It does rather look like that.....!
I struggle with long sentences
What rudebwoy is trying to say is that, the OP is saying that the people who smashed in his window are people from a council estate AKA chavs.
When this in fact may not be the case. Since saying that chavs broke my window - without any evidence, is the same as saying pikeys stole my bike and that all ****s are drug dealers. - edit maybe not on the same level, but you get the idea.
All of which are prejudice generalisations, which serve only to demonise social groups.
Sorry but I'm with rudeboy. An often quoted explanation of the word chav (which may well not be accurate, but that hardly matters) is Council Housed And Violent.
Young people in this country are massively demonised, especially those that wear tracksuits and don't talk proper. If people weren't all so scared/prejudiced they might find some of them are actually nice folk.
Slagging off scummy chavs seems to be the last acceptable face of prejudice in this country.
As above, would it be ok for the thread title to be 'gypos stole my xxxxx' with zero evidence of who it was?
I have to take issue with you there, as I know loads of people from council estates who I most definitely would not describe as chavs. Equally there are several of my neighbours (private housing estate) who I most certainly would.people from a council estate AKA chavs
We can all be guilty of prejudices and misconceptions 😉
Well if the window smashers are reading this, and they do not consider themselves chavs they will no doubt be mortally offended.
On the other hand, those who missed PaddedRudeFred will be happy to see him back
Council Housed And Violent.
Isn't the [i]And Violent[/i] part of Council Housed And Violent quite significant? Or is violent and anti-social behaviour now to be defended?
Isn't the And Violent part of Council Housed And Violent quite significant? Or is violent and anti-social behaviour now to be defended?
Right, but you're saying this term has [i]never[/i] been used to stigmatise people from poorer areas, who dress in a certain way, but who aren't violent? Hmmmmm......
I think we're both objecting to the use of a culturally derogatory, insulting and devisive term
Out of interest what do you think is the culture that the OP was denigrating?
If he'd called them pikeys them perhaps I would have understood. But leaping to the defences of 'chavs'... Well, only on STW. It's like people trawl through threads, desperately seeking the next thing to feel morally indignant and superior about. Get a bloody grip. No one is singling out any specific under represented group. No one even knows who actually smashed the bleeding window, it could have been Mrs Miggins, the 87y/o mad granny from over the road for all we know, and the OP could still refer to her as a Chav if he wanted to. It's up to him. I think it was actually quite restrained terminology!
Right, but you're saying this term has never been used to stigmatise people from poorer areas, who dress in a certain way, but who aren't violent?
Only if you question so.
Right, but you're saying this term has never been used to stigmatise people from poorer areas, who dress in a certain way, but who aren't violent?Only if you question so.
What does that mean?
Think some people could do with reading this.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demonization-Working-Owen-Jones/dp/1844678644
What does that mean?
I couldn't work out if you were making a statement or asking a question. The point is the same, I wouldn't use the term chav to describe people who live in council housing.
Forgive me. There may indeed be others who share your opinions. I'd say yo're in a minority of you consider 'chav' to merely be a fashion sub-culture however.
That's not what I said though was it.
What I said was "What I am talking about is the way he dresses, [b]and the way he acts.[/b]"
So his judgement differs somewhat to your own? As yours is based purely on aesthetics?
Thats not what i said though was it ?
What I said was "What I am talking about is the way he dresses, [b]and the way he acts.[/b]"
and why do you label your son's friend in such a manner?
Because he dresses like a Chav, and acts like a Chav.
(If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....... Etc.
Strange how you seem so keen to defend the use of what is considered generally in the UK to be a derogatory term.
Well, I don't know about you, but I would generally use some sort of derogatory term to describe someone who smashed my windows 🙄
Seems to be a major problem with some peoples understanding of language and discourse, because you Nealglover choose to have your own 'understanding' of words, rather than the accepted norm, whilst you will defend your use of language, it does not stand the scrutiny of your peers.
it would be interesting if you could come to my estate and engage with the youths here, they do dress in a similar fashion but their social attitudes are light years ahead of yours.
their social attitudes are light years ahead of yours
Good for them.
Although you have no idea what my "Social Attitudes" are really do you.
As it happens, I appear to live on a similar estate to the one you describe.
Am I still allowed to have my own opinion now you know I don't live in a £1m mock tudor Barrat Mansion.
what is chav- a derogatory term for a working class youth- you better off just using vandal-- as that covers all , without casting aspersions- unless you have witnesses etc
Vandals, weren't they the tribes that sacked Rome. Bit harsh on them, doubt they broke many double glazed windows.
Although you have no idea what my "Social Attitudes" are really do you.
Your use of language and your political stance on a number of issues does give rise to a 'social attitude' --we all have one, i can only go on your written stance on this forum, granted, but unless you are playing some giant hoax what other evidence is there ?
Your use of the word 'chav'-- you say its an urban sub group- like mods, punks etc( dress and language) to All i know its a term of abuse, used on poor and disadvantaged kids.
.....your political stance on a number of issues does give rise to a 'social attitude'
Would you like to be more specific ?
Your use of the word 'chav'-- you say its an urban sub group- like mods, punks etc[b]( dress and language) [/b]
That's not what I said though is it ?
Once again ......
What I said was that I classed my friends son as a Chav because he dresses like a Chav, and [b]ACTS [/b]like a Chav.
All i know its a term of abuse, used on poor and disadvantaged kids.
Not by me though.
Unless you know different ?
Vandals, weren't they the tribes that sacked Rome. Bit harsh on them, doubt they broke many double glazed windows.
I think that 'joke' has been done already. and it wasn't actually all that funny the first time really.
Because he dresses like a Chav, and acts like a Chav.
And how exactly does a 'chav' act? Care to enlighten us?
That's not what I said though is it ?
I'm not sure what it is exactly, that you've said, to be honest.
FFS.
It's 'Charva'.
I'm not sure what it is exactly, that you've said, to be honest.
It's not that hard Mike, you just need to [b]Read[/b] it.
It's all there 🙄
No, i've read it, i'm just not sure what it is exactly that you're trying to say.
I'd quyite like to know how exactly you would define a 'chav'.
I'd quyite like to know how exactly you would define a 'chav'.
Someone who chucks stones at my porch doors? 😀
No, i've read it, i'm just not sure what it is exactly that you're trying to say.
That says more about you than it does about me I'm afraid.
I'd quyite like to know how exactly you would define a 'chav'.
Why ?
What possible difference would my personal definition of a Chav make to you ?
Someone who chucks stones at my porch doors?
But as it happens, that would be a start.
let me get this right-- the OP and yourself (ng) would like a new term for people who smash windows regardless of context?
Why ?
It might actually help me understand your argument better. You use the term yet have offered no explanation as to why you feel justified in doing so. You claim it's about someone's appearance and behaviour, yet offer no explanation why such things would label somone with what is widely-accepted as a very derogatory term.
It seems there is the generally accepted definition, and your own. You appear to be claiming they are different. i am somewhat perplexed that you are using a particular term yet claiming your definition isn't the one which almost everyone else accepts.
Try these definitions of chav - positively dripping with snobbery and prejudice.
The male of the species, the 'chav', is often to be found lurking in braying packs close to fast food outlets or late night stores. It displays a distinctive livery with which it attempts to attract the female ('chavette') - most commonly, the Burberry-effect baseball cap (placed at a jaunty angle, sometimes partially covering the face - this is known in some cultures as 'snidey'); the 'sports' clothing (this is somewhat confusing as the chav is not renowned for its athletic abilities) and countless items of 'bling' (Chav patois meaning jewellery or other adornments). The origins of said 'bling' are various as the chav typically possesses neither a means of employment or indeed any type of education. Chavettes, meanwhile, tend to have hair in at least two colours, ill-fitting tops and white tracksuit tops (usually Kappa). Note their ornate 'love bites': tribal cicatrices around the neck, usually perpetrated by a near-toothless male known as Kev, Daz, Gaz, Baz, Tez or some other monosyllabic name.Health and Education
Chavs can often be seen smoking - an activity which causes them to spit and cough, but only in public places (see above). They imbibe alcohol, normally in the form of cheap lager / cider normally obtained illegally. This often gives them the impression that they are 'hard' and they will thus attempt to start fights with anyone/thing smaller than them. However, upon retaliation of their prey they tend to run away.
Chavs are, believe it or not, to be found in education. Again, they tend to subsist in packs and can be seen braying and howling in the classroom, challenging even the most reasonable of requests to shut the hell up and let other people learn things. They tend to leave school before the age of sixteen, however, in order to pursue parenthood or a life of crime.
Transportation
The chavette is rarely seen driving a car. Instead, she is to be found holding up various bus passengers as she attempts to manoeuvre her outsized three-wheeled buggy onto a local bus service. She is usually en route to a supermarket or other place where she can swear at or smack her children publicly (this is the only form of discipline, usually to an extreme, ever displayed by chavs or chavettes towards their children and so it is required by law that it takes place wherever others may be gathered).
The chav can be found spending seemingly endless resources of money adding bodykits and neon striplights to his car (sometimes known as a 'chaviot'): this is normally a pre-1990 Ford Escort with 1100cc engine and XR3i stickers, a near-suicidal Vauxhall Nova (with plastic split-screen effect, or the occasional BMW coated in Hammerite. The real mystery about this is how the vehicle can move under the weight of the stereo system installed (badly) within. A large sticker usually adorns the rear (tinted) windscreen of the vehicle, proclaiming the brand of stereo equipment supposedly fitted inside. Loud, bassy music of indeterminate genre / origin will more often than not be emanating through the very loose tinted side windows.
Language
The typical Chav speaks a language which has yet to be named. It claims to have its roots in English, although this is in some doubt. Most Chav words are mercifully brief, and sentences tend to be punctuated with 'innit' or some sort of expletive. Only chavs can truly understand the language - the rest of us can only guess at the witty repartie and intellectual gems of conversation that may pass between them.
[b]If you see a young male (aged 12-35) dressed like an elderly lady's shopping trolley, you have in all likelihood just witnessed a chav. In this situation, you are permitted by common consensus to find the nearest firearm and descend upon said chav with all force.[/b]
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chav&defid=954261
"Chav" — (pronounced ch-ah-v) — one who wears tracksuits, Fred Perry, Berghaus, and excessive amounts of faux Burberry [b](for your daily dose of laughter, simply Google “chav” and look at them. Maybe we should start putting them in zoos along with the starved tigers…).[/b]
http://community.sparknotes.com/2009/07/28/sparknotes-glossary-of-british-slang
You use the term yet have offered no explanation as to why you feel justified in doing so.
Luckily, I don't feel the need to Justify anything I say, to you Mike, sorry if that makes you feel less important, but you are just some stranger on the Internet.
I got a phone call from another stw forum user t'night just to tell me that i have to "read" this thread on stw with "Chavs broken my windows" in the thread title, i'm glad he did as this is one of the greatest non-arguments by forum bores in stw history, well done all you objectors - very highly entertaining reading indeed and just imagine the righteous outrage pouring from your frantic typing if he used a term such as Gypo or pikey....
Can i just add that i'm council housed, well it was council housing when i moved in 18yrs years ago but now it's housing association owned - does that change the terminology to HAAV?, doesn't quite have the same ring to it so i'll stick to chav if you don't mind, or i prefer ned, being from scotland and all that you can keep your chavs south of the border as our council neds up here would skin and eat them alive.
I got a phone call from another stw forum user t'night just to tell me that i have to "read" this thread on stw with "Chavs broken my windows" in the thread title, i'm glad he did
People ring up other people to tell them about threads on stw? Really?
Yep...especially when they're as funny or pedantic as this, last time it happened was a few years ago with regard to a "picolax" thread, before that it was the "badger" thread, now you have joined the greats, forever known as the "chav" thread , i guess it's almost as bad as folk trying to argue or get a point across on a web forum when for all intents and purposes they could be talking to a fat mama bear sitting naked in front of a multiple monitor set-up with sweat stains dribbling down her thighs onto the floor whilst getting off over a webcam feed bout intensive dairy farming.
You never know, there's prob someone right now, somewhere in the world doing just that.......be careful out there folks.
because you Nealglover choose to have your own 'understanding' of words, rather than the accepted norm,
"accepted norm" is the issue here. It's erroneous. There is no 'accepted' anything, it's a new word and still open to interpretation. The 'accepted' etymology of "Council House And Violent", for example, is nonsense, it's a bacronym.
You're taking the term to mean all youths of a certain working class upbringing and culture, which isn't the case. "Chav" implies an antisocial / criminal element, by definition. [i]Those who don't subscribe to antisocial behaviour aren't chavs.[/i]
Whoever broke the OP's window could be a middle class Chinese woman with a Prada handbag for all we know. But if she'd nothing better to do than hang around someone's back street throwing bricks at windows, the moniker "chav" isn't wholly inaccurate.
You're taking the term to mean all youths of a certain working class upbringing and culture, which isn't the case.
Really? Never ever?
"Chav" implies an antisocial / criminal element, by definition. Those who don't subscribe to antisocial behaviour aren't chavs.
And those who dress/speak in a similar fashion but aren't actually guilty of anti-social behaviour never get lumped in together with those who do? Try reading this definition again, no mention of anti-social behaviour:
"Chav" — (pronounced ch-ah-v) — one who wears tracksuits, Fred Perry, Berghaus, and excessive amounts of faux Burberry (for your daily dose of laughter, simply Google “chav” and look at them. Maybe we should start putting them in zoos along with the starved tigers…).
http://community.sparknotes.com/2009/07/28/sparknotes-glossary-of-british-slang
/p>
Not much mention of it in the other description I posted either, it's mostly just base snobbery.
Jesus wept, we need a big close war to put things back in perspective.
People becoming indignant over the use of certain words is laughable, then moralising on the issue is beyond boring, if people (everybody, any colour, race, age etc) just got on with their lives without fretting over the latest terminology and remembered that 'sticks and stones' then the world would be a far better place.
One wonders what the hand wringers would do however?!
Chav was being used when I was at school and it was always used to describe someone who behaved in a certain way....background had no bearing on things, hard to quantify but on meeting somebody you knew when they were a bit 'Chavvy' regardless of wealth.
My other half's boss is very wealthy, he is also crass, obnoxious, deceitful etc etc, you wouldn't choose to spend time with him....'chav' had always been a useful catch-all term for people like this....sometimes at school we used the term 'pikey' but this seems exclusive to the travelling community now, circa '93 in the south it simply meant someone who was a bit skanky, a bit of a dick....pikey, chav, who cares?....
I'm more amazed that no-one's suggested Linux to fix his windows problem yet.
More surprised that nobody has suggested that if he had bought a mac instead this would never have happened.....
if people (everybody, any colour, race, age etc) just got on with their lives without fretting over the latest terminology and remembered that 'sticks and stones' then the world would be a far better place.
I'm not fretting over terminology - I just think there is a lot of snobbery at play, here and in society in general, and it's not healthy/positive. Terms like 'chav' feed into it.
And saying that 'chavviness' is not related to wealth is a bit of a red herring, it's more just that wealth/class don't necessarily directly correlate.
hard to quantify but on meeting somebody you knew when they were a bit 'Chavvy' regardless of wealth.
You mean you consider their clothing to be gaudy and unfashionable, and they speak with a strong regional accent, with ostentatious displays of jewellery or cars that you consider tasteless perhaps? i.e. they are rich but still low-class in your eyes?
sometimes at school we used the term 'pikey' but this seems exclusive to the travelling community now, circa '93 in the south it simply meant someone who was a bit skanky, a bit of a dick....pikey, chav, who cares?....
RIghty-ho, so a derogatory term for scummy, tasteless people you don't like is interchangeable with a derogatory term for gypsies/travellers - and you don't see any problem?
I'm not exactly that holier-than-thou about it - I've used these words from time to time in the past. I just think it's something that should probably be generally avoided, or at the very least thought about a bit. Seems that's a struggle for some on here though.
And mikewsmith - do you ever STFU about Apple products? You honestly seem obsessed.
And mikewsmith - do you ever STFU about Apple products? You honestly seem obsessed.
Lol there was actually a funny line in amongst all this Sh** that is getting spouted - I attempted to read a thread that ended up as a classic mud flinger and got bored so added a throw away line as a response to a joke 1 page back (probably the last meaningful comment)
I was mostly more annoyed that one of the Guardian links had a americaniZed Z in it.
For the record I will try and find a way to tag some lines as JOKE for those that are a little to into their own ranting to get that. 🙂 (JOKE)
It may have been a JOKE, but the funniest part is the way you have managed to vent your Apple-hating obsession on a completely unrelated thread (even if it was a JOKE). 🙂
Really? Never ever?
Sorry. "Which isn't [i]necessarily [/i]the case."
And those who dress/speak in a similar fashion but aren't actually guilty of anti-social behaviour never get lumped in together with those who do?
By the ignorant, sure.
TBH, the whole "youth of today" thing is a way broader issue than simple terminology. Whether we refer to them them chavs, young adults, hoodies, or the future of mankind, we've still spent the last decade or two telling them all directly and indirectly that they're worthless shithouses.
Try reading this definition again
There's plenty of definitions. Far as I'm concerned, the derogatory term applies when actions deserve it. Cf. not all travellers are pikeys, but if I were to disturb one in the act of removing the radio from my car then I'd feel justified in applying the moniker. (IIRC, the Romany definition means 'not one of us' anyway, or something similar).
Ultimately, if you're a criminal scumbag, the words used to describe you are a lesser issue than the fact you're a criminal scumbag.
Words are funny things, aren't they? Just a jumble of letters. Yet we have filters on the forum in place to stop them landing in certain orders, lest people take offence.
You crazy guys
grum - Member
It may have been a JOKE, but the funniest part is the way you have managed to vent your Apple-hating obsession on a completely unrelated thread (even if it was a JOKE).
PMSL this thread left any topic on page 1, it could have been about anything 🙂
Expecting a Thatcher reference shortly and one possibly something around turning bikes over.
Get some sleep.
bandying around the word "chav" as a derogatory insult from your oh so high horse is just rubbish, makes you look a bit thick and just one step removed from the thing you think you are deriding. stinks of insecurity to me. It's just "them" from the other side of town. Get a life and talk to other human beings!
Yep...especially when they're as funny or pedantic as this, last time it happened was a few years ago with regard to a "picolax" thread, before that it was the "badger" thread, now you have joined the greats, forever known as the "chav" thread , i guess it's almost as bad as folk trying to argue or get a point across on a web forum when for all intents and purposes they could be talking to a fat mama bear sitting naked in front of a multiple monitor set-up with sweat stains dribbling down her thighs onto the floor whilst getting off over a webcam feed bout intensive dairy farming.
I laughed so hard after reading that I thought I was going into seizures. Thanks. 😆
Is it ok to refer to these people as 'undesirables'....?
....no socio-economic group specified, just the obvious suggestion that the people who broke the OP's windows are best avoided.
I could retch at how PC that just sounded.
deviant just call them "These people" it'll make you feel better. you can gather them into a group of badness, nastiness or poorness labelled "these people" and put all sorts of wayward deviancy upon their heads. When someone trips up a granny or punches a dog, you can then blame "these people" and point at the little gathering of "these people" over there that you have no association with, then "these people" will be all over the gutter press and daily mail, next thing "these people" will be all derided in STW forum. Then they'll need a new name. It's easier to group and label people. That's how it goes..
