties! Got some lovely bikes to ride instead. 😀

So, to summarise, I did what was best for my kids.

Let's get this straight, anecdotal evidence and small sample sizes is no good at all for deciding whether or not to wear a helmet, but for childcare it's fine?

We were lucky enough to buy our house just before the market went insane. We also bought based on only one of use working and work in a profession with a national pay scale while living in a cheap part of the country.

This meant my wife could drop to part-time, flexible work while the kids were young.

If we had different jobs, lived somewhere else, were a few years younger or left having kids later, or whatever, we'd not have been able to afford to.

And, our kids would have been just fine.

a lot better off than most Junkyard

So you'll be home educating then?

sanctimony become optional

[i]Let's get this straight, anecdotal evidence and small sample sizes is no good at all for deciding whether or not to wear a helmet, but for childcare it's fine? [/i]

good point, well made.

c_g - I think most parents in your position would have accepted the need for Mum/Dad to 'be there' and made changes necessary to achieve this. Fortunately most of us never meet that sort problem and don't have to. Everyone makes the decision that's right for them, I wouldn;t criticise any parent who chose to stay home (or any that chose to go to work).

[edit] junkyard - I was just wondering why being just over 4 meant that suddenly handing your kids over to someone else was ok, really? and fwiw there is a national curriculum for under 4's that all pre-school child carers have to adhere to so they are educating children too - does that make it better?

Anyone in here passing judgement on other people's life choices in such a grey-shaded area should not presume so much. Many choices are not free, some will be the greater of two evils, others might be obvious to one but not another.

And being rude about someone's take on parenting based on their child care arrangements is particularly unpleasant.

I recommend moving to more fruitful but benign ground - like helmets and the national deficit.

So, to summarise, I did what was best for my kids.

That's the key. Regardless of working / non working, it's parents who try to do the right thing for their kids who succeed, how they go about it is a matter for them. The only kids I know who have problems are due to poor parenting, nothing to do with what career choices have been made.

Yes molgrips they have thought lets have a kid but lets not look after it ourself I say nothing but nothing is more importnat than bringing up your kids.

I'm sure that you know 100% of bugger all about the OP's decisions and situation. I'm also pretty sure that they are sick to death of being judged and preached at by total strangers who have nothing better to do than spout some offensive crap accusing them of being poor parents.

Really - sometimes it's better to shut the F up. Stop typing, walk away from the thread. You're not making it nice.

Guys - I clearly said -

While its a small sample statistically

Nor did I

claim that all the children will have "issues" -

I said that of the families [b]I know[/b] the ones where the parents have done the childcare the children and the nicest and best adjusted and where childcare was done outside the family the children have issues. I claimed no extrapolation from that. its purely an observation

geetee - I assume you would rather the situation was different - which is awful for you - you are one that has no choice and have my sympathy

I appreciate the sentiment but no, on reflection and being honest, I like things as they are.

I was actually out of work when my son was born, so I got to spend the fist six months of my life as a full time dad and that was just amazing, even if it was incredibly stressful at a few crucial points. But the experience of being around full time gave me a lot of insight.

Being a full time parent is incredibly hard work; I certainly wouldn't take the decision to give up work and be a full time dad lightly. But I would consider it. I think the wife however likes the fact that she has a job and therefore still has a lot of independence/self identity, which for a lot of people is one of the most important facets of work. It's quite amazing sometimes how much our sense of worth is tied up in our work.

But the biggest issue as far as I can see it what happens in the future. I'm genuinely worried about the pension time bomb we're all going to face and so see the need to work as being the need to avoid that massive black hole, rather than afford a big home and expensive cars now (BTW we don't have expensive cars!)

TJ, I honestly think the 'issues' are most likely you superimposing your political beliefs onto the field of childcare. If you haven't raised children yourself, and your anictotale evidence is 'unreliable' why are you posting?

[i]why are you posting? [/i]

I sometimes think it's because he can't not post, tbh.

Its a form of tourettes

Like a Peanut in a pint of lager, I see TJ's posts post-flounce have risen back to the pre-flounce level. Are we not due a re-flounce anytime soon and TJ's post count to plummet to the bottom of the lagery pint once more?

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

I was 19 when my mam went back to work. (I do have four younger brothers and sisters though.)

My mum went out to work when I was about 9 or 10 - my little sister was about 3.

My wife went back to work when our eldest was about 6 months old but took 2 years off when our second child was born (we were financially more secure by then).

[edit] she had had children every 18 months to 2 years in between me and my littlest sister so opportunities for work returning had been limited.

Anyone in here passing judgement on other people's life choices in such a grey-shaded area should not presume so much. Many choices are not free, some will be the greater of two evils, others might be obvious to one but not another.

And being rude about someone's take on parenting based on their child care arrangements is particularly unpleasant.

I was just being unpleasant to geetee because he really really pissed me off once. I wouldn't claim to know about his parenting abilities/situation.

I'm fairly sure though there are people out there who claim they are doing all sorts of things 'for their kids' who are actually doing them for themselves. I struggle to understand the motivation of some people to have kids who then get rid of them as much as possible.

I think a lot of people get trapped into believing that their lifestyle outgoings are essentials. I don't have any 'evidence' for this other than observations.

Think my mum went back to work when I was 8(ish). I was to busy building go-karts and making model planes to notice 🙂

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

Mine did although I was already at school when my mum went back.

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

I [i]think[/i] that my mother gave up work for a while, then when my younger sister and I went to nursery she went back to work part time until we were both at school full time. Both my parents were teachers though so that probably made things a little easier.

lodious - Member

TJ, I honestly think the 'issues' are most likely you superimposing your political beliefs onto the field of childcare.

If you haven't raised children yourself, and your anictotale evidence is 'unreliable' why are you posting?

**** knows. I thught it might add to the debate but infact just gave people the opportunity to snipe at me on totaly spurious grounds. Lesson for me

TJ - all you contributed was a comment about how children who were cared for other than by their parents all turned out to be wrong 'uns. Which you immediately said was irrelevant in the greater scheme of things due to the small number of children involved.

I can't see how it helped move anything on?

My mum didn't work until my younger brother went to secondary school.

On to other things...

I find all of this very interesting right now. I was a good earner (circa £50k) as I have my own business. At the same time my wife fell pregnant with twins the economic downturn kicked in and I now earn quite considerably less. Less than most of my employees at the moment, but I have to live with that and wait for the better times to return.

My wife was also a pretty good earner.

We didn't initially want my wife to return to work but we simply couldn't afford it - we managed a year and then she saw an ideal job - working part-time (2.5 days a week) and term time only in a local school but doing what she was doing in her last job (so helps to keep her CV current). So, when we take off childcare costs (they go to nursery one day a week, their gran & grandad one day and I have a half day with them), she brings home about 1/4 of what she was earning but it helps and she gets to spend lots of time with the girls and gets to enjoy being a mum.

With all of this, we have accepted we cannot afford to move out of our small-ish two bed end terrace into a larger family home, but the girls DO get to have the sort of upbringing we want them to have.

Conversely we have the most ambitious sister in law - she was determined for years to have a 4 bed detached and recently bought one. The husband (my wife's brother) works abroad loads so often misses birthdays and is often away for a week at a time. She works full time so the kids go to nursery (two of them) and school (the other one) and she barely ever sees them.

But at some 15 years younger than me, they have a house I couldn't afford - but with a huge mortgage that will see their youngest be around 40 (they took out a 35 year term) before they pay it off whereas I have a manageable mortgage that will be paid off in full before my girls go into higher education (although we would hope to pay it off before then).

I have no idea how our respective families will grow up (and don't get me wrong, they ARE a lovely couple with a lovely family) but I would like to think we are emotionally giving more to help our children get a nice family upbringing.

junkyard - I was just wondering why being just over 4 meant that suddenly handing your kids over to someone else was ok, really? and fwiw there is a national curriculum for under 4's that all pre-school child carers have to adhere to so they are educating children too - does that make it better

Education, medicine etc may be too much to reasonably expect no matter how much of a polymath the parents are.

You could cope with everything at primary school, surely? So, why farm the kid off to school then?

**** knows. I thught it might add to the debate but infact just gave people the opportunity to snipe at me on totaly spurious grounds. Lesson for me

You're all a bit quick to jump down TJ's throat these days, FFS take a look at yourselves, it's quite unpleasant.

We're in the fortunate position of not being able to choose 🙂 My wife wouldn't earn more than the childcare costs for various reasons, but we'd like to think she'd stay at home if the situation was different anyway. Living in a 2 bed flat I think we'd struggle to wedge more than 2 kids in here. We are looking at options for a few years away, childcare work for her being a very attractive one at the moment!

I must admit I'm a bit surprised at some of the comments. I earn about £30k and don't see any looming financial problems, we'll just have to cut the cloth accordingly. It helps that my wife grew up in communist Poland, she understands austerity 😉

And yeah, picking on TJ a bit quickly I'd say.

Bloody hell, I only went away for a few hours and look what you lot have got up to ...

<perches on the sofa at the back of the room>