[Closed] British and Irish Lions

as Gatland and Edwards leave him out of the team more often than not! He's very very inconsistent.

Not true, in fact its very wide of the mark. Henson has only been left out of the Wales team by Gatland when he's been woefully short of match time. In fact Gatland, the dour New Zealander, regularly jizzes himself into a frenzy during press conferences whenever the prospect of a fit Henson is discussed. He has also delayed the naming of the finished squads just so he can give Henson more time to prove fitness. Hensons bad games for Wales follow a pattern, a few early in career when he was only 19 and thrust into the 10 shirt with hardly any pro-rugby under his belt, a game when he was on early to replace Jones against Ireland away a few seasons ago having not played a full game for about 4 months and then there's the games where he plays 15 at which he isnt very good. But like Johnny Wilkinson he has had a career blighted by injury. The thing that people dont get about Henson is what he does is subtle, his defence is very good and all about positioning and resetting the line, his passing games makes others look very good (see how much better Shanklin looks outside henson rather than Roberts), he's an exceptional rucker, he can take the ball forward in heavy traffic and he has a huge boot on him. Despite all this because he doesnt side step defenders and score tries people think he's rubbish.

For the record I think Wilkinson is a fine player WHEN FIT. MY point maybe should have been that there are a load of posts on here wishing that so and so was available, was fit, was still playing etc. Unfortunately, Wilkinson isn't fit, neither is Henson, JPR Williams retired a lomg time ago, and Willie John isn't going to appear on the pitch in SA, so there's no point wishing for these things. They aren't going, fantastic players or not.

Errrr, cos despite his faults (injury after injury after injury, very occasional underwhelming performance when he's fit) you can't argue with [b]statistics[/b]

HIGHEST POINTS SCORER IN INTERNATIONAL RUGBY EVER!

And who is 9points below below Wilkinson? Neil Jenkins. Does that mean that Jenks was the 2nd best player in the world? I know the answer.....

I am a bit sceptical of all this talk about "picking on form"...

Most of the squad have played a lot of big games this season and have quite a long way to go with league games/ Heineken cup etc. Is there a risk that the current form players will be completely burnt come Test time? It'll be a long ol' season for some of those guys!

Cardiff players for example had the big EDF games, have massive Heineken cup game(s) coming, not to mention really having to get every point in the league to play European rugby next season. I am a bit worried that there is only so much focus not to mention physical form you can maintain- professional or not they are still human.

On a side note, I have it on good authority from a friend who played a few games for Wales that Henson does indeed shave his legs before every match 🙂 I guess now the Welsh AND roadies can both jump to his defence now 😀

I watch a lot of the super 14, as I am sure from the measured postings above we all do. I think we are going to appreciate just how good Shanklin is in the debate about centre partnership. I always thought he was the Welsh Paul Scholes, goes about his business very eficently and lets others around him grab the publicity.I think the type of SA game will suit him and also Worsley at 6. I am worried that the team has been picked to play a certain way, and the lack of a "gamebreaker" (BoD, is getting on) may make the Lions struggle to produce a plan B. I cannot see us winning the series

On a purely Scottish note, watch Euan Murray cement his reputation as the new "Bear"

And who is 9points below below Wilkinson? Neil Jenkins. Does that mean that Jenks was the 2nd best player in the world? I know the answer.....

Not necessarily, but I tell you what... ANY country in the world would have loved to have Neil Jenkins' kicking consistency within their team. As an Englishman watching Wales/England games over the years, when Jenkins was playing we weren't scared by his brilliance with the ball in hand, his incisive running, brilliant tackling or anything like that. He put the ball over the goalposts, time and time and time again, from just about any bloody where on the pitch! He almost single handedly introduced the concept of the dedicated Goal Kicker within a team.

Points to mean prizes after all!

Not true, in fact its very wide of the mark. Henson has only been left out of the Wales team by Gatland when he's been woefully short of match time. In fact Gatland, the dour New Zealander, regularly jizzes himself into a frenzy during press conferences whenever the prospect of a fit Henson is discussed.

LOL

OK fair enough. I remember seeing Henson play for the first time, and thought that the guy was very talented. He is still very talented, but I don't think he's up there with the greats though. And not only that, he suffers as badly from injury as our man Wilkinson. He is undeniably Orange though!

I remember seeing Henson play for the first time, and thought that the guy was very talented. He is still very talented, but I don't think he's up there with the greats though. And not only that, he suffers as badly from injury as our man Wilkinson. He is undeniably Orange though!

He's orange, he shave's his legs and is apparently a complete tosser when drinking all very true. He's also very talented and very "rugby intelligent" (not to be mistaken for any other type of intelligence), he's also been at the heart of two Grand Slams for Wales. What he has never done is prove himself against the southern hemisphere teams which is a real shame. Looking at players like him and wilkinson I cant help thinking that the game has become too physical in recent years. Would Barrie John shine now? Game is poorer without these players.

As an Englishman watching Wales/England games over the years, when Jenkins was playing we weren't scared by his brilliance with the ball in hand, his incisive running, brilliant tackling or anything like that. He put the ball over the goalposts, time and time and time again, from just about any bloody where on the pitch!

We still lost. Always. (Or at least it felt like it.)

Looking at players like him and wilkinson I cant help thinking that the game has become too physical in recent years. Would Barrie John shine now? Game is poorer without these players.

Not sure about the physicality bit - I'm sure you remember Cardiff - Swansea knocking bits out of each other legally and otherwise in the 90s, just using one example. Players have become so much bigger though, thats the difference. Jamie Roberts at centre is taller and heavier than pretty much every player on the 74 Lions tour. Henson himself is the size of a backrower from a few years back.

Ha this will annoy some people, Wilkinson is an oaf, if anyone can be called a one trick pony it is him. People coo and eulogise about how hard he tackled, but what happened he destroys himself physically. It is not his job to knock second rowers on their arses, leave it to the flankers. He didn't need to get involved in that side of the game.

He was never a fantastic runner, he distributed well and as we all know had a great boot. He had the luxury of playing behind a juggernought pack as did the most average international scrum half Dawson and had so much time and space anyone would have looked good. Under pressure he was very fallible, his pass to Cipriani towards the end of England Wales in 06 is an example.

It is a shame that his career has been so blighted with injury but take off the World Cup winning rose tinted specs and face facts, two people won the that Cup for England Martin Johnson and more importantly Richard Hill.

On the Lions front Worsley is great defensively but offers nothing in attack, the most disappointing aspect of his tussle with Roberts in the 6 Nations was that Roberts didn't seem able to outthink him. Just kept running into him.

Would add more but got to go to an incident.

PIgface, Have you ever watched JW play a game of Rugby? Are you just spouting things that you may have overheard drunken people say in welsh or scots pubs? A LOT more than 2 people won the WC, you seem to forget the only player to have played every minute of that competition was Lawrence Dallaglio, Neil Back has always been immense. jason Robinson had a pretty big say in it as did will greenwood. So, for gods sake stick to cycling and leave the rugger to the grown ups.
Did you cause this "incident" by smoking too much crack?

[b]RUGGER??????[/b]

I don't watch RUGGER!!

backhander, please refer to the game in a non English public school, rosy cheeked, barbour wearing, prawn sandwich type way, otherwise I may be forced to..............

well I don't know.

Sulk?

Many folk agree with pigfaces assessment of Wilkinson. A great tackler, great kicker, all right at distributing the ball but slow, poor at running with the ball.

Playing behind a juggernaut pack he was great - trundle down the field and kick the points.

However he was easy to negate because of his limitations. When defending against him you sent runners at him and he retreated behind the pack preventing him ever getting the backs away so he had to kick the ball away.

Last lions tour he was a disaster. Usually appearing at inside centre with a forward at first receiver. The second half of the 3rd test cussitor and a different scrumhalf ( O Gara?) came on and the game was transformed - fast ball to the backs.

Wilko - a great player for 10 man rugby. His time has passed the game has moved on.

A good analysis there, TJ.

I don't disagree with all you say there TJ.
His time has almost certainly passed but to pigeonhole him as a kicker as pigface did is grossly unfair. He was poor on the last Lions tour but did not deserve to even be there, let alone take somebodies place in the centre. As for running, he's still scored more tries in less tests than Stephen Jones. It annoys me when people of differing nations fault him for few real reasons when its more based upon the amount of points he's stuck on them in the past. BTW, I certainly don't remember O'Gara playing at scrumhalf, did I miss that?
IdleJon, sorry for that, I'm the absolute polar opposite of a public schoolboy.

Sorry - should have read standoff.

Wilkinson is slated by the non english not so much for the points - remember Patterson has a better % record but because of the way he was venerated by the English fans despite being a limited player. He was never even the best standoff in the 6N during his career let alone the world.

lol, backhander. Sulk over.

One of my lasting memories of JW is from Swansea v Newcastle, St Helens, 99/00 I think. JW playing at 12 against Scott Gibbs. At one point Gibbs hunted him down, forced him to run directly away, into his in-goal area before being clobbered. You had to be there.

Same with Henson, he behaved like a child for quite a few years and has never proved himself at the highest level, neither has O Driscoll, Jones, even the celebrated (or worshipped) Shane Williams. Perhaps O Gara was better during some 6N, but certainly nobody else and definately not Jones.

I think TJ has hit the mark with his Wilko assessment.

England were a great team in 2003 but it was built on 2 of the all time greats, Jonno and Richard Hill (guess I am agreeing with Pig Face?). They also had a whole host of great players. Bankhander is right with most.

Neil Back has always been immense.

Not sure why Neil Back figures in so many people minds as a 'great'. He was ok, even good as a link player. Weak tackler, not as good at turing the ball over as his peers and not a lineout option.

As for running, he's still scored more tries in less tests than Stephen Jones.

Thats like saying, he must be a good runner he's scored more tries than a tortoise!! I think we should all be able to agree that Wilkinson was good but he's no Dan Carter or Steven Larkham.

Same with Henson, he behaved like a child for quite a few years and has never proved himself at the highest level, neither has O Driscoll

Well jesus, what a load of tripe, I will accept you dont think Henson has proved himself (two grand slams, two grand slams, two grand slams,two grand slams) but O'Driscol, jesus christ talk of the typical, I only started watching rugby when England won the World Cup viewpoint. Go and look up his play during the last Lions tour to Australia, he was breath taking against the best team in the world at the time.

Shane Williams never proved himself at the highest level either is complete rubbish look at the tries he scored against SA last summer, he also tore the NZ defence to shreds during the 2005 world cup and he has scored plenty agaisnt Australia too.

It annoys me when people of differing nations fault him for few real reasons when its more based upon the amount of points he's stuck on them in the past

and it annoys me when people are too stupid to see the talent for the game that Henson has in spades too, but in a team sport scoring tries and lots of points isnt on its own indication of how good you are. Wilkinson was good but was never the best in the world unlike a number of the people he played with for england.

Well jesus, what a load of tripe, I will accept you dont think Henson has proved himself (two grand slams, two grand slams, two grand slams,two grand slams)

I only started watching rugby when England won the World Cup

Or did you mean the 03 world cup where NZ beat wales 53 – 37?
I bet the All black defence considered themselves well and truly "torn".
Oh, hang on is that the word cup that England WON? (WORLD CUP WORLD CUP WORLD CUP) so gloriously by a Jonny Wilkinson drop goal in the dying seconds? Oh, I think it was.

Backhander you are making yourself look foolish. Your comments about Henson are just pitiful. He may be a prima donna, he may be orange, he may shave his legs but he is a exceptional rugby player.

And I thought the Lions was supposed to bring the four rugby nations together! 😀

No we all hate each other really!

(Fancy a pint, boys?)

I just can't wait for that first test! Should be awesome ... 🙂

Steve

Pigface, please read my earlier post;

I fully understand the Henson thing, I think he's a fantastic player who is rarely aknowledged for being as intelligent (on the field) as he is

A A is spot on.

BOD and Williams have without a doubt proved themselves at the highest level. I have a mate from my rugby days that continues to question Shane Williams. I just don't get it, I really don't. World player of the year FFS.

Never heard anyone say it about BOD before. Best outside centre of this generation IMO - though I know a LOT of people would agree.

Henson I think has more to prove, and lets face it with his off the field antics he is always going to have to do more. I think he was instrumental in both of Wales' grand slams though. Not suprised he is not in the Lions due to fitness questions.

BOD and Williams have without a doubt proved themselves at the highest level

Backhander you must be on a wind-up now.

Williams was probably considered useful by a few people when he was named IRB World Player of the Year 2008.

O'Driscoll is probably the most complete centre of his generation. Its unfortunate that you've eliminated the 6 Nations from the reckoning as BOD as just been named player of the tournament for the 3rd time in 4 years. He'll just have to be content with his match winning performances in the HEC, Irish victories over South Africa and Australia and 3 Lions tours as a Test starter.

backhander - Member

BOD and Williams have without a doubt proved themselves at the highest level

Enlighten me. As already stated, the 6N do not count.

[url=

Shane's rubbish, isn't he?[/url]

Backhander not in the slightest 😀

When have I ever said that SW is rubbish?
FFS. You have a poor arguement and so make false accusations.
Have a word with yourself.

I just tried to click on that youtube link and I've been blocked (I'm in work).

My computer tells me that:

'The web site is categorised as: "Illegal/Questionable;'

Hmmmmm??

Can't we all just be friends 😉

Oh and why doesn't a good performance in the 6 nations count? Why do we have this hang up on S H rugby? You can be world class for your club side and be in a p!sh international team that always loses (Ieuan Evans for example) Just because you've never beaten New Zealand does not make you a lesser player.

Why aren't they taking Chris Patterson again?

Why aren't they taking Chris Patterson again?

That was one of my thoughts as well. I suppose 1/2p does give another kicking option, but Paterson is guaranteed points. Best kicker in the world, bar none at the moment and could well have been a game winner if things got tight! Plus, he's a pretty versatile player, surely a good thing on a tour.

Backhander, I can only assume you are fishing

The SH would love a tournament of the 6N's calibre. If you truly believe the 6 nations do not count then you probbaly missed some of the autumn internationals where even Scotland (2nd bottom last 2 years) could and should have beaten SA. Wales (4th) did not to badly either if I recall.

BOD would be a shoe in for NZ also.

Why aren't they taking Chris Patterson again?

Why would the SH teams envy the 6N?
Because of the 6N teams, there is only 1 in the top 5 of world teams?
Or perhaps because only 1 of the 6N teams has ever won a world cup or even reached a final?
As for SA, no teams ever play well straight off the back of a WC win.
While I don't disagree that BOD and probably SW would make any team in the world, the 6N is not and cannot be judged as world class until it's teams are judged as such, which at present, they're not.
Rankings;
1. NZ
2. SA
3. Aus
4. Ire
5. Arg
6. Eng
7. Wal
8. Fra
9. Fiji
10. Sco
I'd happily accept 6N wooden spoons year after year and win world cups! 😀

He gives the long kicks to someone else, usually Godman, or Parks (if he is playing) he takes plenty of hard kicks from way out on the touchline, but he doesn't have great distance. Any penalty inside the 10m line is usually guaranteed points if he is playing.

But I agree that he isn't lions quality in anything other than his kicking, he can make good breaks occasionally but doesn't have the speed to put them away, plus he is too small to go up against the boks.

BTW the reason that he is the 'best kicker in the world' is that he gives difficult kicks to other players

Utter rubbish! He gives the long range kicks to other players, not the same thing. He slots from both touchlines on a very regular basis.

His range is probably comparable to the much hailed Johnny. Just that within range CP is better!

No surprise he was not taken though as the squad has some great kickers and stonger players in the positions he covers. Do think he could have been a useful bench player as he covers all the back 3 and stand off

SRO got in before me. His arguments make sense to me though 🙂

Could have been worse, they could have taken charlie bloody hodgson or fat andy goode. The current favoured English fly halves are poor.

Utter rubbish! He gives the long range kicks to other players, not the same thing. He slots from both touchlines on a very regular basis.

I'll accept that - it was a bit of a troll!

Do think he could have been a useful bench player as he covers all the back 3 and stand off

We don't really need any more cover in the back 3, especially by a player who isn't really a wing anyway and has just been slotted in there to make sure he is on the pitch.

10 is different though, we do need cover. Looping back to the original argument, would you then take Patterson over Hook/Cipriani/Flood etc?

The 6N's is envied by the Southern Hemisphere for a whole host of reasons not all of them purely playing (history, tradition, following).

My point is simple. The 6 nations teams (Italy excepted) could all run all of the big 3 (4 if including Argentina) from the SH close and are capable of beating them

The world rankings can be misleading. Scotland beat Argentina in Argentina the last time they played for example!