Forum menu
PS to the trade deals and genocide thing. The lack of a trade deal doesn’t prevent trade - just makes it more difficult and costly. And governments do trade deals but do very little trade - that tends to be businesses.
Polling research from Ipsos MORI suggests that turnout in 2019 ranged from 47% among 18 to 24-year‑olds up to 74% among over-65s.
If you look at countries that publish voter turnout by age group (for example the US) it's even more extremme when you look at the very oldest and youngest voters. 18.4% of the British population is aged over 65*. If the over 70s hadn't been able to vote, Brexit would not have happened.
* or it was before Covid
The lack of a trade deal doesn’t prevent trade...
And the (rejected) amendment wouldn't even prevent a government from signing a trade deal... but it would require legislation that parliament would get to scrutinise and vote on, rather than the government doing a back room deal. MPs may well approve such a deal, if they could amend to exclude any sectors that could be seen as supporting genocidal actions, and could add in clauses on human rights (see EU EBA style arrangements for unstable states in Africa, for examples of such exceptions and clauses).
I do however think that there is a difference for those who used a platform to promote the untruths, to mis-direct or obscure the reality. There are a group of MP’s, celebrities, business people and members of the public who went out their way to influence others. I still would accept a contrite reply as your friend – however I think there are many who are either doubling down or won’t push back.
This is pretty much who Donald Tusk was referring to:
The gullible & useful idiots I can forgive, to a point, but I'll still remind them they voted for this on every single occasion.
They voted to make me, them and 99% of us poorer and as they'll see a basic dismantling of the UK's welfare state & universal healthcare paid for by the sacrifices of ordinary folk during two World Wars.
But those backers & pushers that Matt described - **** you, and rot in hell.
On brexiteers changing their minds. Its to be encouraged and applauded. they were duped
Whilst i totally agree with this - i'm not quite there with the forgiveness yet.. particularly with those industries like fishing who voted so overwhelmingly for BREXIT.
I'm still at the F*ck them stage..
And the (rejected) amendment wouldn’t even prevent a government from signing a trade deal… but it would require legislation that parliament would get to scrutinise and vote on, rather than the government doing a back room deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Reform_and_Governance_Act_2010
This exists, to ensure treaties are put to parliament 21 days before ratification. Obviously the current parliamentary makeup means that ratification would be more or less assured.
Whilst i totally agree with this – i’m not quite there with the forgiveness yet.. particularly with those industries like fishing who voted so overwhelmingly for BREXIT.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Those hit hardest by the changes coming down the track deserve our understanding, especially if they couldn't see them coming and voted to enable them. It's going to be hard for so many sectors over the next decade, we can't start abandoning those where it happens to be the case that more people fell for the con than did not.
This exists, to ensure treaties are put to parliament 21 days before ratification
That didn't cover trade deals. We were in the EU then. Recent legistation explicitly gives the executive full control over how we approach trade deals, they can choose to include parliament as little or as a much as they see fit, when they see fit. So far, votes on post Brexit deals have been at the last minute, with no opportunity to scrutinise or revise.
Edukator - I think we are agreed really. Given that the old vote disproportionately, but also tend to be more likely to die in a 5 year period then taking 5/60ths (5 years out of the 20-80 average voting range) then the change in the effective electorate will be 8.5% plus a bit for the fact that the average death was more likely to be a voter. Plus a bit for C-19 obviously.
And more again if the younger voter works out that actually they will have to live with Brexit for some time unless they do something while an 80 something won’t. Not that there’s anything they can do this week. Four years to go.
Although I do recall something suggesting that those old enough to recall WWII were slightly in favour of the EU and it was the boomers who tended to Brexyism (massive generalisation of course).
That didn’t cover trade deals.
It was mentioned by Greg Hands yesterday.
Finally, I remind the House that ultimately if Parliament is not content with a trade deal that we have negotiated, it has statutory powers, under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, to prevent ratification by resolving against ratification indefinitely. That is in addition to Parliament’s power to vote down any necessary implementing legislation, again thereby preventing ratification.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2021-01-19a.793.3&p=10180
I honestly believe that no one should feel shame for how they voted in the past.
In all circumstances? Personally I beleive that sometimes people should feel ashamed of how they've behaved in the past, and that includes voting (i've certainly done things i'm ashamed of!). And if they can't manage shame, then certainly accountability. People voting have put Trump in power, Johnson in power, Orban in power - there must be accountability there.
On the genocide amendment thing - those who were against it on this thread - you're supportive of doing trade deals with countries currently engaged in genocide? I struggle to get my head around that - tear up a trade deal with the EU, but one with countries committing genocide - fine?
to prevent ratification by resolving against ratification indefinitely
Parliament can not stop the singing of a trade deal.. it can not force it to be modified... it can keep delaying ratification... but the deal can still come into force on the date the executive agreed when signing, with the contents it agreed to without consultation with parliament. Rubber stamping... with no say.
I'm struggling with the forgiveness too. It is generally accepted that politicians lie, that most of what is printed in the tabloids or put on Facebook is utter garbage, and yet all the Brexiteers I know went along with it, with very little thought beyond stopping immigrants or what was printed on the side of a bus. I think for there to be forgiveness, there needs to be contrition, and I haven't personally seen a great deal of that yet.
You won't get contrition. You won't get the UK back in the EU. So... we need to deal with what is coming down the tracks... and "you voted for this shit, hard luck" is entirely unconstructive... "they lied to you, don't trust them"... and ..."hold their feet to the flames to sort this out" might be.
I must admit though, the "give them the benefit of the doubt, again" approach of some, knowing what they know now about the lies of those that now govern us, very frustrating. What has to happen for some people to see that the problem is the conmen and women, as much as the con they have got away with?
On the genocide amendment thing – those who were against it on this thread – you’re supportive of doing trade deals with countries currently engaged in genocide? I struggle to get my head around that – tear up a trade deal with the EU, but one with countries committing genocide – fine?
Don't think anyone has said that they endorse trade deals with countries engaged in genocide on this thread
There is a fairly large part of me that thinks, you've made your bed lie in it. I'm fine to forgive if people change their mind, but I will certainly think that the person has exhibited poor judgement.
I do struggle with the insinuation that we all need to pull together and make the best of this terrible situation. I have been and will doubtless be further impacted by brexit and this Tory government, but at a macro scale I'll be fine... A lot of the people who will be most impacted will be those who voted for it.
Don’t think anyone has said that they endorse trade deals with countries engaged in genocide on this thread
I thought someone suggested that the reason for not voting for it would be as it might prevent a trade deal with China?
I do struggle with the insinuation that we all need to pull together and make the best of this terrible situation.
Depends... when some people say that, they mean to just accept the terrible mess we are now in... where as I think we need to vastly improve our arrangements with the EU (and others) to reduce that mess. We won't be members again, but there are many ways we can work with the EU, and others, beyond the limited narrow horizons set for us by the incompetents that currently run the country. Visa wavers for musicians is just one easily understood example... but closer cooperation as regards education, trade, travel... it's all possible... and, ultimately, necessary, if we want a broad economy and society.
I thought someone suggested that the reason for not voting for it would be as it might prevent a trade deal with China?
Yes it was me, I wasn't condoning genocide, or doing trade deals with countries involved in it. I was pointing out how it would hinder the gov when making a possible future trade deal with China.
What trade deal with China? What year is that likely to be signed?
where as I think we need to vastly improve our arrangements with the EU (and others) to reduce that mess. We won’t be members again, but there are many ways we can work with the EU, and others, beyond the limited narrow horizons set for us by the incompetents that currently run the country. Visa wavers for musicians is just one easily understood example… but closer cooperation as regards education, trade, travel… it’s all possible… and, ultimately, necessary if want a broad economy and society.
Ah ok. Agree with that. I think we can improve the shit show (e.g join single market) but I think that can be seperated from not holding those responsible to account (the government and those who voted for brexit) - in order to improve things haven't people got to realise it's a shit show?
What trade deal with China? What year is that likely to be signed?
You are right there isn't one
Yes it was me, I wasn’t condoning genocide, or doing trade deals with countries involved in it. I was pointing out how it would hinder the gov when making a possible future trade deal with China.
Surely the only way that the amendment would block a trade deal with China is in the case that a court found China was engaged in genocide. A court is going to be more objective about that than the government, so what was the problem with the amendment?
That it is very likely that China are involved in genocide.
So do you think we should do a trade deal with them?
If anyone thinks the UK has any leverage with the Chinese in a trade deal negotiation, they've got to be kidding:
UK "We'll not sign this trade deal including billions of pounds of investment in our deliberately under-invested critical national infrastructure until you stop the suppression and genocide of the Uighur people"
China "OK, then, bye."
We don't have to have a trade deal with them.
If we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot economicaly I'd rather we do it to make a statement about genocide than about whatever the reason for brexit is.
I get ****ed off by a lot Brexiteers i know (non of whom run businesses or employ anyone) telling me to crack on.
I am not here to sweep up after other peoples stupidity.
I have said this before - the brexiteer folks above say well your doing ok what they dont understand is brexit has stopped me employing at least two grads and i have lost two clients.
Its these odd and ends that slow the economy.
Death by a thousand papercuts.
"Look son, you've smashed the house up, burnt down half the houses in the street, torched the hospital, nicked a bulldozer and driven it through a load of small businesses."
"Well I'm sure you did it because a naughty friend told you that you'd get a lolly pop for doing it. Well you're not getting a lolly pop, but we'll just pretend it wasn't your fault and I'll just imagine you've learnt a lesson."
"What's that? You off out, son? You be careful with those petrol bombs..."
Is that the prodigal son? If he becomes more aware of the result of his actions, and who he should listen to in future, praise him and help him.
Kevin - just to check your reasoning, and I’m not questioning it particularly but “We won’t be members again” - why?
Because UK folks won’t vote for it or because EU types ain’t that stupid?
PS - I am questioning your reasoning in the longer term. Countries are merely things that are useful to people, they come they go, and as the world shrinks, they get bigger. Look at the number of kingdoms there were in England at one time. If not the EU we’ll become part of something very much like it geographically.
Such as, igm? There are geogrpahic constraints that make becoming something very much like it but not the EU somewhat problematic. As for countries coming and going. Compare a cold war map of Europe with a current one. I can see no sign of countries getting bigger.
And no, us Eu types aren't that stupid. It'll take a new generation of UK voters to vote for a party that is neither Labour nor Conservative, because Europeans have learned that doing business with either of them is just trouble.
Educator - over time, most of Britain will be in some sort of european zone. I was thinking a little longer term than Cold War though. Germany is a fairly recent invention though, as is Italy.
I agree something like the EU but not the EU isn’t likely in the short term due to space constraints if nothing else (😉), but a Northern European entity and a southern one doesn’t sound outlandish.
As for post Cold War, which I hadn’t really been considering, you might see East Germany, Poland et al drifting into an EU that might (hopefully in my view) drift towards closer political union, federalism even, as being not entirely against the continental drift I was considering.
the UK is not wanted in EFta is it? - the bit with Norway in. too big and would unbalance it. the french will veto any UK attempt to rejoin the EU for sure. Far too much trouble.
UK will be no more soon anyway and become even more isolated as little england
PS - I can understand the not that stupid view. I think I would hold that one too if sat in France.
PPS - empires do tend to collapse. Countries are distinct from empires.
TJ has a point about Britain because it is tending to act like the English empire at the moment - in my jaundiced opinion.
Because UK folks won’t vote for it or because EU types ain’t that stupid?
1) because no UK government would offer it to us
2) because the French won’t let us back in as a member
I agree with your reasoning about the UK being part of a wider Europe, as the EFTA countries are, eventually. But no, even when a majority of the UK public think we should rejoin, it will not happen now. Giving up membership was a one way thing, which is why doing so on a single vote, narrowly won, based on multiple contradictory premises that the winners dumped straight after the vote, wasn’t just foolish, it was a democratic failure.
We will never get back into the EU, they have got rid of "Uncle nob head" and can easily absorb the economic impact. They also got a cracking deal on the way out.
It simplfies their business model, removes a thorn and allows control to be centralised in Northern Europe, make them more attractive to external investment and drives them towards a stronger relationship with Russia, China, Japan and the USA - they also dont have the Hong Kong baggage.
To be blunt its almost perfect from an EU perspective.
even when a majority of the UK public think we should rejoin
Just for info/amusement, from whatukthinks.org
November 2020, 53:47 to rejoin.
It has been bouncing around a bit though.
There’s been a consistent majority who think we were wrong to leave for over two years now. (I’m blaming FFTP for the ridiculous Brexy majority we have)
My god we have ****ed up....
oldmanmtb2 - you might be right there (both your last two posts)
Incidentally, why bigger countries?
Balance of power, traditionally between countries, these days between countries and multinational companies / financial interests - particularly in the days of globalised finance and interweb.
The views stated are my own and not necessarily a reflection of a sane view of the real world (but maybe...)
I can see the rUK moving into a SM/CU relationship with the EU, but no further for a while. With a population uninterested in facts why would the EU want another Hungary onboard?
Brexit the gift that keeps on giving - or not.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/20/absolute-carnage-eu-hauliers-reject-uk-jobs-over-brexit-rules
Bet you cannot guess what the husband of the MP in this local news report does...
https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/19026193.shellfish-exporters-falmouth-penryn-23m-brexit-fund/
So, we’re already at the subsiding the fishing industry to make up for Brexit stage. Came sooner than even Project Fear warned.
How long will that £23m last? My guess is not very long at all. It sounds a big number but in terms of an industry it's peanuts.
Wasn't the fishing industry loosing £1m per day? £23m should cover until Saturday then.
even when a majority of the UK public think we should rejoin
17 million voted leave. Wonder if that vote was rerun how many would now vote leave. I reckon 5 million tops.
52 million voting adults in the UK.
In further good news, talentless **** can't get work in Europe.
Oh well mate, I still can.
TBH Daltrey's position isn't at all hypocritical. Proper rules for touring artists would have required literally no effort for the government to achieve- it was offered by the EU, with the only requirement being reciprocity, and was rejected for no apparent reason. You can absolutely be pro-brexit and still think that the brexit we've been handed is worse than it had to be, or that specific parts are completely moronic.
And he is, in the end, sticking up for other people- he himself doesn't have to worry about it.
Nahhh.
I think it's funny, he still caveats it and partially blames the EU by attacking Brussels.
He's a prick and got what he voted for, what the **** did he expect to happen when untangling decades and decades of closer economic co-operation.
Following publication of the letter, Daltrey, 76, said: “Every tour, individual actors and musicians should be treated as any other ‘goods’ at the point of entry to the EU with one set of paperwork. Switzerland has borders with five EU countries and trade is electronically frictionless. Why not us?”
Because people aren't goods they're immigrants and Switzerland may as well be in the EU, all of which vote leave hated.
You like The Who don't you Northwind....that's up there with Bono apologism.
Meanwhile.... just in case the EU start to forget what a petty little sh*t of a country we have become... we set out to remind them asap.
Trumpism continues to live on in the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55742664
Trumpism continues to live on in the UK.
Yep, and expect to see the EU & EU27 countries tighten their 'rules' on ALL UK citizens.
But hey, Brexshi**ers don't want to go to France.
The Foreign Office is insisting he and his officials should not have the privileges and immunities afforded to diplomats under the Vienna Convention.
It is understood not to want to set a precedent by treating an international body in the same way as a nation state.
What the actual ____! If we’re not careful, this will end up with our official representatives to the UN & NATO having their status reduced.
The £23m for seafood won't go far, and if they include the PM's words in the eligibility (if you didn't fill in your forms properly, that's your fault) then many won't be eligible as a large part of the chaos was caused by people unfamiliar with systems and getting it wrong.
Some might be eligible - such as if your load was caught up when HMRC systems went down last weekend. My view is that the £23M would be better spent on fixing the flaky systems, training on how to use them and resource in the logistics hubs to help people navigate them. Prevent future loses rather than patch a bit and leave systems so bad further losses are inevitable.
The Foreign Office is insisting he and his officials should not have the privileges and immunities afforded to diplomats under the Vienna Convention.
It is understood not to want to set a precedent by treating an international body in the same way as a nation state
Its a mixture of pettiness & wanting to keep the animosity up, to boost flagging poll numbers among the gammony base
Meanwhile…. just in case the EU start to forget what a petty little sh*t of a country we have become… we set out to remind them asap.
Brexit as performance art.
They've got nothing. They know it, we know it, on some level Roger Daltry knows it. (At the moment I'm rationalising vocal Brexit supporters as the guys that have spent the season bigging up their team and maybe even put a tasty bet on them. We are now on the Monday morning where they come into the office having watched their team yet again get absolutely dicked and not make it out of the group stages. Their sole contribution to the discussion is, "Well we WERE playing against 12 men" before going back to sulking at their desk. We've just got to hope they get to the "well the coach needs to go, if he can't deliver with that level of talent, then there is no hope" sooner rather than later).
Manufactured anger has proved an effective political tool to distract from actual anger. So we need to occasionally expect a man in a Union Jack suit hammering nails into his scrotum in a desperate hope that they will start trending on the social media dashboard in Number 10.
However, the circle is tightening. People that voted for this are realising immediate consequences. Traditional Tory voters are getting burnt, and I would imagine the newly minted "Red Wall" MPs are particularly feeing the heat. America has an adult back in charge. Actual decisions are going to need to be made by actual leaders.
Hopefully we find some and pay attention to them rather than Union Jack "It's so painful WE ALLLLLL FEEL IT!!! WHHHOOOO" McJackface.
I think many people just didn't get the fact that a market the size of the EU can internalise the loss of the UK fairly easily (German reunification for example) and place orders for stuff internally and also go globally to third countries if they need a better price (after all the UK is now outside)
We will still buy EU stuff because we can get EU stuff outside the EU (Think BMW)
Non of the above is rocket science or complex economics most of it is common sense and the route of least resistance.
The £23m for seafood won’t go far, and if they include the PM’s words in the eligibility (if you didn’t fill in your forms properly, that’s your fault) then many won’t be eligible as a large part of the chaos was caused by people unfamiliar with systems and getting it wrong.
This government is world beating at one thing: making grand headline-grabbing announcements of schemes that nobody actually qualifies for. See: Covid help for the self employed people that covers less than half of self employed people. The prize example being the Covid grants to help people self-isolate when asked to by track and trace. In the North West, 77% of these claims were being rejected.
I expect the Scottish fisherfolk will never see a penny of that supposed £23 million and will all quietly go bust, ignored by a Brexity press
Brexit: 'I was asked to pay an extra £82 for my £200 coat'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277
mean while amazon sorts the VAt for sellers....small business's are going to die.....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277
/blockquote>Surprise, dipsticks.
Sorry, nothing useful to add.
Other than this being just another woefully predictable result. Wailing from the hard of thinking about how Brexit just cheesed up their recreational shopping addiction.
I've only gone back a few pages, but in case any of you needed further cheering up.
Medical Devices need a CE mark to be sold in the EU. It's now not possible to get a CE mark without going to an EU notified body, and the overall regulator, the EMA, has moved from London to Amsterdam. Current CE marks roll over until June 2023, but then all devices will need a UKCA (Conformity Assessment) mark to be sold in GB, and a NICA to be sold in NI.
Thing is. They're going for a different set of regulations to that which has been used in the EU for the last few years, roughly based on the MDD rather than the current MDR. So, *every* device will need to be re-certified by 2023 or will have to be taken off sale.
It costs about £100k (ballpark) and months of work to do that for each device - expect to see a lot of companies decide that a market of 60 million doesn't justify it for less popular stuff. NI are particularly screwed, as the UKNI mark isn't the same as CE or UKCA. For a market of a couple of million expect (hope?) to see some emergency legislation as otherwise there will be almost no medical devices available.
Calamitous. We've gone from leading things and being instrumental in making the rules to forcing business abroad and rendering our market almost non-viable.
mean while amazon sorts the VAt for sellers….small business’s are going to die…..
they can always pay the Bezos tax....
We’ve gone from leading things and being instrumental in making the rules to forcing business abroad and rendering our market almost non-viable.
It won't just be medical tech that is free to make its own sovereign laws.
Brexit: ‘I was asked to pay an extra £82 for my £200 coat’
I think this may actually be an example of a successful outcome of Brexit for some leave voters. A wee kick in the knackers for the comfortably off and middle classes.
Brexit: ‘I was asked to pay an extra £82 for my £200 coat’
I think this may actually be an example of a successful outcome of Brexit for some leave voters. A wee kick in the knackers for the comfortably off and middle classes.
WTF?! how about turn that anger at the mega wealthy, £200 isn't cheap, but neither is it a particularly outrageous amount to pay.
WTF?! how about turn that anger at the mega wealthy, £200 isn’t cheap, but neither is it a particularly outrageous amount to pay.
spending £20 on a primark sweetshop special that’ll last a couple of weeks is good, spending a bit more, that hopefully was made in better conditions and is more durable is bad....
I
nickjb Free Member
What model of bike do you have? Or is that different?
Some serious missing of the point going on. 52% voted to leave. It was pretty obvious that leaving would make thing worse for people at the bottom so why did they do it? I don't think they were all disaster capitalists. There will be quite a few racists in there but what about the rest? If you don't think it was a protest vote, what was it? They even voted for Boris FFS rather than an actual left wing Labour. I can't say I fully understand but that "let them eat cake" attitude above does show there is an issue that we probably need to do something about (although it is hard when they keep voting against it).
Almost forgot, I have an On One 456
Nissan - Brexit deal is positive
"Chief operating officer Ashwani Gupta said the deal gives Nissan the chance to "redefine the industry" and described new customs procedures resulting from Brexit as "peanuts".
So not all bad then. And according to many on here the plant was dead in the water with or without a trade deal.
it is as other statements have made absolutely clear and as the reality is
Remember Johnson begging manufacturers to give him some good news? this is the result.
So not all bad then
I'm really pleased for the folk who work at the plant that their livelihoods are safe, it must be a massive relief for them. and don't forget, whatever Nissan agreed with the government under May was probably a big chunk of that. But that doesn't mean shit all for the folk who rely on FoM for their income though, and who're finding the hard way that their govt has just ****ed them...
what was it?
they were duped and lied to by people pandering to their petty xenophobia and delusions of empire
If you don’t think it was a protest vote, what was it?
Don't underestimate the huge numbers of folk who's reasoning for leaving the EU doesn't extend beyond "We didn't fight 2 wars to be ruled over by a bunch of foreigners" It's the most consistent "reason" I've heard from the brexiteers I've spoken with, regardless of age.
Remember Johnson begging manufacturers to give him some good news? this is the result.
That’s what £60m buys 🙂
So not all bad then
Brexit it in a nutshell.
After five years and countless billions we've gone from 'best thing ever' to 'not all bad then.' It's like finding a surprise M&M in your cat's litter tray.
Honda not leaving the UK would be better result tbh,
now we’ve got this fantastic environment where businesses can thrive without bounds, you’d think they’d want to stay.
Honda not leaving the UK would be better result tbh,
General feeling is the writing was on the wall for Honda UK regardless of Brexit. You need a critical mass of volume to make it worth their while building here rather than in Japan - their sales didn't support this and were getting worse.