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There's something not right if you can book £20 Advance tickets from Liverpool to Glasgow, but to do Southampton to Glasgow avoiding London costs ~£140 Advance.
You could probably get the Southampton-Glasgow cheaper by splitting the journey up into separate tickets, but why are they making things so damn complicated?
Thanks Maggie, for selling off British Rail in the late 80s, it's an absolute shambles these days!
Thanks John Major, for selling off British Rail in the early 1990's, it's the best thing to happen to UK rail in the last god knows how many decades 😉
Ok, so it looks like some people like face planting thier own foreheads, fine I’ll run with that.
But instead of being all stroppy, why not come up with some solutions..
I proposed DLR based system, yes it has failings and yes there are functions within that could be utilised in the rail network. But do we need drivers at all.. why not replace them with gps and a mechanical finger???
Ok, seriously. Anyone know how the Crossrail network will be “manned/womanned”?? And will it have the Coldstream Guards on it too??
Thanks John Major, for selling off British Rail in the early 1990’s, it’s the best thing to happen to UK rail in the last god knows how many decades
No, it really isn't.
Ok, seriously. Anyone know how the Crossrail network will be “manned/womanned”?? And will it have the Coldstream Guards on it too??
![00 Crossrail Train Protection Dec 2019 [online]](http://www.railengineer.uk/wp-content/uploads/00-Crossrail-Train-Protection-Dec-2019-online-1024x395.jpg)
Taken from https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/01/08/signalling-crossrail/
Happy now? Still think you can fix it?
But instead of being all stroppy, why not come up with some solutions..
I proposed DLR based system, yes it has failings and yes there are functions within that could be utilised in the rail network. But do we need drivers at all.. why not replace them with gps and a mechanical finger???
Not seeing anyone being stroppy, you're trying to be clever, and you're wrong, which makes you look silly.
There is nothing material that you can take from DLR if you were to upscale automation. It's akin to saying "the car wash at my local garage draws you through automatically, why haven't we automated the M25 like that?".
Solutions... Insosfar as you can determine exactly where every single train will go and be at a specific time and place and there are only finite combinations it is vastly easier to automate railways than roads. You would need every single train and railway to be 100% covered with lidar/radar in order for trains to be able to 'talk' to each other and identify where they are, plus have obstacle detection and what not.
Obviously for it to work to its full potential you need every train to be so equipped, the inclusion of any person-controlled train totally compromises the system, because people make mistakes. It's certainly not science-fiction, but it's not trivial, and I suspect it'll be decades away because of the cost, which I suspect could be measured in the trillions.
The Thameslink Core works principally because there are no junctions, hardly any other traffic, everything stops at all the stations. It's basically a metro service.
Crossrail will be staffed exactly the same as all other routes - there will be a driver, who drives. There are not going to be guards, but I'd expect an on board supervisor to help people and what not. I imagine many services will be driver only operation.
No, it really isn’t.
Yes, it really is.
Crossrail will be staffed exactly the same as all other routes – there will be a driver, who drives.
Thought it would be a driver who drives on the bits to Shenfield and Reading, but a train that drives itself in the core section (just like Thameslink core section, etc.), with a "driver" that gets to press some buttons. But then Crossrail core section is also self-contained.
They really should spend more money on automating the trains rather than on automating driverless cars. But then I guess there's not a car driver's union, unlike for train operators. Don't need Lidar/Radar for the trains. But you do for cars.
Not seeing anyone being stroppy, you’re trying to be clever, and you’re wrong, which makes you look silly.
Me look silly?
Highly doubtful, I’ve along way to go to catch up with some of you lot.
Anyway, Crossrail... Guards or no Guards?
They really should spend more money on automating the trains rather than on automating driverless cars. But then I guess there’s not a car driver’s union, unlike for train operators. Don’t need Lidar/Radar for the trains. But you do for cars.
Why don't you need lidar for trains, out of interest? I mean, I know they can't swerve, but again you can't upscale something based on the idea of everything being where it should be according to some predetermined factors. At the moment if a driver sees something he can phone the signal centre and say "there's debris on the line" or whatever, you can't blindly have trains trundling up and down without any insight. Well, you can, but you'll get more accidents, and that's not going to gain much popularity.
Yes, it really is.
I'll bite. Go on Andy, explain why.
As far as I, a member of public, sees it, separating it all out, tendering to cheapest/undeliverable franchise and focus on profit not service is starting to show through the service we are all bemoaning. At least here in Scotland there are fewer companies and parties involved.
I don’t think it is as simple as saying it is down to private companies skimming off all the profits at the expense of investment. The private industry hasn’t helped itself over the years, but the current mess is really more to do with services being specified and procured by civil servants who really wouldn’t know a train if it ran them over. Throw in a poorly performing and poorly regulated infrastructure provider (which by the way is nationalised), and the scene is set for the current mess.
I don’t know what the answer is but I know it will not be achieved without primary legislation, and that’s not going to happen because the current government is too busy and is likely to remain so for some years to come. So the best we’ll see is small incremental improvements (hopefully!) for the foreseeable.
There are not going to be guards, but I’d expect an on board supervisor to help people and what not. I imagine many services will be driver only operation.
So no guards, correct?
And YOU’D expect an onboard supervisor, correct?
What about the train company providing the service, what do THEY expect will happen?
YOU IMAGINE many services will be driver only, correct?
What does the train operator say WILL happen?
You have a vivid imagination and high expectations.
Or blind faith, which maybe fine in a non passenger transport service.
See, I DO have quite a long way to go to look silly don’t i?
What the **** are you talking about?
The unions want OBSs, I’ve not seen definitive confirmation, but it’s likely they’ll be present for most services, like much of the network. The trains can operate driver-only, so perhaps they will all operate as such. I don’t profess to be an expert on staffing of Crossrail, and I’m genuinely not sure of your point by highlighting my use of the word expect and waffle about my expectations?
You picked up on my views, posted something about Crossrail (which didn’t answer the question) and you proceeded to give your own opinion on staffing..
As you confess, you are not involved in the decision making process about whether Guards are/are not on Crossrail.
Just seeking clarification, as you do when someone posts something you do not understand.
T’is all.
And don’t be all stwoppy, it’s not a quality.
ECTS and ATO are not in operation in the Core.
Not yet for ECTS. Most of the RF infrastructure is in place. What’s ATO?
Sorry I didn’t realise you asked a direct question. No guards on Crossrail services, I’d already said that, hence not answering the second time.
That’s not the same as there being a staff member on board though.
ECTS and ATO are not in operation in the Core.
Isn't the Core moving block? It’s interesting to see on Southern how the Thameslink services are consistently given priority, presumably so they can get through the Core without screwing everything up!
What’s ATO?
Automatic train operation. What the Tube/DLR/Thameslink services use.
Sorry, my bad, not sure about the Core proper for moving block, my bit stops at London Bridge. That’s still colour light signals.
Yes, that bit definitely is! I’m sure it’s colour light at the southern end of Blackfriars too, it’s just Blackfriars to St Pancras that’s moving block I think.
Yes all infrastructure in place and a few trains have gone through in ECTS mode.
No need for Lidar for location, track circuits or axle counters tell us where the trains are. However when we have a problem with track circuit or axle counter (showing occupied when it shouldn’t, for example) the quickest way what’s going on is for a driver to look.
Even under ATO there will be drivers in cabs, would be madness not to. Driver only is not safe either IMO the driver should not leave the cab, with driver only that’s the only way to sort out problems.
Where you based Ming?
I was in “the Cinderella” dept specialising in CSR, NRN and spot schemes but GSMR is very boring to work on so I’ve changed roles completely and am now in the Daily Mails most vilified/hated Railway Worker role, something I feel I need a badge for, like Stephen Fry’s. I’m in training, hope to pass out around Xmas.
What about you Lifer?
There's a simple answer to this. Tax, and a government which is interested in using it to invest in things that benefit normal people rather than buying off their donors/supporters. Every time I cross the channel and use the trains or trams I'm flabbergasted at the sheer efficiency and modernity of it all. You don't find people in the Netherlands being shipped around like cattle in pacer trains that can barely stay on the rails. But do we spend billions on upgrading local transport that millions of commuters use daily? No, we spend it on HS2 which a tiny few business users will use to get to London from the regions a few tens of minutes earlier. And no one other than a few nimbys makes a fuss. We really do get what we deserve.
Signaller on the core out of TBROC
No need for Lidar for location, track circuits or axle counters tell us where the trains are. However when we have a problem with track circuit or axle counter (showing occupied when it shouldn’t, for example) the quickest way what’s going on is for a driver to look.
Even under ATO there will be drivers in cabs, would be madness not to. Driver only is not safe either IMO the driver should not leave the cab, with driver only that’s the only way to sort out problems.
Yes, for clarity I was talking about a future world with true automation of everything, ie autonomous trains, hence saying it’s decades and trillions of pounds away. Then I’d want lidar.
Dazh
To be honest it is hard to see any government raising taxes to spend on transport - when you have the nhs, education, social care, and defence in the queue public transport will only ever come a very poor last. And there is billions being spent - it is just that most of it is in the South, or as you say on HS2, which I pretty much agree with you on...
To be honest it is hard to see any government raising taxes to spend on transport
Of course they won't. Until the people demand it. What I don't really understand is that in Europe it's a no-brainer. Pay taxes, spend them on proper infrastructure that most people use. Why is it different here? Who is making the case for it to be different? The labour party are at least making the right noises, but does anyone have any faith they'll either follow it through or make a good job of it? More to the point will the people actually vote for it? We're bloody good at moaning in this country, and very shit at turning that anger into positive action.
The SNCF Is billions in debt, and cutting lots of services. Where I live, buses are used to replace trains. Trains are empty though, so to me it makes sense .
The TGV is great.
UK rail carries a higher percentage of passenger traffic than most European countries including France Germany. So not a total failure. In my admittedly limited experience of using Scottish trains the services are normally comfortable and on time. I'm going First Class Glasgow to York later this year at £42 each way. Chosen as an alt to driving.
Doesn't feel 3rd world to me.
A lot of French rural services are poor too (and getting worse as Chris says), it’s an extremely Paris-Centric network, far more so than ours is biased around London. The TGV Network is superb, but it’s lacking beyond that.
Lifer - I’m on 1C94 approaching Horsham, if you can give us a nice quick path 😉
To be honest it is hard to see any government raising taxes to spend on
pretty much anything. Even when parties propose an increase they talk about 1p for higher tax payers. Taxes used to change fairly often 30 years ago to meet the needs but they have to keep them static these days otherwise the voters won't be happy.
If people wanted all of the public services to be better they would happily vote for 5p on the 20%, 10p of the 40% and 15p on the 45%. That would bring in enough money to have a chance of providing great public services. But can you really see that policy being a winner...
Ming, whats the DM's most vilified role?!?
Lifer – I’m on 1C94 approaching Horsham, if you can give us a nice quick path
he'll be sat with his feet up letting the ARS do his job 😉
NRN? Sheesh, we were trying to kill that off when I left over 20 years ago, surely its not still going?
Ming, whats the DM’s most vilified role?!?
Driver, I'm guessing...? Which TOC Ming?
NRN? Sheesh, we were trying to kill that off when I left over 20 years ago, surely its not still going?
The fact Ming is retraining probably means it's not 🙂
What I don’t really understand is that in Europe it’s a no-brainer. Pay taxes, spend them on proper infrastructure that most people use. Why is it different here?
Presumably stems from Beeching's death-knell in favour of cars no?
UK rail carries a higher percentage of passenger traffic
Do you mean rail/car passengers is higher or passengers/freight on trains is higher?
Presumably stems from Beeching’s death-knell in favour of cars no?
Well I'm not an expert here but I'm not sure it does. The UK rail network I think was far denser than a lot of European countries, and I suspect still is.
CSR and NRN long gone.
ECRO in training
Now I see why the vested interest...
Yowum all Train Drivers 💪🗣🗣
The UK rail network I think was far denser than a lot of European countries, and I suspect still is.
UK now = 16,000km
UK pre-beeching = 30,000km (but I think was much higher years before that?)
France now = 30,000km (population almost same as UK)
Germany now = 43,000km (population about 25% higher?)
Still don't think they can really be compared though, given that a huge chunk of UK is practically deserted, and another small area has such high throughput that one single station can exceed the entire network passenger throughput of smaller countries. And Germany is a country with no single city performing all the tasks of a Capital like in UK. And it's like right in the middle so shedloads of freight has to go through it, because it's in the way.
3rd world trains would be BR up to the 80's, with slam door trains. Thankfully that's all gone now.
UK now = 16,000km
UK pre-beeching = 30,000km (but I think was much higher years before that?)
France now = 30,000km (population almost same as UK)
Germany now = 43,000km (population about 25% higher?)
If you're going to compare route KMs then surely you need to look at area, not population? Ie France is roughly 2.5 times the size of us, with less than double the route mileage, plus they have significant amounts of high speed line duplicated by 'classic' routes running in parallel, which is overstating their coverage.
Germany is about 50% bigger than us, so their coverage is vastly better.
That's only really half the story as well I guess. If Beeching hadn't closed all of those routes would we really have had a markedly better service? The pinch points would still be just as bad, you're not getting any more trains into the big termini, indeed it would likely effectively be fewer because they'd have come from all the tiny loss-making subsidiary lines.
ECRO in training
Wassthat? Electrical Control Room Operator (from Google!)? Pretty sure the DM's never heard of them, let alone hated them!
I don't claim to be an expert, but a friend of mine who could be fairly described as a train nut basically summed it up to me as 'the best railways are Swiss and Japanese- one is publicly owned and one is privately owned. What makes the difference is that they spend a lot more money on them than us'. I don't know how true it is (I had a look at the time and it seemed to fit with what I could find, but Wikipedia caveat and all that) but it seems to make sense.
The question to me is always 'how much do we want to improve the railways and how much are we prepared to pay for it'. HS2 gets a lot of bad press, but arguably it's a large investment in railway infrastructure to increase capacity, at modern speeds. Out of curiosity how do the people in this thread criticising this large government run bit of spending on railway infrastructure square that criticism with their view that everything else on the railways would be better if the government was running it?
I can't pick a side- railways seem like a place where you can't get proper competition between train companies. It doesn't seem practical to have a system where you could buy a ticket for a particular train company operating on the same line as others, so it makes sense to have it run as a monopoly by the government. On the other hand then you end up with very little motivation to improve things beyond the individual 'pride in your job' level.
Tricky one I haven't figured out.
If it's not privatised then it doesn't have to be a huge state monstrosity / monopoly.
Make it be several transport regions where "state owned" is actually a union of the local authorities. Like having several TFLs. That way trains, buses, trams are all properly linked in single ticketting systems.
The only national bit that "needs" to be national is intercity (and freight).
Still run open-access services on it.
Oh that just described the German rail / transport network (that people claim is a state monopoly, but isn't).
Still don’t think they can really be compared though, given that a huge chunk of UK is practically deserted, and another small area has such high throughput that one single station can exceed the entire network passenger throughput of smaller countries.
That's why I said denser, not longer. The density and therefore the number of junctions and intersections of journeys and lines is what causes the issues. The USA has 250k km of track, but I'd wager it's far simpler as most of those kms are crossing open prarie without bumping into each other.
The US is an interesting example as, broadly speaking outside of the North East, the infrastructure is owned by the freight operating companies, and they provide track access rights to Amtrak for passenger services. This means the passenger services are the lowest of the low priority and are frequently many hours late!
With domestic air travel being so cheap in the US long distance rail travel is really one for enthusiasts!
The only national bit that “needs” to be national is intercity (and freight).
Not sure I understand what you mean? Nearly all services join cities, unless they're suburban. Are they "intercity"? There are plenty of PTEs that operate metro services in and around their area of authority. That doesn't work on a wider basis though.
Out of curiosity how do the people in this thread criticising this large government run bit of spending on railway infrastructure square that criticism with their view that everything else on the railways would be better if the government was running it?
Personally my concern is the separation of rail infrastructure, operating companies and government. It seems a complex, issue laden way of running a rail system that should be coherant, reliable and simple at point of access. And at present, it is not. It is better in Scotland (we only have one main company), but the issues I and family have had this year all stem from multiple companies being involved, none of whom put passenger first.
As for HS2, I am generally for it. My concern again is that we already have companies milking it for every penny of profit - delay and overspend almost from week 1.
Out of curiosity how do the people in this thread criticising this large government run bit of spending on railway infrastructure square that criticism with their view that everything else on the railways would be better if the government was running it?
its about accountability
TFL is a great example of how to do things, but its he Mayor of London who gets it in the neck if it goes wrong, so more of that please.
HS2 however, if that has huge overruns, who bears responsibility?
Talking about HS2, and bringing things back to cycling:
It's a depressing article to read 🙁
What is it people are actually wanting? Not being obtuse, genuinely don't understand.
It talks about tunnel widths, which suggests they're meaning a cycle lane adjacent to the railway, which given it avoids most major settlements seems a bit weird; not many people will want to cycle from London to Birmingham.
But then it makes lots of talk about crossings. Flat crossings on a high speed rail route are a really, really, really bad idea, it's where the DLR comparison stacks up nicely - you want to minimise the chance of people and trains coming into contact (literally), so then you're talking about bridges, and I'm not sure I'd expect cycle lane bridges to criss-cross a railway, there aren't many currently after all, just use the roads. 😕
The MPs sound like ****s though, which is hardly surprising.