Cougar - ModeratorWTF is "antifa"? I've never heard of it outside of this thread.
You know how everyone that turns up at a demonstration is a looter, unemployed or a student? And everyone that voted Brexit is an ill educated racist? And everyone that supports Jeremy Corbyn is in Momentum? And everyone who's unemployed is a shirker? [i]That's[/i] Antifa. (you'll also see on the alt-right they're universally communists, too. Who knew there were so many communists in the USA?)
It's actually a real thing but it's mostly being used as a convenient term to lump normal everyday people who are principled enough and brave enough to stand up to scumbags in with the minority of extremists. There's a reason it went from being a word you'd never heard to front page news in no time.
(I stood alongside AFA back in the day; I wasn't in AFA, or part of any group. But today, people would say I'm Antifa. Especially people from the National Front and the BNP)
Now my ninfan senses are tingling and I fully expect to hear "Just like you lump everyone on the other side in with nazis". So before that happens, no. The other side here are genuinely mostly literal Nazis and Klansmen, white supremacists, and racists, to coin a phrase it's an Axis of evil. Opposing that isn't even a side at all, not being a nazi isn't a side- that's like saying not being a cyclist puts you on a side.
Been following this thread....
yunki - Member
Google 'paradox of tolerance' and also consider that antifascist is not a movement, or a collective or a political stance.
Antifascist should be your default state.
You're supposed to be antifascist...
This is exactly what I was struggling to verbalise - thanks Yunki
The other thing I have been struggling to concisely verbalise is around the "equivalence of opinions" - we seem so desperate to be fair and even-handed that we are giving undue credence to the options of stupid/uninformed people, or people who's opinions come from hate, bigotry or self-interest.
The Donald (along with some on here) are, either consciously or unconsciously empowering/legitimizing those with views which should be roundly dismissed/rejected (and were until recently) - and it's taking us backwards.
It's ok to be a climate change denier, and now it's ok to be a Nazi? Because, you know, I'm entitled to my opinion, and freedom of speech and stuff? Jesus wept.
The opposite of a Nazi is not a leftie or an alt-leftie (whateverTF that is), it's just a normal, decent human being. Just like being anti-trump doesn't mean you're a snowflake libtard - it just means you can see through somebody who is objectively (not subjectively) a terrible person, lies through their teeth and is morally bankrupt.
Also it's interesting to ask whether people would be defending ISIS's right to hold a protest/rally (on the basis of free speech)? As far as I see it, their stated aims are not so different from those of the Nazis - albeit on religious grounds rather than some idea of genetic superiority.
Of course we wouldn't - they're terrorists! So why aren't the neo-nazi's and the KKK and the like classified as terrorist organisations? Genuine question? They seem to fit the criteria.
ninfan - MemberBut 1930's Germany does?
I mean, if one side is allowed to cherry pick from history...
This has nothing to do with the points raised to you earlier.
Why not pick up where you left off?
Oh, that's right. It's because you chat shite then ignore it when it's pointed out.
You are an obvious, and odious troll.
What pleasure do you gain from constantly proving to yourself that you're not very clever?
What pleasure do you gain from being unpleasant?
Are you lonely?
You are an obvious, and odious troll.
What pleasure do you gain
You're responding to him, that's enough TBH
CFH at an anti-nazi rally earlier
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Seems like an odd conincidence that the former slaves acestors are all so poor and keep getting shot. Its only what 50-60 years since segregation ended.
The conduct of the war on drugs since approximately 1980, the collapse of blue collar jobs Northern US cities, and the profit driven prison system [[i]EDIT: The wording of the 1865 13th Amendment does have some bearing here[/i]] has little to do with segregation in some southern states up until the early 1960's. The most substantial link you could make is that the assassinations and imprisonment/silencing in the late 1960's and '70's of powerful leaders for the African-American population. By the time the war on drugs started in the 1980's the poor had practically no voice...
...I would only ever want to be on trial in the US if I had the means to afford a decent lawyer.
Anyhow, that has little to do with the rise of the alt-right and the emboldenment of the far-right. They will of course make links and cite the 'erosion of white' culture blah, blah, blah. The recent Gamergate nonsense and sexism probably has more to do with the election of Trump and subsequent new-confidence in the older far-right groups than black poverty in the US.
What's Gamergate and WTF has it got to do with Trump; [url= https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/01/gamergate-alt-right-hate-trump ]Guardian; Gamergate & the Alt-Right[/url]
A tour of some of Trump's 'fine people'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/17/charlottesville-alt-right-neo-nazis-white-nationalists
Just to add to Kimbers link - this is the kind of person that went to Charlottesville.
[url= https://warisboring.com/a-convicted-domestic-terrorist-was-at-the-charlottesville-nazi-march/ ]Convicted far-right member at Charlottesville[/url]
Agents also found notes written by Tubbs that showed that he and John Tubbs planned to set up a new group called the Knights of the New Order and a lists of targets that included newspapers, television stations and businesses owned by Jews and blacks. They also found a group pledge authored by Tubbs. “I dedicate my heart to oppose the enemies of my race, my nation and the New Order,” the pledge read. “I dedicate my life from this moment forward to fostering the welfare of the white Aryan race.”
Many had embraced Gamergate because they felt it wholly matched their ideals, and yet – quite consistently – no one in the movement was willing to be associated with the abuse being carried out in its name. Prominent supporters on Twitter, in subreddits and on forums like 8Chan, [b]developed a range of pernicious rhetorical devices and defences to distance themselves from threats to women and minorities in the industry: the targets were lying or exaggerating, they were too precious; a language of dismissal and belittlement was formed against them. Safe spaces, snowflakes, unicorns, cry bullies. Even when abuse was proven, the usual response was that people on their side were being abused too.[/b] These techniques, forged in Gamergate, have become the standard toolset of far-right voices online.
excerpt from that gamergate article up there. remind you of anyone?
Let's be clear. The opposition to Nazis and their supporters, whose views identify them as differing from Nazis only in the addition of parentheses, are a loose collection of just about all other shades of opinion and political allegiance who otherwise would be spending their time arguing with each other.
Attempts to dilute the acts of the Charlotteville Nazis and their fellow-travellers by parsing the argument, describing the opposition as a homogenous group who are "just as bad", indicates that the person responsible is AT LEAST a Nazi sympathizer and if push came to shove, would be a direct supporter of said slime life.
As to the justification for punching Nazis, it worked in the 1940's. It always does with bullies of any sort.
Some results in the HuffPost/YouGov poll conducted 14-15th August:
48% of the Trump voters polled said that the white nationalists at Charlottesville were either [i]"mostly right"[/i] (11%) or [i]"went too far, but they have a point"[/i] (37%).
68% of the Trump voters polled said that [i]"there is a lot of discrimination against white people"[/i].
Only 3% of Trump voters polled think Trump personally supports white nationalism. Conversely only 3% of Clinton voters polled think he opposes it.
Shows some quite incredible divides between the Democrat and Republican voters. Seems pretty clear that Charlottesville is just a beginning 🙁
There's a bit to like in those numbers Graham. Look at the way the non or third party voters break.
Frankly, ANY society where it's ok, or even legal for civilians to parade around with assault rifles in public is pretty messed up:
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( America land of the [s]free[/s] [b]stupid[/b] )
May seem mad to us in the relatively gun-free UK max, but then despite the violent confrontations and guns (on [i]both[/i] sides), no one was shot.
Does feel like a matter of time though
@ Bigearedrider
I think that must be one of the 'good people' Trump was talking about.
@ Batfink
Of course we wouldn't - they're terrorists! So why aren't the neo-nazi's and the KKK and the like classified as terrorist organisations? Genuine question? They seem to fit the criteria.
This... If the Americans cherish their freedom of speech so much surely they would't object to isis opening up a North American office?
@ aracer
Axis of evil indeed.
I noticed the ITV, BBC news channels were using the footage from the Vice documentary last night, thanks to whoever posted it up here. What an example of journalism, following the old fashioned practice of following a story, rather then copying and pasting a Reuters report and adding a few opinions. It reminded me of some of the reports Charles Wheeler delivered for the BBC back in the 60's when he was covering the civil rights protests.
Look at the way the non or third party voters break.
that whatever the question a third of them are not sure of the answer?
Sarcasm aside I genuinely dont get your point.
Its strange how white men fell their identity is under threat when they are no longer allowed to oppress non whites and non males.
They literally fear equality.
Junkyard - lazarusThey literally fear equality.
nail on the head.
[quote=yunki]
[b]Antifascist is not a movement[/b]
[b]Antifascist should be your default state[/b]
[b]You're supposed to be Antifascist...[/b]
I've paraphrased, but this needs to be cut and pasted onto every page of a discussion regarding Nazi's vs Anti Fascists.
Don't confuse antifascism with antifa.
Thanks for the clarification
Which type are you then?
Don't confuse antifascism with antifa.
yep one is what normal people call opposing fascism
one is what insecure, paranoid alt-right types call people opposing fascism
its an important distinction!
Don't confuse antifascism with antifa.
Elaborate please.
Frankly, ANY society where it's ok, or even legal for civilians to parade around with assault rifles in public is pretty messed up:
OMG! Guns! wild, violent gun toting nutters, presumably carrying thousands of bullets in their quick-change assault rifle magazines!
How many people got shot? Hundreds presumably?
Uh oh.. the lone wolf is back again
How many people got murdered [s]shot[/s]?
lone wolf
You knows it
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/inspiring-rides-true-greatness-knows-no.html
How many people got murdered shot?
You're saying we should ban cars?
You're saying we should ban cars?
only those driven by terrorised neo-nazis forced to run people over top avoid being punched in the face
ninfan - Member
Frankly, ANY society where it's ok, or even legal for civilians to parade around with assault rifles in public is pretty messed up:
OMG! Guns! wild, violent gun toting nutters, presumably carrying thousands of bullets in their quick-change assault rifle magazines!How many people got shot? Hundreds presumably?
you do understand you lost this thread right?
Fox News Republished a Celebratory Video of “Cars Plowing Through Protesters” in January
Why not? Cars driving at protesters is [i]literally[/i] a laughing matter
The conduct of the war on drugs since approximately 1980, the collapse of blue collar jobs Northern US cities, and the profit driven prison system
Fynny cause the black populations of southern states were poor and discriminated against before then!
[quote=ninfan ]Why not? Cars driving at protesters is literally a laughing matter
In the same way shooting people with an automatic rifle is:
ninfan - MemberWhy not? Cars driving at protesters is literally a laughing matter
humped about 17-0 from my count.
You're saying we should ban cars?
No but I think a lengthy ban from driving would be appropriate for the person who said this
you were near me and suggesting punching me in the face was appropriate then I'd run you over with my car to get away from you
Why not? Cars driving at protesters is literally a laughing matter
Credible sources report that car was escaping from a bunch of stick wielding thugs and it was nervous laughter at the narrow escape.
thankfully there were enough armed folk there to maintain peace
Without them who knows what may have happened there may have been a riot or death or some unpleasantness from both sides
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carrying a gun signals one thing, that you are prepared to kill someone. and in that case, imo, you forfeit your right to be treated as a human (ie with compassion, morality and respect)
There's only one group condoning violence round here - the people who think it's ok to punch people you disagree with in the face.
I don't care if you're white, black, or even blue, carrying a gun signals one thing, that you are prepared to kill someone.
Bullshit.
ninfan - Member
There's only one group condoning violence round here - the people who think it's ok to punch people you disagree with in the face.
Do you accept that Nazism is inherently about mass murder/genocide or not? a simple yes or no will do.
I'm pretty sure you got 2 men send off in the second half, this game is beyond redemption...
Is it just a fashion thing then, and some people carry guns but wouldn't ever consider using them?
You're saying we should ban cars?
If that's the best you can do, you've clearly lost.
Desperate troll *sadface*
Is it just a fashion thing then, and some people carry guns but wouldn't ever consider using them?
Like brakes on fixies.
I think the sensible point is to accept they would not all preemptively use the gun but it seems utterly pointless to own a gun you are 100% not ever going to use under any circumstances. Therefore it does signal you are prepared to use it - where death is a pretty likely outcome- if "you have to".
Given this, crude though the statement is, it is basically accurate
The thing is if you're carrying a gun it's easy enough to shoot someone, if you're not carrying a gun it becomes much harder to shoot people. Making it harder to shoot people seems like a good thing.
ninfan - MemberThere's only one group condoning violence round here
Liar.
Nazis condone violence.
You condone violence.
You can get attention by being nice, not just by being horrid. 💡
Lunch in the canteen, or table for one in Subway? 😉
akira - MemberThe thing is if you're carrying a gun it's easy enough to shoot someone, if you're not carrying a gun it becomes much harder to shoot people.
I'm not sure, maybe the fact that you are 45 times more likely to die from a gun in the US compared to the UK is just a statistical anomaly.
