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Hmmmm, Madame has just agreed to clear the shelves of tinned mackeral and sardines in Leader Price tomorrow.
Do they not get those from Brittany?
I believe most mackeral and sardines in French tins come from British waters so if some were being caught by British boats and exported there will be less arriving in France on the basis of the above news stories.
Over the last four years I've learned make personal decisions based on Brexit news. I'll keep an eye on the prices and availability of my favourite products and see if there's an impact. There's no indication of origin on the tins.
There was a French fisherman on the news who commented that French boats caught a lot of white fish that the Brits like and the British waters were rich in Lobster, sardines and mackeral that the French like, or something like that.
That's all true. But I thought the canning plants of Brittany were a big source of the tinned oily fish on French shelves...? But of course that could include fish caught by UK fisherman and exported fresh to be canned down there. All this working together is being thrown up in the air right now, isn't it. Depressing.
If you fancy cheering yourself up then why not have a read about the British ex-pats who are now finding out that when they voted to end Freedom of Movement, that means them too. 😀
Brexit leaves Spain's Costa Brits facing dilemmas
But they all knew what they were voting for, right?
tinned is not the issue Edukator - its the fresh stuff especially shellfish.
There was a French fisherman on the news who commented that French boats caught a lot of white fish that the Brits like and the British waters were rich in Lobster, sardines and mackeral that the French like, or something like that.
This is true - and also the shellfish for which there is no market in the UK. Squat Lobster, Velvet crab etc.
But they all knew what they were voting for, right?
They didn't all vote for Brexit.
They didn’t all vote for Brexit.
apparently we all did? Sadly it is going to get far worse over the next few weeks.
Telegraph: Foreign truckers bringing freight to Britain have raised their prices by almost 700% over impact of new customs controls and fears of getting stranded in the UK.
Silly question why do the trucks have to make the complete journey with the same driver and cab unit?
Apart from compatibility between trailers, and who owns and maintains it. Registration and MOT rules. Paper work hand over and tracking. What colour it's painted and whose logo on the side and does it match the cab.
But apart from that why do the trucks have to make the complete journey with the same driver and cab unit?
Shipping containers seem to manage.
It cant be beyond the wit of logistics (sic) to work out how to hand over loads to continental drivers for the European leg of a journey and the same for incoming loads to uk drivers?
Silly idea or too practical?
Have you been to a big container port mariner? It's impressive. Doing the same with trailers on any scale would be a huge undertaking. Possible, but ... just add time, money, hassle, space ... lots of. Same goes for all the fixes we'll come up with over the next few years. And then there are the fresh goods... that won't let you add to the journey times... and they are also the ones subject to the most checking, now we're outside the Single Market... it's a tough conundrum to crack... but the politicians don't care... it's all someone else's time, money, hassle, space and perished produce or catch.
It cant be beyond the wit of logistics (sic) to work out how to hand over loads to continental drivers for the European leg of a journey and the same for incoming loads to uk drivers?
Silly idea or too practical?
if only there were folk who did this as a job, you know, experts...
@mariner - there's "unaccompanied" freight crossing the channel, not sure what percentage. Truck turns up at port and drops off the trailer. This is then loaded onto the ferry by one of those funny looking tractor units. At the other end another funny looking tractor unit takes the trailer off the ferry and parks it up. Finally a UK/EU tractor unit arrives to take the trailer to its destination. There's obviously a limit at places like Dover as to how many such trailers can be left standing there and customs delays will reduce the overall throughput since the trailers have to be checked so the UK driver won't get the "come and pick it up" call until then.
Pretty sure all trailers have common hook up systems and common brake hoses.
if only there were folk who did this as a job, you know, experts…
Who needs experts 🙂
I think the experts may have actually mentioned this er disruption but Unicorn technology was supposed to make it all seamless.
What you need to do is some sort of agreement that makes it easy to just drive the lorries over like they used to back in the day.
NI Supermarket shelves empty (or as someone said 'not empty but full of opportunity'!!!)
In Belfast, Ulster Unionist leader Steve Aiken described the Government's response to the NI Protocol crisis as "woeful".
"The very real impact of the regulatory border in the Irish Sea is becoming clearer by the day," he said.
"It is impacting trade across the board and not just in the transport of foodstuffs. However, the UK Government's response so far has been woeful.
"They are living in cloud cuckoo land.
"We need to see action to deal with the issues facing businesses and consumers today."
On Sunday night the UK Government rejected the criticisms.
This is Brexit, it was fairly clear from 2017 that this is what would happen. Out of the SM and CU means paperwork. Deal or no deal really wouldn't change that much. It really doesn't reflect well on many British companies that we are where we are.
On Sunday night the UK Government rejected the criticisms
They never do. Never apologise. Never admit fault. Always blame someone else. The arrogance which accompanies their ineptitude is impenetrable. I don't know how long that approach is sustainable - for business or by govt.
Out of the SM and CU means paperwork. Deal or no deal really wouldn’t change that much. It really doesn’t reflect well on many British companies that we are where we are.
Yes, new paperwork has been on the cards for years. When did we know exactly what paperwork would be required when and for what? Christmas. Anyone blaming companies, or hauliers, or couriers for the current mess can do one. Details matter. Broad brush “get it done” approaches make great newspaper headlines, and even election campaign slogans, but in the real world, the specifics matter.
This is Brexit, it was fairly clear from 2017 that this is what would happen. Out of the SM and CU means paperwork. Deal or no deal really wouldn’t change that much. It really doesn’t reflect well on many British companies that we are where we are.
Are you suggesting it's the fault of companies that they weren't prepared for the fallout from a deal that wasn't completed until just before Christmas? Yes it was always likely there would be paperwork, but no one* knew exactly what that would be until the deal was concluded.
*and by "no one", I'm including HMRC, who had a few scenarios mapped out, but didn't know the outcome in advance either
It really doesn’t reflect well on many British companies that we are where we are.
Oh do go away. The guidance came out 6 hours before it applied. Yes, change was known. What level and detail of data had to go into what systems at what notice was not. And how the French would interpret it too. Herculean efforts from business are why anything at all is happening.
its not just paperwork - its also physical inspections. thats the main issue for scottish fishing
One issue for the white fish people is they're not all doing the paperwork properly TJ, so they're not getting to the vet / EHO until that is right. So under the sort of fish put in herring, rather than the scientific name (there are loads of different types of herring) and it will be rejected.
Hmm, yummy ,herring, the ones in the big oval cans, I like those. Please send us some.
I would, but we’ve run out… we normally bring 40 tins back from France each year. Not this year obvs. Not sure if we’ll be allowed to again as it happens. Not looked into rules for tinned food for holiday trips.
The guidance came out 6 hours before it applied.
But there was a 3 word slogan for it. "Check, change, go". That must have told businesses everything
That was probably our mistake. We were relying on the previous two word slogan from the PM of "F*** business". Should really have realised we should have spent Hogmanay implementing a three word slogan.
Interestingly as I watch Spanish YouTube I recently had an advert about keeping the light on for Scotland.
Alas, due to those horrid Europeans and their dastardly Brexit deal the sunlit uplands that were due this month are held up with incorrectly completed paperwork. Once that is sorted we just need some nice French lorry drivers to agree to bring them over, pay the import duty that we always told you there would be and we can start installation. That's if we can change the points based immigration system to get qualified workers to fit said sunlit uplands.
Oh do go away. The guidance came out 6 hours before it applied.
Fundamentally it was known in 2017, why the issues with M&S for example, sorry there isn't an excuse. We are in the the best case example, the paperwork the certificates etc all guaranteed. If your out of the CU/SM you get the border between UKr and PL, ie LONG delays. if you relied on time critical movement it wasn't happening. You can argue all you want but that is the very simple fact of where we were going. Yes its crap, but with a Tory party not interested in facts this was inevitable.
Yes there should have been an implementation period etc to at least give business a chance, but that was never going to happen after June. There aren't the systems, the people, or the knowledge in place to result in anything less than a mess. Sadly it isn't going to get better in the next few months, and it is going to be a mess for years.
but we did not know what paper work would be needed - we were told none. We were also told no inspections etc and no tariffs. so how could companies prepare when they did not know what they were preparing for?
mrmo, I'm afraid you appear not to know of what you speak. That the exit from CU / SM would create obstacles was certain - that certainty is only at a conceptual level. But that is something you need to prepare for in detail and that is what has not been possible. You do it by installing systems, creating data gathering routines and inputs / outputs to those systems and by resourcing them.
Which means you need the legal structure of the trading arrangements to do that work. The deal on Christmas Eve 2020 was the first time things like the % of goods to be checked became known. That's pretty fundamental to preparation (we're lucky at 10-15% - EU initially wanted 100%) on things like vet / EHO resources. Industry can only prepare for what government defines and the definition was too late.
The govt was told this for quite some time but ignored it. I know this because i was on the calls.
Out of the SM and CU means paperwork. Deal or no deal really wouldn’t change that much. It really doesn’t reflect well on many British companies that we are where we are.
Something tells me you don't spend much time doing paperwork for imports and exports. I don't, but I have had to fill in forms for myself providing services to foreign countries for work permits before I travel. It's not easy. I know exactly what I'm going to do, but the forms really make little sense. I have to choose from a list of things where none of them really apply - and if I choose the wrong one I can't go unless I get a full work permit that takes 30 days to get. When the customer need me there next week. So I ask around my colleagues to see if anyone's been to that country before and see what they put down. And these forms are created by an agency who handle this for us, but the questions are derived from the legislation.
And that's just me looking at some software. To expect fishermen and hauliers to be able to fill in a load of complex forms correctly on sight, with no experience - AND the customs people to get everything spot on first time - that's just not happening.
Yup... big recruitment and training drive required for all logistics, delivery and courier companies operating across the new borders. It'll get sorted eventually. Brits will need to have deep pockets ready if buying from... well, anywhere really. The fear is that EEA customers will just shop elsewhere.
At what point does the public start to get properly mad?
https://twitter.com/Alain_Tolhurst/status/1349408520949686281
There is a conceptual problem, there is also the cold hard fact that some supply lines will not work. That this has come as a surprise is my point.
At what point does the public start to get properly mad?
Overly honest moment of the day: Defra minister Victoria Prentis admitted she was too busy "organising the local nativity trail" to read the fisheries agreement in the Brexit deal when it was published on Christmas Eve
Didn't she read it before voting for it?
Had an answer from Trek, increases are Brexit and logistics.
A big eye opener is flying into almera, Spain, there are miles and miles of poly tunnels for fruit and veg.
In england, I hope you like turinps an cocckles. also quite nice food if cooked right.
increases are Brexit and logistics
Er... fancy that.
Had an answer from Trek, increases are Brexit and logistics.
But fear not, I've heard Brexiteers will be more than happy to cover the difference for everyone else.
Silly question why do the trucks have to make the complete journey with the same driver and cab unit?
Cheapest way to do it. One company takes responsibility for the load and only one set of costs, with the appropriate profit margin, and no storage issues. As soon as you introduce a switch of load then you get problems with it going missing, the onward driver/truck not getting there etc. The key to logistics is simplicity and having the minimum amount of stages the product has to go through. All of this is before you have to deal with split loads, time-critical delivery slots and loads that have to be kept in specific conditions.
All this mess that's unfurling even with low levels of movement (quiet time of year, lots of businesses shut, previous stockpiling) we're having difficulties now, what the mess is going to be like in a month or two when demand ramps up is anyone's guess.
That this has come as a surprise is my point.
It hasn't come as a surprise. The detailed requirements came with inadequate notice to implement, test and resource systems. Had the PM done his deal Sept or Oct the issues would have been minor on day 1, just as they will be in a month or two from now. Except the losses run up by many in the interim will be significant.
It should matter to you - the compensation paid by government will be added to the national debt we'll all end up paying for.
It should matter to you – the compensation paid by government will be added to the national debt we’ll all end up paying for.
It's not even that. Businesses will have to employ more people to handle the extra red tape, just to do the same amount of business and achieve the same turnover. We will overall as a nation be less efficient, permanently.
We will overall as a nation be less efficient, permanently.
In the European market. Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant.
Do you have news for us? Are we joining another customs area? No country or trading block is going to be able to offer us the friction free trade we had in the Single Market and Customs union we shared with the rest of Europe. We might get lower or fewer tariffs with a few big players, but that still means at least the same cost and hassle as we now have with the EEA. Others simply can not offer our businesses (and our population) what we had as EU members.
In the European market. Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant.
The UK is in Europe..., so you're correct for at least one country.
And prey tell us which countries you think we ought to be trading with now - be careful though, as I reckon that for every country you list one of us on this post will have worked there, and for a British company.
How will having no trade deal or the same as the EU allow us to trade more
Explain please
Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant
Brexit seems to be this idea that EU will decline so we're better off out of it. It won't. Rest of world will grow faster so EU will become a smaller part of the world, but it will still grow, be close and be wealthy. We didn't need to lose the EU business to go get the rest of the world.
molgrips
Full Member
It should matter to you – the compensation paid by government will be added to the national debt we’ll all end up paying for.It’s not even that. Businesses will have to employ more people to handle the extra red tape, just to do the same amount of business and achieve the same turnover. We will overall as a nation be less efficient, permanently.
I keep thinking back to the announcement that we will need 50,000 new border staff to deal with Brexit.
I have no idea what the average wage of those 50K workers will be to the country, but it would not surprise me if it was £50K (if you assume perhaps an average wage of say £35K, then the employer has to match NI and probably some pension contributions and HR staff and infrastructure, offices etc) - actually 50K may be quite conservative..... But if we go with 50,000 workers at £50,000 cost then we are looking at £2.5 billion per year just to provide the new border staff for leaving the EU.
And prey tell us which countries you think we ought to be trading with now – be careful though, as I reckon that for every country you list one of us on this post will have worked there, and for a British company.
Or sold there perfectly happily from a UK in the EU. North America, Middle East, Far East. Russia before sanctions. Nowhere we want to go that we couldn't.
Brexit is about looking outward to the world.
That is the direct opposite of the truth.
I keep thinking back to the announcement that we will need 50,000 new border staff to deal with Brexit.
It isn't just them. There's all the people involved in the process before it gets to the border too. HMRC estimated £20Bn costs in 2018. Government admitted at least £7Bn in July 2020. No-one is yet sure.
oldbloke
Free MemberNowhere we want to go that we couldn’t.
That apparently needs saying more often- the number of people who seem to think that we can now get ahead by trading with places that before we couldn't is crazy. Even if you learned everything you know about world trade from a facebook post that's just so obviously irrational. Who is there out there that we're suddenly going to strike a new trade deal that we couldn't before- the merfolk?
5thElefant
Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant.
We can look of course, but unfortunately the nature of trade is that people tend to trade with other people reasonably close by for most stuff. It’s just one of those things that happens. True for individuals, true for countries, but not exclusively true for specialist stuff.
Of course with fresh seafood, probably always true, full stop end of story.
What customs unions and single markets do is effectively make countries closer together in terms of elapsed transportation time, mutual recognition of standards etc.
Pity we chose not to do that.
The John Curtice link earlier today made interesting reading by the way. A lot of folk thinking we got it wrong leaving - bouncing around the 50% mark suggesting we should rejoin (which is gobsmackingly high considering)
5thElefant<div>
Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant
So, we have confiscated all the food in your kitchen, but the good news is you're now free to eat anything in your garden.
..not that you couldn't have previously, of course, but now your kitchen cupboards will become less relevant. Just think of the opportunities you now have for growing vegetables. (P.S. You'll starve if you don't.)
I've no idea where this notion that the UK was ignoring the rest of the world because we were members of the EU has come from. My employer exports worldwide (USA, Asia, Europe). All that has happened is that exporting to the EU has become more expensive and a bigger administrative burden. That *really* helps - thanks Brexiters.
Any firm worth its salt is already exporting to wherever they can - life is hard!
5fthElefant In the European market. Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant.
I only went as far as 5th year higher economics but even I can see that Brexit is a “hanging upside down bat shit crazy” moment for our country.
And so it goers on. Honda shut down production in the UK for 4 days and all seafood exports from small outfits from scotland stopped for 4 days - both to sort out logistics issues.
Its a shame THM is no longer here. I'd love to hear his musings on this.
Brexit is about looking outward to the world.
Absolutely right. Given enough time and bending over and grabbing ankles, will be able to do nearly as much trade with countries such as India, as Germany currently does.
Honda shutting down next week is due to a shortage of semiconductors rather than Brexit. It's an issue impacting all vehicle manufacturers at the moment.
It’s both.
Chip supply is a very real problem, worldwide. Swindon has other supply chain issues as well right now (who doesn’t in the UK this winter).
I’ve no idea where this notion that the UK was ignoring the rest of the world because we were members of the EU has come from. My employer exports worldwide (USA, Asia, Europe). All that has happened is that exporting to the EU has become more expensive and a bigger administrative burden. That *really* helps – thanks Brexiters.
Its a deliberate lie. Used frequently throughout the referendum campaign, as far as I can tell because it’s an easy sound bit for people to repeat.
Its a deliberate lie. Used frequently throughout the referendum campaign, as far as I can tell because it’s an easy sound bit for people to repeat.
I know.
Which is why I query with anyone repeating it (such as 5thElephant) - and he's done exactly the same as everyone I ask, ignore the question.
Its a shame THM is no longer here. I’d love to hear his musings on this.
Really not worth it IMO.
Edit: TBF he did raise some vaid points but the amount of crap you had to get through to get to them was colossal.
Del - surely it would have been good for a laugh?
Not sure there's enough time in the world tj! 😀
I just can't believe there is anyone who still believes in Brexit or its supposed benefits. It has been an unmitigated failure.
When even it's most ardent cheerleaders can't come up with any positives except the nebulous concept of 'sovereignty'....
But if we go with 50,000 workers at £50,000 cost then we are looking at £2.5 billion per year just to provide the new border staff for leaving the EU.
Yes, investment that provides no economic benefit. This is why the EU reduces trade barriers (and trade deals all over the world reduce trade barriers) - because the required red tape is pointless.
Brexit is about looking outward to the world. Europe will become progressively less relevant.
So you're assuming that we can do trade deals with distant countries that will reduce trade overheads by more than the extra overheads caused by Brexit. What is your basis for this calculation? Are you suggesting that the integration with say, China or India will be as tight as that with the EU?
Why would Britain be able to get a better trade deal with India than the EU would? The EU has much greater bargaining power, does it not?
Great news. Some of those shelves look to be pretty low on choice though.
Some of those shelves look to be pretty low on choice though.
Mate, it's Lidl.
The idea that we should be celebrating part of the UK being able to get food from other parts of the UK as some sort of challenge completed is, frankly, offensive.
Disclaimer - born and brought up in NI. Family still there thoroughly unimpressed right now.
Mate, it’s Lidl.
Sorry, I’m an Aldi shopper.
We can look of course, but unfortunately the nature of trade is that people tend to trade with other people reasonably close by for most stuff.
Not sure how my house ended up crammed with chinese and japanese stuff then.
Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.
Not sure how my house ended up crammed with chinese and japanese stuff then.
Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.
Because food is just like consumer electronics.
But again, who will we develop frictionless trade with akin to the Customs Union and Single Market? All other countries will offer us is lower and/or fewer tariffs… which is far from the same thing… and is likely to be offered to the EU as well.
The idea that we should be celebrating part of the UK being able to get food from other parts of the UK as some sort of challenge completed is, frankly, offensive.
Disclaimer – born and brought up in NI. Family still there thoroughly unimpressed right now.
Jeffery Donaldson, has been on the radio a few times about this, he says it goes against the terms of the GFA. The GFA was to be upheld at all costs in the brexit negotiations. The DUP have backed themselves into a very tight corner, they are right to complain and yet at the same time can't. Unionism is going to have a very hard time coming back from this one.
Not sure how my house ended up crammed with chinese and japanese stuff then.
Because the disparity in labour prices between here and China is so great. That works well for consumer electronics. Less so for food.
Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.
How do you think that is going to work? Do you think it's a good idea to ship food from all over the world instead of just across the channel? Do you approve of Argentinian or US beef production standards? Do you want antibiotics in your beef?
Also, the trade barriers go both ways. We produced excess of food to sell to the EU, because they were nearby and they could afford to pay our prices. Are we going to sell to Africa or the USA now? Do you think the US farming lobby will open the doors to UK imports? Is our stuff even competitively priced there?
So many questions.
Do you approve of Argentinian or US beef production standards? Do you want antibiotics in your beef?
When people mention lowering food standards I always think of horse meat for some reason.
Is the issue (with US beef) actually with antibiotics in the beef, ie. insufficient withdrawal period before slaughter (leading to issues with human health) or with overuse leading to resistance?
The first would impact our consumption, the second will impact US production.