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Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don’t understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?
I think you're underestimating the average Brexiteer. They understood fully what the implications were:
*£350m a week for the NHS
*Fewer immigrants. Especially Asian/African ones.
*Not having an unelected elite (like the House of Lords) making rules for us
*Magical trade opportunities with poorer, further away countries than those in the EU
*Blue passport
*"Taking back control"
*"Making Britain Great again"
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Kelvin - there are surely millions of us surveying the present political landscape in the same total despair. Everyone who I know is.
We’ve got the two main parties both taken over by their lunatic fringe and the terrifying thing is that I just can’t see it changing any time soon. In fact, if anything it looks like - with the people involved - it can only get worse.
UK politics on both sides is now a slave to equally ridiculous, discredited ideologies, espoused by zealots, both wanting to lead us down very different, but mindless economic cull-de-sacs, while ignoring all reality
while the rest of us look on totally bemused as to how on Earth we ended up here
To me it's not that complicated.
You need a Government to reverse a lot of the crap we have in place from the Tories. That means voting for the current Labour party.
Yes, some people will never get over the 'horror' of voting for a party that will have Diane Abbott and John McDonnell in the cabinet. But, the evidence that they're dangerous or incompetent is based on character assassination.
We just desperately need a Labour governemnt to engage in redistribution of some kind.
Calling the Labour party a shambles is an own goal. If you like the idea of the strong supporting the weak then you've got to be on the right side of the fence.
Corbyn is not a typical politician (in the critical sense of this thread) yet doesn't seem to garner the support from the same people who call politicians the same.
I think the conversation I had with my mum before the last election summed up the hopeless of the situation nicely
Me...who are you planning to vote for
Mum.. Im not sure, can't decide between tory or Labour, I don't really like either
Me.. Errr.. They aren't the only two options
Mum..waste of a vote they will never win
My head was in my hands..
Mum..waste of a vote they will never win
My head was in my hands..
I wouldn't be too harsh - our stupid electoral system is more to blame.
They get very upset if you point it out to them though.
Yeah there's a lot of denial and delusional thinking all round. Only helps those who are drawing the battle lines take advantage.
I think the two people who perfectly illustrate the relative, but equally serious, derth of ability in both main parties are Dianne Abbot and Boris Johnson
Neither of them could be trusted to run a ****ing bath!!
Yet there they both are
Semantics I suppose but I shall rise to the "century" jibe.
Working class = people earning less than the average UK wage for semi/unskilled work.
Middle class = people earning above the average UK wage for skilled/professional work.
Is that "definitive" enough...
Although one size don't fit all...
Pretty shit dig by the way.....
El-bent ..
You have a real aptitude for quoting shite that exists in your own mind ..
Perhaps it escaped your attention when I said that I have opinions which I will keep to myself .
Come to think of it ..you are brilliant at distorting the truth ..ever thought of becoming an MP yourself ..you would fit right in ..
Cheers.
I think the two people who perfectly illustrate the relative, but equally serious, derth of ability in both main parties are Dianne Abbot and Boris Johnson
It doesn't come down to ability for me. It comes down to intention. Who do you think Boris is going to look after?
Working class* ,northern scum reporting in.
Re the O.P. - lot's of folk I talk to are wanting to up sticks and move to Europe , me included.
Re binners' first post - sums me up too.
Mrs May is doing all she can to hustle through brexit .
I think both parties are heading for yet another leadership election. Boris- aaaagggghh.
Then we have another general election, then a second referendum ,brexit & Scotland perhaps and on and on and on. 🙁
*probably classed as middle now.
Just to add to this thread and I think it's relevant . If you look at the latest honour rewards it pretty much sums up most things. Elite patting their elite buddy's on their backs while the hard working foundation of all the people just get spat on.
It comes down to intention.
Exactly. Labour party would try and bring a fairer society, Tories are continuing to deliver a society that works for the rich. Those are their intentions. Who is doing it and how doesn't really matter, people just need to see it.
There are however parts to a fair society that a lot of working class people won't like (the dirty foreigners, the scroungers on benefits) which is why they are played and over exaggerated in the way they are by Tories and media.
Another one in the SE. Having grown up in the country, moved to London then experienced the latter again, no it s not changed. Same old isolated bollocks.
For me the only things that’s changed is the dawning realisation that politics is basically just one person working hard and exploiting pother people directly or indirectly for thier own personal gain. In the Government, its us being manipulated in the main for that by the powerful and the wealthy. I haven’t seen a single person that I’d vote for that I truly believe would change things for the masses and not exploit the situation for personal gain. And I probably never will.
Does make me laugh when people see Corbyn as waaaaay left though. Shows the impact of what the media get up to I suppose.
Exactly. Jeremy Corbyn is actually a moderate socialist. He only looks more left-wing because politics in the UK and internationally have been moving right - largely due to the influence of a few uber-wealthy people who control the media, who need less freedom and more conflict to make even more obscene profits.
Theresa May is nearer right-wing facism than Jeremy Corbyn is near Marxism. In fact Jeremy Corbyn is far closer politically to Harold MacMillan than his apparent heir, currently in power.
The right-wing of yesteryear, the aforementioned MacMillan and on the American side, Eisenhower, would likely be both appalled and ashamed about where we have gone so far adrift of working for the common good.
The pushing of Corbyn as an extreme left almost Marxist is just another example of distortion and fear from an elite and media who are scared of someone with a set of reasonable and workable views.
The pushing of Corbyn as an extreme left almost Marxist
It's not Grandpa Corbyn you've got to worry about, it Uncle McDonnell who's the real Marxist*
*actually talks a fair amount of sense, despite being a bit of a **** in front of the camera.
How many who are using Marxism on this thread have read Capital or have anything other than a passing knowledge of his work, I wonder? (for that matter Adam Smith, likewise?)
I only read both of these properly this year, and frankly it's astonishing that these names get thrown about the way they do. Especially when it comes to the Labour front bench
We just desperately need a Labour governemnt to engage in redistribution of some kind.
What you end up with is the wealthy avoiding this and those who have a little more than average paying.
What depresses me more is that it is always a argument of lab Vs con. One or the other, both broken but that's your choice.
How many who are using Marxism on this thread have read Capital or have anything other than a passing knowledge of his work, I wonder? (for that matter Adam Smith, likewise?)
I have. A little bit of Keynes too.
I only read both of these properly this year, and frankly it’s astonishing that these names get thrown about the way they do. Especially when it comes to the Labour front bench
I agree. Calling current Labour Marxists is very far from the truth.
I've read Marx back in my student days
I'm just listening to Five Live at the moment, with the Grenfall memorial on. An incident that perfectly summarises where we are as a country. The richest borough in the UK treats its social housing residents (wrong colour, wrong accent) like something they have to tolerate, at best, and who stand in the way of their grand money-making development plans. So their subsequent contempt, cost-cutting, incompetence and disdain for legitimate safety concerns leads directly to a huge and horrific loss of life.
And what have we seen since from both that Tory council and central government since? Contrition? Compassion? a reappraisal of attitudes to inequality?
Of course we *ing haven't! They barely even bother pretending they care.
We've seen crocodile tears, the usual back-covering, shrugging indifference and buck-passing. Most of the families are still living in hotel rooms 12 months later. In one of the most moneyed environments in the world. its an absolute *ing disgrace! But it perfectly illustrates the attitude of the 'Elite' and powerful and their total disdain for those they deem to rule over
How many who are using Marxism on this thread have read Capital
I have and it was hard work. People shoudl be forced to read it before they can use the word Marxist.
As you say, nothing Marxist about Labour and nothing waaaay left either
Wrightyson +1
Because the Socialists let all the foreigners in during Tonys glory years and then they pinched all the good jobs so now the nasty Tories will help us get rid of em then we’ll all go back to voting labour.
Speaking from my own experience. I think some people in this country underestimate how hardline significant groups of the population are. Their real views, are far less liberal, further right and draconian than even the current Tories. Poles apart from the views shouted from the roof tops on the internet!
Your not wrong, I deliberately keep some as Facebook friends just to see what madness is out there and it’s eye opening the sort of thing they keep sharing , just getting themselves wound up over flags and bacon sandwiches.
We need barricades, we need guillotines, we need firing squards, we need bullets lots of bullets, we need to do something.......
I need to vent my anger on these self serving **
Why can people not see these for what they are? It's in plain site.
I **ing despair.
I agree.
But 39 years of right wing, free market ideology has produced the desired effect.
Voting for the greater good is now seen as anachronistic.
We have a disenfranchised underclass, deliberately manufactured, who used their referendum vote.
We have a middle class who have no idea that they owe their cozy, privileged existance to the Labour Party and the Trades Unions they now despise.
And we have people who believe that nationalising water, power and transport is ''waaaay left".
We have a generation of selfish people who believe themselves to be the centre of the universe and have no idea how to behave in a civilised society. Unwilling to contribute or accept responsibility, happy to take.
And most sickening of all, happy to see the disabled and those on minimum wage punished again and again whilst they post on here about which £3000 bicycle to buy, whilst whining about jury duty, the BBC licence fee or how hard it is to survive on £100,000 a year.
****s.
<h1 class="story-body__h1">New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP</h1>
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44496427
his wikipedia page is an littany of bigotry & ignorance, he has a huge majority
I'd love to argue with you Rusty. But I can't.
please for the love of dingbats could someone fix the formatting on this forum!
He was one of the pioneers in the selling off of council housing stock and aggressively reducing council spending, which earned him the sobriquet "Chopper" Chope.
.....where he was responsible for steering through the "Community Charge" (popularly known as the Poll tax) legislation.
On 10 February 2009, he called for the minimum wage to be abolished.
Later that year, in the expenses scandal, it emerged that Chope claimed £136,992 in parliamentary expenses in 2007/08. This included claiming £881 to repair a sofa.
On 12 March 2010, he was responsible for the blocking of a bill to protect poor countries from "vulture funds", despite his party's support for the bill.
In October 2010, Chope helped host a meeting of climate-science sceptics at Westminster.
On 11 October 2011, Chope raised an eleventh-hour objection to the Hillsboroughdebate taking place because he believed a debate about MPs' pensions was more important. Cries of "shame" echoed around the chamber and Labour MP Jamie Reed said that the perpetrator should be "named and shamed" for raising the objection.
Chope helped to lead backbench support for the motion calling for a European Referendum. He has also been heavily involved in the use of private member's bills to achieve this aim.
Chope came under fire in January 2013 for referring to some staff in the House of Commons as "servants". Parallels were drawn between this opinion and his views on the minimum wage.
Chope voted against the legislation for same-sex marriage in 2013.
In June 2013 Chope was one of four MPs who camped outside Parliament in a move to facilitate parliamentary debate on what they called an "Alternative Queen’s Speech" – an attempt to show what a future Conservative government might deliver. 42 policies were listed including reintroduction of the death penalty and conscription, privatizing the BBC, banning the burka in public places and preparation to leave the European Union.
In October 2015, Chope joined fellow Conservative members Philip Davies and David Nuttall in extended speeches, known as a filibuster, against a private member's bill that would have placed restrictions on hospital parking charges for carers. Their actions caused the bill to run out of time.
Chope married Christine Mary Hutchinson in April 1987 in Wimborne Minster, after meeting at a music festival when Chope stuck a camera up his wife-to-be's skirt.
Should fit in well on here.
First against the wall, with those who voted for him a close second.
please for the love of dingbats could someone fix the formatting on this forum!
Not going to happen. We have to live with it.
Tbh, I've have enough of being reasonable and trying to change things democratically.
Time for some direct action.
I'd prefer it to be non violent, but if the ends justify the means, meh......
I bet the bus bullshit believing brigade really like the cut of Sir Chope's jib 🙂
That has to be a parody account of an MP's career surely?
Am sad. And more than a bit angry.
Christchurch in Dorset.
People on here will have voted for him.
Know your enemy.
What a total nobber.
Christchurch in Dorset.
Only a few miles down the road from me, although the history of my MP Swayne is not much better. No coincidence that it is also Brexitland. I would move if it wasn't so nice to ride here...
I am over in Germany and I can see the difference between the systems - they are more serious in politics here, there is more choice in parties, but they are facing similar problems to the UK even here. Of course in Germany, there seems to be a time lag - the problems the UK had in 2016 are just really beginning to cook off here.
Part of the problems is that globalisation rewards the young and mobile and the wealthy. If companies need more workers, then with free movement, they get them. This creates competition for those at the bottom and in the lower tiers.
In the Linke Party and the SPD Party here, most activists very commendably follow anti´-racist, pro multi-cultural policies such as open borders. What they do not seem to admit is that this means that ther will be more competition and lower wages etc.
So what do you do if you percieve that your jobs have been taken by foreigners? (it is different here because of a labour shortage, but we have problems with youth crime committed by the new refugees causing/inflaming xenophobia, but that is a different topic)
The socialist parties need to focus on their old core support - the working class - and look to concentrate on policies such as raising minimum wages to make vegetable picking etc more attractive to the working class. I am afraid that Labour tend to get side tracked by important but not so relevant to the British working class person who is in a shitty job or unemployed topics such as inclusion that do not interest their old core support so much. I am also afraid that when some labour politician comes on and gives the swivel-eyed crazy all British patriotic things are wrong, we are all colonial bastards, our first priority is the LGBT Islamic trans group, then tend to alienate the 'average' british working class voter - or at least appear to be a bit out of touch.....
Just my 2penneth....
Coming from NI I know fine well what it's like to be ruled by a bunch of lunitics. The difference between growing up in the 80s vs now? The internet.
Specifically, social media. The ignorant masses is an invalid arguement, people have lots of information flying at them everyday and sadly most people only follow or engage with people that share their views. If you're a work class lad and are friends with your achool mates, all it takes is a few of them to be ukipy and thats what fills up your feed every day.
That and people love a good "hate the foreigner" session when the going gets tough. Especially you english (sorry).
Also, totally agree with the inbred politics thing. I was loosely involved with a party in my 20s and it was simple career progression - uni>work for politician>politician. No actually working a proper job, getting real life experience. They decide around 17 or 18 they want to be a politician and thats it.
Didn't mean for that last post to sound a bit anti english. The same would probably apply to us lot in NI except we are too busy hating each other
The socialist parties need to focus on their old core support – the working class – and look to concentrate on policies such as raising minimum wages to make vegetable picking etc more attractive to the working class.
Does that mean you want the working class to remain working class forever?
What if the working class people want to progress up the class ladder, will that mean less support for socialist parties?
All hail the killfile.
I have raised the chewkw from the afterlife.....
I am a shamen!
Actually chewkw you raise an interesting point and back in the late 70s early 80s when I had a proper hands on Engineering job most of the craftsmen I worked with (proper working class) had no desire to "progress"
A lot of people have no desire to progress (whatever that means to each person) up a ladder (whatever that means to each person) but a fair government whose intent is to provide equality is not going to be a problem for anyone that does want to progress. In fact they would probably be more likely to be able to progress without the barriers that exist in our current unequal society.
The socialist parties need to focus on their old core support – the working class – and look to concentrate on policies such as raising minimum wages to make vegetable picking etc more attractive to the working class.
Does that mean you want the working class to remain working class forever?
What if the working class people want to progress up the class ladder, will that mean less support for socialist parties?
I do think social mobility is very important - ideally we should all be able be whatever we want to be. At present, IF you really want to suceed then you can in most areas (sadly there are still some barriers I will admit). But in general, anyone can be a doctor, lawyer, police officer etc. We just have to crack those last few areas where there are barriers. Free education is important in this.
But my point was that we cannot all be middle managers, teachers or city professionals. Somebody still has to clean offices, pick vegetables, work on the pork pie production line. In general, relying a constant supply of foreigners to do the jobs that we do not want to do cheaply is not a long term solution - they are a form of artificial competition to keep the wages low in those industries. I would prefer to see jobs that are traditionally 'working class' jobs paid better (or even somehow taxed in a different way) to encourage people to do them. Open borders would not allow this - an Australian immigration scheme would be better where you can try to match the needs of certain industries and for short term needs a limited term work visa system would also help.
I do recognize that these would affect the cost of production and exports of our goods though. But we need the government to focus on bringing training and education to the highest level to mean that we can compete because we have the best workers. The workers also have to develop a commensurate work ethic of performing to the highest standard - something that is easier when you feel rewarded for your work. (Admittedly when cleaning toilets, it is harder to feel pride in your work than other more glamourous trades, but if your wage is higher, it does help).
Ironically, the Tories seem to prefer limiting immigration, although they should be all for extra cheap labour brought about by more workers competing for the same jobs. An Labour seems to be more interested in a lax immigration policy instead of removing this competition by lowering the numbers of those competing for work.
I presume Oldmanmtb is forgetting about the 1970’s, the James Callaghan or Harold Wilson governments? The Winter of Discontent? The 3 day week and the oil crisis introduced by the Tory’s to attempt to limit electricity usage?
Fed up hearing this. As a 70 going on 23 year old I had a bloody good time in the 70's. Sure the bins didn't get emptied and it was a bit dark sometimes and I had to go to work at odd times but on the whole it was good. Very good. We had all the good bands and music and you could wear what you liked before 'fashion' was invented. I lived in a VW Caravanette for a time and dossed about. You could change jobs anytime you liked and money was actually worth something.
Stop rubbishing the seventies and anyway if you check the facts you will find it was Edward Heath Conservative who gave us the three day week.
Even the nostalgia was better in the seventies
Equality was better in the 70's and people were relatively happier so something must have been right.
All went downhill from the 80"s, I wonder why....
Equality was better in the 70’s
Er, where? Afghanistan maybe but here? Really?
I have raised the chewkw from the afterlife…..
I am a shamen!
... LOL!