The benefit for me is when the remoaners finally STFU but I don't see that happening any time soon.
Can someone tell me the issue with an EU army?
Well we'd never have had the victory of Dunkirk if our army had been run by Germans would we?
We'd never have beaten napoleon if we had to rely on foreign commanders would we?
In honesty the issue I think is a perceived lack of [edit: national not armed forces] autonomy and belief we still need an independent national standing army where as the EU army would, ultimately, replace national armies. NATO is a command structure really, forces in NATO are still the forces of their home country and, NATO involvement doesn't necessarily mean national involvement. Look at operations over Kosovo Syria and Libya, an EU army would be joint and obligated deployment which is a problem.
I don't personally think we need a standing army but, given the political implications of deployment of one, I'd certainly not advocate releasing decisions over its deployment to people who may not share your national interest - and if it needed unanimous approval for deployment there's no point having it as it'll be nothing but a budget drain that's never deployed.
Ultimately the EU army only really works with at least a federalised EU (something of which I am in favour vs the current state of affairs, though I'd go further) so long as people are interested in lines on maps though its a bad idea but it's a non starter for exactly that reason. It's very much "project fear" like Turkish membership and so on.
One of her plus points to Brexit was we’ll be able to wrap our fish and chips in old newspapers again. Apparently the EU banned that. I don’t have the energy to fact check this nonsense any more
Save you the bother, I already have. We haven't wrapped our fish and chips directly in newspaper in our lifetimes, it was stopped with an English law covering general food hygiene* passed in like the late 1800s. We used to use newspaper to wrap food after that but it was an outer wrapping over food-grade paper and the non-stick stuff that everything always sticks to.
Anyone telling you they remember chips served solely in newspaper and they "don't taste the same any more" is lying misremembering.
Plus, in any case, **** all to do with the EU.
(* - man, that's a hard word to spell.)
'ahh no, I only wanted bendy bannanas and now there's this chaotic inferno of hate. Ahh well at least the bananas are all bendy again......like they always ****ing were.'
The benefit for me is when the remoaners finally STFU but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Opposition is a cornerstone of UK parliamentary democracy and attempting to silence that is the work of a dictatorship. If you hate democracy so much why don't you move to Russia?
A good friend of mine voted Brexit to prevent his two (primary school aged) boys being conscripted into the EU army.
The penny seems to have dropped at long last, but bloody hellfire.....🤦
The benefit for me is when the remoaners finally STFU but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
But, hey, if we've got a leaver here, why not tell us of all the benefits we can look forward to? This is your perfect chance to educate us, if I understood how we'll be better off then I'd support brexit myeslf.
We haven’t wrapped our fish and chips directly in newspaper in our lifetimes, it was stopped with an English law covering general food hygiene* passed in like the late 1800s
Whilst I've no doubt that it is indepently passed UK law not EU derived, c19th sounds very unlikely as dates go for that given what was legal with food and not known about general food safety at the time. Certainly I remember news print transferring onto fish and chips as a child and I'm not that old.
The law you're referring to will likely be the Sale of Food and Drugs Act 1875 but it doesn't actually have anything to do with containers or packaging. It makes it illegal to amongst other things, pass off and put harmful additives (eg lead) into food, to dye (rotting) meat to make it look fresh and so on, all of which were common practice.
Probably the statute which finally brought the practice to an end was the Food Safety Act 1990 which still doesn't expressly forbid newspaper but you'd never have managed to prove your newspaper meets the requirements of law (to be hygienic) if required to do so. The big thing with the food safety act was it became statute law, so guilty until proven innocent, that you had to do things which were safe, so unless you could prove your newspaper was safe and hygienic your guilty. Until then it was criminal law which made it illegal to do things which were dangerous, so unless your news paper was provably bad, you were fine.
The benefit for me is when the remoaners finally STFU but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
If that's the best benefit of Brexit is it any wonder Remainers are unhappy?
More seriously if there are all these sunlit upland opportunities why have the leaders of Brexit done little more than spout lazy tropes and wooly promises while belittling the concerns of Remainers and blaming them when things don't go their way rather than engaging with them and carrying them on the journey.
Leaving the EU is a massive change management project. If we put something new in at work and I'm responsible for it then it's my job to seek out the doubters, the concerned and the resistant and not to pillory them or blame them because it doesn't work or call them names.
My job is to engage with them, to help them see the benefits in a way that appeals to their desires and objectives and to bring them on the journey.
I guarantee that if I behave like a weapons grade **** about it that I'll get more resistance, more complaints and low compliance.
There's a lot of pissed off people out there who are seeing large parts of their lives turned upside down and inside out and leaders and others representing the "winners" are behaving abysmally. Instead of trying to carry the disaffected and show them the benefits they are blaming them for their **** ups, calling them names and totally ignoring their concerns.
This is part of why many Remainers are so utterly browned off.
The law you’re referring to will likely be the Sale of Food and Drugs Act 1875 but it doesn’t actually have anything to do with containers or packaging. It makes it illegal to amongst other things, pass off and put harmful additives (eg lead) into food, to dye (rotting) meat to make it look fresh and so on, all of which were common practice.
... and ink contamination from newsprint, no?
Certainly I remember news print transferring onto fish and chips as a child and I’m not that old.
Are you certain?
I remember chips wrapped in newspaper, but never directly wrapped in newspaper, and I was born in 1972 (and have eaten a LOT of chips!)
No one must have told chip shop up here about the change until the 80s - 90s as I definitely remember it’s not a false memory at all. They didn’t taste better but the beef dripping soaked paper and ink stuck to them was quite pleasant.
The good thing will be the dissolution of the UK.
Instead of trying to carry the disaffected and show them the benefits they are blaming them for their **** ups, calling them names and totally ignoring their concerns.
This is part of why many Remainers are so utterly browned off.
And that works both ways.
Leave are pissed off because they've felt for years that their concerns have been ignored. Remain are pissed off because they've been told that their concerns no longer matter because they "lost." So three years on we're now all pissed off, and the powers that be are playing silly bastards rather than actually addressing any of the issues raised by either side of the argument.
All hail PM Swinson and the revoking of A50... Make it so!
Let this lunacy end, I'm really not sure I can mentally cope with another ~10 years of this testicles while worse deals are made than we already have as part of the EU, nevermind the personal financial crippling.
This is why many Remainers are so utterly pissed off.
By and large we're peeved because we're looking for sensible answers to an emotional question. We can't get them and that annoys us. You may as well ask why someone is in love with someone who you think is a tool, or a fundamentalist Christian to tell you why Eden not Darwin. You'll not get an answer you like, you'll not get an answer you understand and largely you'll just piss your self off trying.
Leaving the EU isn't about it being a good idea, it's about the fact people want to do it, they feel like they want it, they're passionate about it. Remaining is about sensible, practical and pragmatic but, until 4 years ago almost no one was actually excited about being in the EU, no one was passionate about it and for the most part we're still not, we're just incensed by how stupid leaving it is. Remain is painting your walls beige, it's the sensible choice but by gods it's dull. Painting them pink on the other hand (preferably empire pink) is utterly foolish and yet makes the people who do it happy.
… and ink contamination from newsprint, no?
A) the ink would have to be known to be injurious to health, it wasn't (known to be at least)
B) even if it was, the 1875 act prohibited deliberately mixing them into food and drugs, contamination was a non issue. (for comparison commercially pulling drinking water directly from the Thames only became illegal in 1852 and (water companies were given 3 years to stop) after it was proven the sewage and the like in the water was getting back into supply
With my <mod> hat on here for a minute,
I appreciate that I've been guilty here too, but if this thread wanders too far off topic into a rehash of That Thread then we'll have to close it. Can we not do that please.
Cheers.
</mod>
Yes, I would agree with that on a subjective level, and that's what features most to many people.
On a more objective level the UK has fought for and had a series of carve-outs that deal with some (not all) of the leave camp's concerns but we've failed to really communicate that and the trading benefits, preferring to blame the EU for any unpopular UK political decision and then generally taking credit for the good bits.
As you say we've not historically really tackled the concerns of the Euro-sceptics whether that's by acting on them or by better communicating why those concerns were not valid or were offset by other benefits.
Sorry just seen the post above - I shall stay on topic going forward.
Blue passports, sure they'll look lovely 🙂
@garage-dweller Exactly. No arguments with any of that. Aside from the passports.
Are we still getting get our Brexit 50ps? Back in August there was talk of them being ready for October 31st when we finally leave. But I've not seen any news recently of how they are getting on with that plan. How long does it take to mint a new coin? Would they have started already, or is it something they could do after the 17th of October when Boris comes back from the EU Summit with his deal?
Brexit 50ps seem like the best thing to come out of this whole debacle.
Is that with 52 on one side and 48 on the other? 😉
It's already happening
On a close to home note- It's kept the weirdo's busy in the ref thread :o)
Political reform across Europe
Great Britain is becoming teeny tiny Britain
Less income for most
Wake up call for many
Killfile. Get your killfile.
You'll be glad of it in three...two...one...
No more cheap labour so all employers will pay more
And pass the extra costs onto the end consumer. Slight lack of joined up thinking there I think
Its been said Brexit in the thread but I agree with it.
It's not about any benefit now. If you tell the true believers they will be poorer etc. that's now immaterial.
Where a No Deal was once seemingly just utterly impossible and consisted Project Fear by Remainers... It's not actually PREFERRED by many Leavers.
Basically Boris could now stand up and announce that the country will be poorer, that there will be food and fuel shortages, that jobs will suffer but should we still get on with it!?
The predominate answer would still be to get on with it.
England (mainly) has a psychological disorder but there is no one to section it or give it meds.
So yeah, the benefits of Brexit, even if there were any, is utterly unimportant now. Mad eh?
Hopefully boris will lose his appeal.
Then the good stuff can start.
We’d never have beaten napoleon if we had to rely on foreign commanders would we?
I see what you did there, and I approve.
Will we be able to get rid of the foreign St George bit on the flag and come up with a proper symbol for England?
Brexit will be disruptive to the economy.
Properly managed, that could be minimised, and the advantages of being on our own maximised.
Change is not necessarily bad.
But how the hell did it end up such a pantomime run by clowns? It's like handing the controls of a F1 car to a learner driver at 200mph.
Maybe the good thing to come out of it will be a catharsis in the political system in the UK which will create a demand for proper democracy and the sweeping away of the anarchic structures of the anti-democratic Establishment.
OTH pigs might fly...
One of her plus points to Brexit was we’ll be able to wrap our fish and chips in old newspapers again.
Missed the boat there unfortunately. With newspapers sales are declining, there won't be enough to go round. She'll have to somehow wrap her chips in the Side-bar of Shame.
Departing Poles will be replaced by arrivals from Calais
as much crocodile and kangaroo meat as your dog can eat and a revolving washing line (Hills Hoist) in every UK back yard, 3rd hand Juicy Lucy campers.....and people from Stoke on Trent can leave the Weatherspoons behind and come and work in Australia....pretty soon its a deal that will take only months...I've just cancelled reapplying for my visa
[i]Britain wants a freedom of movement deal with Australia to allow people to live and work in both countries without a visa.
The UK's Trade Secretary Liz Truss put the plan back on the agenda today as she held pre-Brexit trade talks with Australian Trade Minister Simon Birmingham in Canberra.[/i]
hold on apparently the Aus' government is playing negotiating games...
[i]It comes after Prime Minister Scott Morrison indicated last month he was not open to a New Zealand-style agreement with Britain.[/i]
Properly managed, that could be minimised, and the advantages of being on our own maximised
What are these advantages and how can they be maximised?
The end (or at least, the beginning of the end) of the myth of British exceptionalism.
The only benefit I've thought of is the recovery of the British seaside, as foreign holidays become more expensive, people will holiday there instead.
But it feels somewhat pyrrhic.
There is a clear benefit but you have to put yourself into the mind of a racist. I would guess around 50% of the country are racist in some way with around 10% extremely so.
The fact we can control who comes to live and work in the UK is a big thing to a racist as in theory you could stop everyone coming if you wanted to.
The fact that we need the immigrant workforce for the country to run and the overall immigration numbers won't change much is irrelevant to them as them are not looking at that.
Three pages in and the best reason so far is the vague possibility of having chips wrapped in newspaper...
I've heard 'We'll be able to get much better trade deals on our own, and it'll lead to greater competition' stated by friends.
Yeah, fair point, I imagine the US and China can not wait to give us some utterly astounding deals.
I thought America and China were just rubbing their hands together with gleeful excitement just awaiting the fire sale.
The fact we can control who comes to live and work in the UK is a big thing to a racist as in theory you could stop everyone coming if you wanted to.
Sadly, this is what I believe is the actual perceived benefit for most leave voters, too. They just want foreigners to disappear, and think they will do so after Oct 31st.
Brexit will be disruptive to the economy.
Which is code for people wil loose their jobs. People will loose savings and pensions. Some areas of the UK will experience economic hardship. People's spending power will be reduced resulting in further loss to local business and then dropping tax revenue.
Yay!!!!
Some old woman phoned James O’Brien sometime ago. One of her plus points to Brexit was we’ll be able to wrap our fish and chips in old newspapers again. Apparently the EU banned that. I don’t have the energy to fact check this nonsense any more
Fact checks take time ... I found her other argument far weirder. (paraphrased)
>"The EU stops Wetherspoons buying non EU beverages but now they can but from where-ever they like"
>>James 'O' Brien - "but we are still in the EU"
>"We voted leave so he can now source his drinks from elsewhere"
>>James 'O' Brien - "but we are still in the EU and he is doing it presumably legally now"
>"because We voted leave"
>>James 'O' Brien - "but we are still in the EU - perhaps I'm not asking the right Q's - if it is illegal (which I don't think it is but I'm not an expert) then how he currently importing non-EU drinks"
>"I'm not a clever business man like him, you'd need to ask him"
What is weird is I don't think the woman was stupid, certainly not THAT stupid ... but somehow she genuinely seemed not to get it.
This is something at the level of mind control from cults.
Brexit Impact study done by Pembrokeshire council.. the only potential positive they could come up with was there will be "reduced demand for services if population reduces".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45044334
There would possibly be an increase in tourism for the area too.
This may be offset if the Valero Refinery closes.
Pembrokeshire voted 57% leave too....
I try to be balance when I think about this, there's far too much tribalism going on, but really the only answer is "who knows?" because until the deal is done no one knows really.
You might argue "we'll no longer be bound by EU law" but with our absolute veto power we're not anyway, at the moment we can influence the EU, but they can't impose anything on us if we really don't want them to.
We won't be paying in anymore, we do pay in more than we get back, that's part of being a rich country in a club with poorer ones, but there's not an economist worth their salt who'll tell you that we won't lose anyway because of the fall in GDP and tax rev.
For lots of people though it's not economic or political, it's more personal. They fear the EU has control over their day to day lives and they hate it. It's xenophobia really. To a lot of people someone from France, or Spain, or heaven forbid Germany having a say on what measures they buy their milk in is horrible. Make no mistake, you might argue about all the real, tangible reasons why Brexit is a terrible idea, but they don't care, they will pay the price for 'sovereignty' The Rees-Moggs and Farages of the world have whipped them up into a frenzy to influence them into making them millions and millions of pounds they didn't really earn.