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We don’t really know what the real outcomes will be
I think we do, in some cases. We know that trade and industry will be negatively impacted. That's why the whole thing was set up in the first place.
The new schemes will be very prescriptive and complex and, whilst undoubtedly able to deliver more targeted environmental goals, unless you have a free unit of labour, like a dedicated farm secretary or land agent on the books of the farm you probably won’t be claiming anything.
Maybe an opportunity for an agency?
"Do you farm in Wales? Check to see if you have a claim! No win no fee!"
If after that they have failed to take advantage of their ability to set policy independent of Europe then that will be the point we can label it a failure, but until then we simply don’t know.
We had plenty of ability to set policy independent of europe, repeating brexiteer myths about the EU holding us back doesnt make them true
We also had a great deal of influence to set policy from within the EU (the changes to CAP being a good example)
you keep talking about the sunlit uplands if we just wait a few more decades.......... what policies exactly do you want to see enacted that we couldnt before
tbf even on pistonheads theres not many so vocally defending brexit, seems to be viewed largely as a mistake, theres a few die hards, but just as opinion polls show, the public is slowly realising its failed
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=92&t=1982344&i=120
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=205&t=2018570&d=0#seperator
We don’t really know what the real outcomes will be
In which case it should not have been proposed until the outcomes were costed and known to be beneficial.
In which case it should not have been proposed until the outcomes were costed and known to be beneficial.
I don't disagree, but we are where we are. Brexit was always a risky shot in the dark forced on us by arrogant and incompetent tory politicians. But shit happens, and now we have to deal with it. Are we going to let the fact we don't like brexit stop us from trying to make it work, or are we just going to wallow in a pit of self pity?
Perhaps the thread title should have read, Brexit benefits for the UK and UK residents? The few advantages are all for other European countries or people living in them!
I wonder how many people who voted for Brexit understood what the EU actually was?
Apparently on the results day, the most common Google search was “what is the EU!”
If you couldn’t answer the above, you should not be able to proceed to answer the question on whether the UK should leave or remain.
Are there any advantages to Brexit for normal middle of the road, hard working people in the UK?
You’ve probably seen me write this before, but “Brexit isn’t the destination, it’s the vehicle”, and one of the greatest Trojan Horses ever.
It’s enabled the UK to move from its (slim) social democratic destination to one that will make life harder for those either not fortunate to be born into privilege or not able to get themselves into privilege through either intelligence, work, education, luck and/or criminal acts.
It is then maintained by making life even harder for those outside this privilege group, and once you’re in it you’ll do ANYTHING not to drop out. Go live & work in the USA for a while, this is our destination – just don’t be poor (or unlucky)…
This is the key “benefit” from Brexit, but only for a very, very limited number of people.
I suppose the question was reasonably open ended and therefore the detail of specifically who a Brexit benefit applies to to needs to be stated.
Those already with money and privilege, and/or looking to create an unequal environment more like America...
Banks/fund managers, Fossil fuel companies and logistics companies looking to hoover up Utilities and public services and run them "for profit" will all benefit from the coming decade or two of slowly loosened laws and regulations and gradually de-clawed regulators.
There might be a slight slow down while SKS has his stint in No.10, but I'm not sure Labour can (or indeed really want to) halt "the project"...
I'm a lorry driver, so got a big pay rise, as a lot of the eastern European drivers left the UK. Unfortunately, everything costs more because of the increased logistics costs.
uselesshippy - how much better off are you now than 7 years ago?
Then:
- Discount 30% of net due to inflation
- Look at your payslip to see the impact of income tax, frozen allowances mean that the 40% rate is moving down the income scale
- Mortgage - same calc, paying more less as a ration of borrowed money
Still better off, oh and add on any costs that previously you never had to pay - on holiday for example, we paid insurance as now not covered in the EU and roaming charges (it all adds up).
Discount 30% of net due to inflation
Inflation caused by the combination of the pandemic squeezing supply chains and the spike in energy prices due to the Ukraine war. Brexit played very little part in the inflation we're experiencing now.
Look at your payslip to see the impact of income tax, frozen allowances mean that the 40% rate is moving down the income scale
UK govt policy to supposedly address the debt accrued during the pandemic. Bollocks all to do with brexit.
Mortgage – same calc, paying more less as a ration of borrowed money
See above on inflation.
Seriously, do better. Not everything we're dealing with today economically is a result of brexit. Not even a medium amount of it in fact.
TBH the ehic/ghic still valid but you’d always want to take travel insurance as it’s usually got the repatriation cover.
Seriously, do better. Not everything we’re dealing with today economically is a result of brexit. Not even a medium amount of it in fact.
TBH Brexit was an enabler for the type of numpties we’ve had running the country for the last 3 PMs and the associated hangers on.
While the tread has highlighted the lack of apparent Brexit benefits for the UK, dazh does make a valid point that you kinda just have to suck it up and get on with it now. Even if there were to be another referendum to rejoin the EU I can’t imagine member states (apart from ROI) rushing to welcome the UK back in given the conduct of UK MEPs prior to leaving and of UK politicians during talks since Brexit. While I don’t take a deep interest in Economics things seem to be going reasonably well for EU states without the UKs involvement.
@intheborders I am better off, because I don't have a mortgage, and I'm nowhere near the top tax bracket. But, the small financial benefits are far outweighed by the masses of negatives.
Inflation caused by the combination of the pandemic squeezing supply chains and the spike in energy prices due to the Ukraine war.
You missed wage inflation due to scarcity of the right labour off your list. All those from Eastern Europe who saw no benefit from being here and went home. Also inflation due to a reluctance to export foodstuffs into UK due to the long waiting time due to red-tape and a lack of staff.
Seriously, do better.
"Inflation caused by the combination of the pandemic squeezing supply chains and the spike in energy prices due to the Ukraine war. Brexit played very little part in the inflation we’re experiencing now."
This happened to every country in Europe. But we have the worst and most persistent inflation because Brexit has added further costs, due to extra red tape (didn't they say Brexit would reduce red tape?!), extra transport costs (delays at borders), reduced choice (suppliers choosing to sell to other markets instead) and a shortage of the right staff, etc. It's laughable and painful that "project fear" was so right.
I tend to avoid this stuff these days, it reminds me of work, when there's an accident or incident, most folk spend effort on finding out who to blame, rather than looking at a solution, Brexit is done now, it was daft, it was self harming, but it's what it is, all we can do as a nation is fix whatever we can to make it better, reality is we (No to Brexit) just didn't respect the right wingers, pensioners and so on when the vote was announced and happened, way too confident and flippant, and it ended the way it did.
What does "get on with it" actually mean though? For me, it means mothballing our small company which was involved in scientific research with various EU colleagues (bringing in about £100k and paying roughly £40k in tax over the past few years, luckily the country is rich enough that there are no consequences to ****ing up businesses). It also means narrowing our horizons regarding possible foreign moves. It's just putting up with a shittier poorer life with narrower horizons. Fortunately I'm rich enough it really doesn't matter, so I can put up with it, but I can't make anything good out of it.
You missed wage inflation due to scarcity of the right labour off your list.
I think you're going to struggle to argue to any working person that wage inflation is a bad thing. For many the whole point of brexit was to create the wage inflation which you think is so economically damaging. To them that's a massive benefit. Presumably you're rich enough that you don't need a bit of wage inflation?
So long as
A) everyone is working who wants to / can do so
B) every employer who needs labour can source staff
I don't believe either of those things to be true.
you kinda just have to suck it up and get on with it now
all we can do as a nation is fix whatever we can to make it better
We're posting here to vent. It's not like there's some other super positive thing we could be doing but aren't because of posting on here.
We're all 'getting on with it' every day because we have no choice.
The only way to make it materially better is to move towards SM/CU membership. I don't pretend this will be quick or easy but everything else is just tinkering around the edges and politicians on both sides continuing with the fantasy that we just need the One True Brexit to make everything ok are a large part of the problem.
While the tread has highlighted the lack of apparent Brexit benefits for the UK, dazh does make a valid point that you kinda just have to suck it up and get on with it now.\
Well yes but just whose responsibility is it to mitigate the undoubted issues caused and in the longer term fix those things which have been broken? It certainly isn't mine. Unfortunately those who dropped us into this mess don't seem particularly good at (or even interested in) fixing it.
The only way to make it materially better is to move towards SM/CU membership.
Absolutely. (like you I only have a green rosette so have to type likes) And it would be nice if the likes of Starmer were honest enough to admit that and make policy accordingly. I don't see how any of what Starmer proposes:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/18/keir-starmer-labour-eu-trade-brexit-election/
can be reconciled with most favoured nation rules without a customs union.
For many the whole point of brexit was to create the wage inflation which you think is so economically damaging.
Right up until they want their car serviced, or some electrical work doing, or a taxi somewhere - and then they find out other people’s wage inflation hits their pocket directly.
But of course it’s only rich folk that have cars or take taxis or need electricians.
No one is suggesting that certain things in these countries that form the UK didn’t need rebalancing. The suggestion is that overall Brexit pushes them further out of balance, further away from the desired outcome of millions of voters (on both sides of the vote).
I can’t imagine member states (apart from ROI)
No not really. Ireland is quite happy to have friends like Germany and France.
“I think you’re going to struggle to argue to any working person that wage inflation is a bad thing.”
Wage inflation is no use to anyone if the cost of living is going up faster than your wages. I voted for the tories in what seems like the distant past - they used to seem to be the party that would run the country best economically, thus having the potential to make everyone better off. But the last decade or so they’ve been an economic disaster.
My small business is surviving but we’re making less money that we would have done, and paying far less in VAT because it now gets claimed at the other end for all our EU sales - so our hard work here makes money for EU governments when our government used to get that money! It’s a pretty big chunk of money considering how small this business is. No wonder it feels like the country is bankrupt…
The only way to make it materially better is to move towards SM/CU membership.
Yeah, that's what the politicians can do. All we can do is continue to discuss it and understand what happened and why. Calmly and respectfully. That's what'll bring people round, and when enough people have been brought round the democratic pressure will start to build.
Yeah, I know the polls, but right now it's still too raw and too fresh.
For many the whole point of brexit was to create the wage inflation which you think is so economically damaging. To them that’s a massive benefit. Presumably you’re rich enough that you don’t need a bit of wage inflation?
when wage inflation is outstripped by actual inflation it makes people poorer...
are people really that economically illiterate?
when wage inflation is outstripped by actual inflation it makes people poorer…
Think we might have crossed some sort of weird rubicon where anti-brext people are now repeating the nonsense from Sunak, Hunt and Bailey that the inflation we're suffering from is caused by higher wages. Seriously, is that where this debate is now? This inflation has not been caused by wage growth, but maybe, just maybe (in some sectors) being out the EU has allowed wage growth to catch up to soften the blow. That's not a bad thing, for significant numbers of people it's an enormous relief.
Good luck with getting the inflation down.
Petrol price today at Shell yesterday was 151.16p.
Brexit, lack of workforce (immigrants from EU & the World), wage inflation etc are just some minor factors which are insignificant by comparison to energy cost.
The nail in the coffin will be the "green" policy that all silly govts try to implement and to impose at the wrong time. It is a bit like trying to build a toilet when the poo is already ready to burst out from the back end, and the chances of a soiled trousers is very high now.
Brexit played very little part in the inflation we’re experiencing now.
Without Brexit would Putin have invaded? And why is UK (core) inflation so much higher than our 'competitors'?
UK govt policy to supposedly address the debt accrued during the pandemic.
Oh, so somehow Covid's £400bn is a problem but not the £1000bn the Tories had already borrowed (2010-2019)?
Not everything we’re dealing with today economically is a result of brexit.
Who said it was?
I voted for the tories in what seems like the distant past – they used to seem to be the party that would run the country best economically, thus having the potential to make everyone better off. But the last decade or so they’ve been an economic disaster.
I guess the 1992 Black Wednesday debacle passed you by, and the following (almost) 5 years of dire economy?
Without Brexit would Putin have invaded?
Oh come on!
I voted for the tories in what seems like the distant past – they used to seem to be the party that would run the country best economically,
You were hoodwinked. The Tories borrow more and pay back less than the Labour Party. Labour should make more of it but they dont.
Without Brexit would Putin have invaded?
What!!!? Seriously, you're blaming the Ukraine war on brexit?
And why is UK (core) inflation so much higher than our ‘competitors’?
Energy prices mostly, and quite a bit of corporate greed. The UK govt could have stopped inflation in its tracks, but that would have meant govt intervention in the market which they are ideologically opposed to. It's got a lot to do with tory ideology, and not much to do with brexit.
Oh, so somehow Covid’s £400bn is a problem but not the £1000bn the Tories had already borrowed (2010-2019)?
That is why I said 'supposedly'. Irrespective of whether it's necessary (it's not!), the stated policy of the UK govt is to 'reduce the debt' (it's one of Sunak's five key promises), and one of the main ways they're doing that is by raising more tax by freezing thresholds against inflation. It's got nothing to do with brexit.
But the last decade or so they’ve been an economic disaster.
The tories have always been an economic disaster. Their economic modus operandi is to take money from working people and give it to the rich asset class. That results in an entirely dysfunctional economy where investment is discouraged and rent-seeking is rampant. As someone who runs a small business you've been voting for the wrong people I'm afraid. At least you now seem to have realised that. 🙂
This inflation has not been caused by wage growth, but maybe, just maybe (in some sectors) being out the EU has allowed wage growth to catch up to soften the blow. That’s not a bad thing, for significant numbers of people it’s an enormous
this does not make sense- real pay has decreased , and as you say labour shortages hace helped raise wages, but that has also slowed the economy, meanwhile the effect of brexit has had a significant impact on inflation https://www.bbc.com/news/business-65962027.amp
as for Putin, brexit was always going to be a victory for him, You only have to look Russia Today's output during the ref campaign to aee that
https://twitter.com/lunaperla/status/1280174095720689664?t=tVS4zjybtZHFSIrCFpPeOQ&s=19
What!!!? Seriously, you’re blaming the Ukraine war on brexit?
I didn't say that, I said "Without Brexit would Putin have invaded? "
It's a reasonable question, but you seem incapable of understanding it, like many other questions you just blank - IME you're just another believer, and it comes across on many posts.
Getting one of Russia's biggest critics out of the EU was a definite brexit benefit for Putin
TBF when Johnson as home sec went to the EU after the Skripal poisoning the EU gave a stronger response than russia expected
https://twitter.com/EUReuters/status/973643703372976128
similarly Ill bet they were very upset by Johnson's response to the Ukraine invasion considering all the money they'd pumped in to the Tories!
https://twitter.com/MarsPioneer/status/1592969223998955521
“Without Brexit would Putin have invaded? ”
The more relevant question would be whether Johnson wouldve been so quick to make headlines helping out Ukraine if he hadnt been balls deep in the Patterson/Pincher/ Bodies pile high scandals at the time
Just popped back to see if any "benefits" have been added to the growing list........nope. I'll pop in again tomorrow .
IME you’re just another believer, and it comes across on many posts.
A believer who voted to remain and would vote to rejoin given the chance. 🙄
I just refuse to join in the circle-jerk of self-pity and recrimination. There are far more important things to be worrying about, and this ongoing obsession with a decision made seven years ago is distracting us from tackling those other things.
this does not make sense- real pay has decreased , and as you say labour shortages hace helped raise wages, but that has also slowed the economy
For those who have benefited (like our lorry driver who posted earlier), their real pay would have decreased even further. Which number do you think working people care about more, GDP or their monthly pay packet?
And as for inflation, a direct quote from the bbc article you posted.
"But in total, the LSE team reckons the changes could have accounted for over a quarter of the rise in food bills we've seen since the end of 2019. By contrast, the cost savings in new trade deals agreed since then have been minimal.
So while Brexit may not have been the biggest reason for our surging food inflation, the higher costs it added may have played a significant part."
So around 25% of inflation is due to brexit. So 75% - three times more - is due to other sources. That's exactly in line with everything I've said, because I've never pretended brexit has no impact, just that it's not nearly as much as other factors like energy prices and the disruption from the pandemic.
See above about obsessing about the wrong things.
are people really that economically illiterate?
Yes. You can see it in every form of social media and news publications.
It's an utter bin fire. Just like the referendum.
There are far more important things to be worrying about, and this ongoing obsession with a decision made seven years ago is distracting us from tackling those other things.
This again. Many of us have made changes and shoulder the burden of cost and time lost every week to the "benefits" of Brexit. The little bit of time spent discussing Brexit is sod all compared to the time lost because of it. Put it around the other way... why are you spending so much time contributing to another thread on Brexit yourself?
More importantly... "there are other more important things to deal with than our relationship with the rest of Europe" (which I've always agreed with) does not amount to a "benefit" of Brexit, and nor does it remove the brakes it has put on our country for the foreseeable. It still needs sorting. Brexit isn't "done" and all the hard work is yet to come... expect decades of discussion. I'm sure they'll be some benefits in those discussions at some point (honestly not seen any yet myself, and this thread hasn't helped me yet... some people knowing they can get away with motoring offences abroad and bankers getting paid more aren't positives in my life) but if they ever outweigh the negatives I'll be very surprised.