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This thread is an echo chamber of negativity.
I hope you are all enjoying it.
Classic projection? Is it difficult for you to imagine that someone can’t be
1. Enjoying this?
and/or
2. Motivated to comment by anything other than spite?
The best thing you could do here (as a believer?) would be to give hope and list the positives. Make the argument. Break the ‘echo’. So...?
On the manufacturing point, a huge proportion of the capital and seed funding for new manufacturing centres of excellence in the U.K. have been funded by the EU.
For example, the current centre under construction next to and in support of BAE Salmesbury is largely funded by the “European Regional Development Fund”. The EU targets this money at economically under performing regions such as NW England to improve output and outcomes.
I doubt very much that this investment will continue under U.K. government, setting manufacturing back further. Even more worrying is that if public investment is made, it’s likely to centre on well performing and low risk areas such as Cambridge and Oxford.
I’m sorry, did we not sell to those markets before now?
Every time when I've seen someone saying about these 'new' markets I've asked them to name the countries - not a single time as anyone come up with one.
Maybe because when I ask them, I also tell them that I'm interested as I've worked in many, many countries for UK companies and I'm curious whether I've worked there 🙂
Really not sure why you feel insulted by the suggestion that UK will be able to do some things outside the EU which it couldn’t before, it’s just a simple fact.
What things are they? Because if you can't name any then your "simple fact" can be dismissed with "no it isn't" without further discussion.
I suppose we could be invaded by Germany again. That's new in my lifetime, been a while.
As for rebuilding industry, the suggestion that it’s
notpossible is plainly ridiculous,
FTFY. If it were remotely possible then we'd have done it already.
If we don’t have enough engineers or scientists then let’s train them.
So if it's that simple, why weren't we doing that already?
"Let's" is a great word, isn't it. "Let's" do this, "let's" do that. We've seen this movie before though haven't we, anyone got a spare big red bus to hand?
In other news,
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/british-flights-spain-heathrow-barred-brexit-b657549.html
This thread is an echo chamber of negativity.
Only because the alternative viewpoint is presented in high quality contributions like this one.
In reality there is no reason to even discuss economic "benefits" or the far more likely negatives.
Yes, there'll be the odd individual/company that will find a niche and make a bit of money, the mega rich will, well, you know...
Let's face it, yes, I know most of us have... Brexit has got nothing to do with money for the vast majority that voted for it but everything to do with animosity towards foreigners, particularly if the skin colour doesn't suite.
That it, economics was nothing to do with it. I don't even think the economic lies were even needed to convince most Leavers. The "promise" to stop immigration was all that was needed.
Every time when I’ve seen someone saying about these ‘new’ markets I’ve asked them to name the countries – not a single time as anyone come up with one.
Oh, no, there's a grain of truth in this one.
We struck a deal with half a dozen African countries back under May's reich. Four of which we already had a deal with and all of which are developing nations.
(There may be holes in this post, it was a while back and I don't care sufficiently to check, but it's at least broadly accurate.)
Bugger, I forgot that I was actually trying to change my focus from poxy Brexit!
The utter lunacy just pulls me in every time.😕
This thread is an echo chamber of negativity.
I hope you are all enjoying it.
Classic projection? Is it difficult for you to imagine that someone can’t be
1. Enjoying this?
and/or
2. Motivated to comment by anything other than spite?
The best thing you could do here (as a believer?) would be to give hope and list the positives. Make the argument. Break the ‘echo’. So…?
I completely understand why you and others are unhappy about Brexit. Sometimes things don’t always go your way. There was a Referendum (remember?), and then we had two general elections, and guess what?
Please understand I mean no malice, or take no pleasure in your discomfort. I merely express a different point of view.
The negativity in this thread does a disservice to the British people and their time honoured resilience and resolve. Be positive, and look forward to a bright future.
You missed the relevant point in the post you quoted though, genuinely, tell us what you believe the positives to be?
You must have some as you are upbeat about Brexit. So you either just "feel" there are positives in an emotional manner or have actual opinions,facts, to back them up?
I'm totally genuine with no sarcasm here, I'd actually like to know what you think the positives are?
I just don't see belief and patriotism having much of an impact on national economics.
I am desperate to be proven wrong over my opinions on Brexit in truth!
Be positive, and look forward to a bright future
Specifics please - what are the things you'd like us to be positive about?
The negativity in this thread does a disservice to the British people and their time honoured resilience and resolve.
What about the millions of people who live here that aren’t British? The ones I know have more resilience and resolve than most people. And contribute more willing to our society than many. Positive people in the main.
I completely understand why you and others are unhappy about Brexit. Sometimes things don’t always go your way.
^ Totally failed to understand. Still projecting the ‘sore loser’ argument. Rinse, repeat.
Again, the best thing you could do here now would be to list the positives and outline what is now ‘brighter’ about the future of the UK?
(Preferably in our lifetimes and in the realms of our children’s medium-term prospects compared to how they were)
thatscold
Free MemberI completely understand why you and others are unhappy about Brexit. Sometimes things don’t always go your way.
[Morgan Freeman Voice] In fact, he didn't completely understand why I and others were unhappy about brexit
It Sunday night. I have work tomorrow so have to call it a day.
Enjoyed the banter.
Good night, sleep well.
so no answer then to what the positives are?
Be positive, and look forward to a bright future.
Blind optimism and British exceptionalism, that will sort it. Tally ho chaps! Empire 2.0 here we come!
So no specifics then, just banter and belief (hope??). I’d better warn my kids to work harder in these areas.
The positives are its a Sunday night.
Thats about all that is positive for Brexit this week.
Be positive, and look forward to a bright future.
I am.
I’m looking forward to rejoining the EU.
Might not get quite the favourable terms we had previously, but like you say, we can’t win them all.
Chin up now Brexies
At the risk of attracting some ire, one of the good things that has come out of the last 4 years is the significant demonstration of government support for UK firms aiming to work abroad. I spend probably 15-20 hours a month in meetings with, or organised by, the DIT.
And it is interesting to hear the viewpoint of global players on why they would choose to work with us, and not others, or why they wouldn't work with us.
One region is beginning to come on stream for me (by which I mean my firm), and the others are (admittedly starting from scratch) starting to show some interest. But these things take time. Hopefully that process won't take too long.
The rest is a bit of a mess though.
Fundamentally I blame The City - it's short termism and narrow viewpoint has driven British industries to a 2-3 year horizon whereas it's clear that businesses in other nations tend to look to a decade or longer. In the UK we haven't invested in staff or equipment, and visionary companies have sold out (or been sold out).
The next few years are going to bring a significant wake up call to many in this country - the tin pot Brexiteers (I know enough locally who hark back to the Blitz and some ridiculous Tales of Empire), the Remainers who can't see beyond the vote (I have been guilty of this), and the ordinary rank and file.
No one comes out of this well, and the UK as a whole particularly.
Be positive, and look forward to a bright future.
we’ll find out tomorrow. It’s going to be a restless night of anticipation.
aP that is very encouraging to hear that something is being done. It'd be nice though, in a democracy, if we were told about it though wouldn't it? So we could learn about and assess how well they are doing.
I've another challenge for the Brexiters: find me an article in the European press with an article about how bad this Brexit is for whichever country the article appeared in. You'll find plenty of praise for Michel Barnier, relief that there will be no significant import/export barriers and plenty about the shit that Brexit creates for UK business. Because if you look at the detail the crap is distinctly one-sided:
Only one country has lost its banking passport and will suffer further difficulties when temporary financial arragements agreed in September run out.
Only one country has masses of paperwork to transfer goods between between two parts of its own territory (NI and GB)
Only one country needs to provide proof of respecting norms to export
Only one country is out of Erasmus
Only one country is cut off from immediate access to security data and from cooperation organisations
Only one country risks sanctions if it makes changes to its labour laws, financial laws, food standards even if those changes would have been OK were it still a member state. As a member of the EU the UK could have "dumped" to eastern European levels, it is now committed to keeping up with France and Germany even though its prospects are no longer as good.
Only one group of people will have lost many of their rights in 27 countries, the rest of us have only had our rights curtailed in 1.
One major factor that Brexiters never reckoned with was a brilliant diplomat backed by brilliant team of advisors. Michel Barnier and his colleagues, ask any European what they think of him and you'll hear praise. We argue about all sorts of things on this side of the Channel, I have yet to hear a bad word for Michel Barnier.
Astons, Bentleys, and JCBs etc. Am I correct in thinking you could only sell them in the EU up until a few days ago? Sorry, I’m being a bit of a dick. We successfully sold them all over the world didn’t we? There weren’t any obstructions were there, to selling in the global market? Are we going to sell more now? Not just these examples, but all the other stuff we make?
Somebody remind me again, why?
Yep, i was being ironic and picking the high brand iconic products which strangely were able to be successfully sold around the world prior to the ‘new’ trade deals.
The answer to why: apparently you have to imagine it.
A question about the proposed Freeport’s. I’ve not seen a post deal update to know.
But what are the implications on the government’s Freeport proposals of the deal? Will they be as hamstrung as Tilbury and Liverpool’s previous efforts? Both of which occurred within the EU.
Sooo dazh how are you personally going to create jobs, capital and tax take? Now you have a brave new world?
He can spend his money in the UK
Possible positive for me?
N.Ireland is now in two markets, I expect local firms are already working out how to exploit this.
However disappointed and frustrated we are with the shit hand Brexit has left us with, there will come a time that we have to simply crack on and make the best of it that we can, business wise, individually and politically.
Things will be (a lot) worse than they were, and I look forward to telling Leavers it's their fault, but at the end of the day we need to find a way to keep our businesses afloat, food on our own tables, and move the country forward by protecting those most affected by the changes (additional social costs) and politically (holding people to account and raising political awareness to reverse these changes).
If we don't move our focus to finding the best/least worse way forward, these threads do become little more than Remoaner echo chambers, and will attract ignorant Empire 2.0 Brexiteers to gloat.
at the end of the day we need to find a way to keep our businesses afloat
People analysing what has changed, and will further change, are often those “getting on with” adapting to those changes. You can be sure those with their heads in the sand and imagining great but unidentified things are doing little to adapt.
If we don’t move our focus to finding the best/least worse way forward, these threads do become little more than Remoaner echo chambers, and will attract ignorant Empire 2.0 Brexiteers to gloat.
Medium to long term, the best way forward is closer links with the EU. That will take time to develop. But it is possible to take actions over a shorter timescale that will make closer relations with teh EU more difficult to achieve. There are those in the Conservative party no doubt working on ways to burn bridges. The challenge over the coming years will be to stop them achieving that.
One major factor that Brexiters never reckoned with was a brilliant diplomat backed by brilliant team of advisors. Michel Barnier and his colleagues,
Barnier and co are some of the few folk that come out of this with enhanced reputations
His patience in the face of huge provocation and his ability to run rings round the UK side were obvious. He did of course have the easier task as his position was based in fact and law not hopes and wishes.
tbh, given the hand they had and their (admittedly odd) objectives, the UK team achieved a bit more than I expected.
I think this will come to a cathartic end in a few years. Ireland becomes united, Scotland becomes independent and rejoins the EU. the rUK becomes a diminished and impoverished place and then sees the success NI and Scotland become and the disaster that Brexit is becomes so obvious. 5 years for this to happen
There will come a realisation that brexit is such folly. Unfortunately France will never let rUK rejoin. The tories will be heavily punished at the ballot box for what they have done
I think you underestimate the electorates ability to vote against its own interests TJ
Ive worked with too many minimum wage 50+ hr week people in the shires whom are lifelong Tory voters to view the Tory party getting any sustained punishment with any optimism.
Maybe but thats how I see it panning out. When Scotland and NI are booming in the EU and England is in perpetual recession out of it I think the penny will drop. also the loss of prestige having seen Scotland \and NI leave the UK will be very damaging
Boiling frog I think, it will take a long time for people to realise how shit things are, the cons have been screwing us for 10 years already and they are still popular.
I am no left winger but labour did more for the people in 13 years under Blair/Brown than Cons have done ever..
As long as there is media control we are perpetually screwed. The Cons could see how the EU was opening up fairness and transparency in everything (including taxes) and needed to get away from that.
Not to mention the inability of Labour to cooperate with potential allies such as Greens/LibDems etc. That was shameful last election and showed how utterly deluded the Corbynites are.
We are now ****ed, I cannot see a way back.
Achieved a bitmore than expected? Have you read the agreement?
The UK team assured the the EUs marketplace for goods and removed the UKs EU market for services.
The UK team lost
Freedom of Movement
Multiple UK exports beyond services
Adequacy on professional qualifications
Erasmus (educational ethnic cleansing)
The UK team failed to achieve
Data Protection adequacy
We have committed to regulatory alignment otherwise taffifs are put in place - think fixed penalty
Barnier realised very early that we would surrender all of the above to disconnect from the EU courts... from that moment on we were ****ed
Mr Barnier didn't even need to bring his A game. The EU 27 unanimously signed this hours after it was presented- because they already knew how good it was for them. The 27 dont care about FOM into the UK they have a declining population that needs to be propped by young immigrants.
The ERG appraisal of the deal indicates just how ideological their views are.
Not to mention the inability of Labour to cooperate with potential allies such as Greens/LibDems
just to correct that. while labour were not blameless it was the lib dems who refused point blank to work with Labour. Swinson carries a lot of the blame for where we are now
it was the lib dems and ex-tories who refused point blank to make Corbyn PM
The single Green MP should have been put forward as interim PM. And, once the election was go... some parties stood aside to give others a run at Tory seats... Labour refused to.
And so it begins. Sidi no longer shipping to the UK from their own online shop - so I have to rely on the right shoe, in my out-of-the-ordinary size, being available through UK importer/retail chain, which in the past it rarely has been ... along with any of the extra VAT/charges/tariffs etc.
Didn't take long to get Brexited.
How long before the Brexists realise what they've done, and what they've had done to them, I wonder.
Scotland becomes independent and rejoins the EU
I really think the independence campaigners need to think carefully about that - would an independent Scotland qualify and how long would it take? It always seems to be talked about as "leave the UK one day and rejoin the EU the next", and if the Brexit debacle proved one thing, it was that such things take time and don't go smoothly. What happens in the limbo in between?
I understand the Scottish desire to step away from rUK, though as an "Englishman" who believes that Brexit has proven how much more successful nations are together than apart, I dread what Scottish independence will do to rUK on top of Brexit
The real problems started when Henry VIII split from the Catholic Church 'cause he wanted a bit on the side.
Someone posted a link to an article on the Politico site - shows just how poor our negotiating team were.
Yea Brexit is not unprecedented in that regard
How long before the Brexists realise what they’ve done
One of the brexit voting justifications was sticking it to the middle classes
Stopping mountain bikers from buying expensive shoes (or leather saddles, or fancy brakes, or making their holidays more expensive) would qualify for that pretty well.
When Scotland and NI are booming in the EU and England is in perpetual recession out of it I think the penny will drop.
Can't ever see NI or Scotland "booming" in or out of EU, unless you are on about a celtic tiger type of boom built on shifting sands..
I really think the independence campaigners need to think carefully about that – would an independent Scotland qualify and how long would it take?
Yes and not long. ( so long as its done quickly) the EU will bend over backwards to have scotland back - not least because of the fishing. Scotland controls most of the UK fishing areas plus political rreasons - shove 2 fingers up to rUK
Can’t ever see NI or Scotland “booming” in or out of EU,
Booming in comparison to rUK - ie rUK citizens see iScotland and uIreleand citizens gaining wealth and access compared to rUK. Independent Scotland would be well placed to take much of the financial services from London
On a positive note we are going to increase exports in at least one key area without all those pesky euro nosey parkers
Well now.
Is football middle class these days?
https://twitter.com/chrisapplegate/status/1345798058483789830
Stopping mountain bikers from buying expensive shoes (or leather saddles, or fancy brakes, or making their holidays more expensive) would qualify for that pretty well.
Well at least in my case they’ve been managing to stop me doing that well enough for long enough then. In fact my Most Brexity Friend and I have been getting by on second hand MTBs (and cars) since 1997!
He is a bit angry about modern bikes being made by the ‘** ***’ as he calls them (Chinese, Taiwanese etc) tho, to be fair. And we’ve had a few back and forths about that. So while my used/donated/bartered bikes/shoes and bits are bought from necessity/domestic budget hierarchy from anywhere (including the skate shoes I got for £5 from the YMCA) - his adherence (OTOH) his old bike and bits is at least partly motivated by the fact that he believes his frame to be manufactured by white people in a Commonwealth Country (in his case a mid-90s Kona from Canada)
The extra downward boost from the last recession and subsequent austerity seems to have helped us in our decisions. Working on the assumption that what went before under Tory rule when we were part of the EU is what shall go again now that we have left, except moreso. So the new downward boost and double-recession bonus should see a massive decrease in my used bike-buying.
Maybe Nottingham-based Brexiteers could GoFundThem and buy Raleigh back from the foreigners, make a go of it? The anti-cycling element of Brexit might be conflicted but it doesn’t seem to stop them buying halal kebabs, so...
Or do a ‘Woolworths’? We have a local shop that used to be Woolworths before Woolworths was sold. They have now filled it with more cheap plastic tat and called it ‘Worthit’, using a Woolworths-ish font.
A good idea maybe start a GofundMe campaign to buy the old Raleigh factory then call it ‘Ratherleigh’ or something?
I think they’d be happier resurrecting British Leyland tbh? I’l run it by MMBFF we’re due to meet up later this week for a hike because his bike is knackered and I can’t ride anyway due to injury. MMBFF really, and I mean really ‘hates cyclists’ too. Unless they are offroad.
Yes and not long. ( so long as its done quickly) the EU will bend over backwards to have scotland back – not least because of the fishing. Scotland controls most of the UK fishing areas plus political rreasons – shove 2 fingers up to rUK
So Scotland will offer up it's fishing to get back in the EU, and the EU will accept that just to piss off the English.
I can see the second part being popular at the ballot box, but there's a separate thread for that conversation.
Scotland trades about £50 billion with rest of UK and about £16 billion with the EU - sounds awfully like brexit if they want to create a trade barrier with their biggest trading partner just to send a message to those pesky English 🙄
sounds awfully like brexit if they want to create a trade barrier with their biggest trading partner just to send a message to those pesky English
Good point, Goose, gander. Etc. I don't think that the English would support Scotland ‘doing a UKxit’, because it would then (in the Brexiteer’s minds) be ALL about the principle of creating trade barriers with biggest trading partners, whereas if English do it, then it’s about ‘loyalties’ and about ‘Being British’ and any kind of self-inflicted injury is worth it.
Remember that Nationalism/Sticking it to ‘The Left’/Immigrants/EU/Foreigners was first and foremost in the Big Brexit Game player’s mind, even though they shouted ‘take back (‘control’) it was of course more about ‘get rid of (‘the enemies’).
Now that Brexiteers got what they wanted and stuck it to all those scapegoats, if Scotland were likewise to ‘take back control’ then Scotland would just be another ‘Johnny Foreigner’ in the mind of the English Brexiteer. ‘Splitters! Traitors! Kilt-wearing Commies’ etc
They project. They always project. It’s the one strong commonality I’ve found in talking to MMBFF and with Brexiteers online.
Pretzel-brained? logically-inconsistent? cognitively-dissonant? All of the above.
the EU will bend over backwards to have scotland back – not least because of the fishing.
Pfft. They've already shown that they value their principles more than anything else, in this respect. So the question wouldn't be about fish, it'd be about how it looks. And it might make the EU look good to have people running back to it - but on the other hand, a lot of members don't want to encourage separatism. I can't see Spain welcoming iS.
If we don’t move our focus to finding the best/least worse way forward, these threads do become little more than Remoaner echo chambers
Hope you've got your tin hat on with talk like that.
i gave an example of what we're doing in our business.
where's yours?
^ A new thread is required?
‘A New Dawn’
For three generations, the English Knights brought peace and order
to their Empire, aided by their connection to the mystical en-
ergy field that became known as ‘The Dunkirk Spirit’. But they were befriended by invaders disguised as friends, and so the whole Empire has paid the price. It once again is time for the Age of the Empire.
Now Emperor Pulpatine, once hack-journalist and se-
cretly a follower of the dark side of The Spirit, has brought his own
peace and order to the Empire. Peace, through brutal recession—and
disorder, through increasing control of his subjects' lives.
But even as the Emperor tightens his iron grip, others have begun to
question his means and motives. And still others, whose lives were de-
stroyed by Pulpatine’s machinations, lay scattered about the Empire like
unexploded bombs, waiting to go off....
‘A New Dawn’ will chart a way to defuse those UXBs, and enter once again a Time Of Prosperity & Peace, and proper pastry-wrapped pork-products*
* Disclaimer: Sourced 100% unethically and unsustainably from US-style pork-producing mega-facilities, hidden away over low valleys somewhere in Somewhereshire 🇬🇧
I can’t see Spain welcoming iS.
Post brexit the spanish objection has gone as admitting iScotland would not set [precedent for anyone else
edit: @ P7
tres bien 🙂
So Scotland will offer up it’s fishing to get back in the EU
Nope - Scotland will rejoin the EU and take a full part. Most scottish caught fish is exported straight to the EU. Scotland does not have the capacity anyway to fish the deep waters
our nationalism is better than yours.
turning our back on our largest trading partner on our doorstep with whom we share a currency, language, and frictionless trade good, turning your back on your largest trading partner on your doorstep with whom you share frictionless trade bad.
doublethink.
Post brexit the spanish objection has gone as admitting iScotland would not set [precedent for anyone else
except maybe the precedent that in order to achieve independence you have to get the territory you're currently part of out of the EU?
wait!
it was the SNP all along!!! :0
If Scotland simply can't get the workers, sees its fishing industry diminished in UK negotiations with the EU and Norway, has its farming negatively impacted by UK decisions, has devolved powers taken back to Westminster... then an Independent Scotland will gain support North of the border.
Scotland trades about £50 billion with rest of UK and about £16 billion with the EU – sounds awfully like brexit if they want to create a trade barrier with their biggest trading partner
Of course nobody would be silly enough to impoverish themselves in the name of sovereignty and taking back control would they? I suggest there are going to be plenty of Scottish people who will do exactly that and then get very angry when rUK hand then the shitty end of the stick in negotiations for access to rUK markets, FoM, security and probably some sort of currency/credit arrangement. The key issue is probably the gap between exiting the UK and joining the EU. I'm guessing the EU will not be willing to begin talks until Scotland becomes an independent nation and that will mean an extended period of pain where rUK call the shots. None of this is insurmountable, but were I Scottish and dependent on the economy to feed and house my children I may not think the pain worth it - this is exactly the conclusion I came to on Brexit, sadly there were sufficient other UK voters for whom it was either worth it or who are not as dependent on the economy as I am.
Del - I am sorry that you don't understand scottish politics and the politics of Scotland being in the EU.
Its been explained often enough on here. that majority of the country want to be in the EU and independent of England - why? Because we are fed up of being dragged down by England
Went to my local uplands - Berkshire Ridgeway - this morning for a quick ride.
Instead of them being sunny I found them to a bleak and claggy mudfest that jammed up everything with no chance of progress.
Starting to feel we've been lied to.
when rUK hand then the shitty end of the stick in negotiations for access to rUK markets, FoM, security and probably some sort of currency/credit arrangement.
They might try that for sure. If they do they will be very suprised how it turns out. Play hardball on the £ ( part owned by scotland) and take all the debt! Play hardball on access and bingo - balance of payments issues so on for rUK
doublethink.
Every single argument for or against brexit can be equally applied to Scottish independence. I can see many good reasons why Scotland would benefit from being independent. That being the case..
Good news! Big Nige is looking out for our interests. Seems a bit focussed on pensioners for some reason...
https://flic.kr/p/2koZte4
https://flic.kr/p/2koV3iS
Would the Scots not be better aiming for regulatory alignment with the EU as opposed to Westminster rather than going for independence?
Not sure how far current legislation allows for this, could be as simple or as complicated as recognising EU standards but not the duplicate Westminster version - obviously just as much a false argument as Westminster duplicating them in the first place.
Of course that would mean border checks to ensure sub-standard goods don't enter Scotland but since BoJo has acceded to a de-facto border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK it shouldn't be a problem.
Full independence from Westminster is now essential. How hard that is depends on Westminster. There is a common travel area between the UK and Ireland - that could be duplicated. Westminster wants to play hardball then thats to its loss as well as ours
They might try that for sure. If they do they will be very suprised how it turns out. Play hardball on the £ ( part owned by scotland) and take all the debt! Play hardball on access and bingo – balance of payments issues so on for rUK
They need us more than we need them!
Honestly, I don't want to get into an argument about Scexit, stay or go as you please I care not, but please be realistic about the outcome - this is the lesson of Brexit.
TJ - i understand the sentiment behind independence for scotland very well. it seems you don't appreciate what a large factor it is. if it comes down to it i'll wish an independent scotland the very best of luck.
Bojo didn't seem too keen on a scots referendum yesterday, when pushed by Marr.
Del - sorry dude - you clearly do not if you equate scots and english nationalism. Its not about sentiment for a great many of us. Its about understanding that scotland could be a better richer country as independent.
Would the Scots not be better aiming for regulatory alignment with the EU as opposed to Westminster rather than going for independence?
How? The UK government has introduced new legislation specifically to prevent this. If they had allowed a NI style relationship for Scotland (much as the SNP proposed in a paper before UK:EU negotiations began) then that sensible approach may well have worked... the UK saying "we're doing all this OUR way", and refusing any carve out for Scotland, has given the independence movement a shot in the arm.
People analysing what has changed, and will further change, are often those “getting on with” adapting to those changes. You can be sure those with their heads in the sand and imagining great but unidentified things are doing little to adapt.
Exactly this....
How long before the Brexists realise what they’ve done
Won't happen.
It'll be the fault of the EU for punishing us.
It'll be the fault of remoaners for not getting behind it.
It'll be the fault of all the illegal immigrants forced on us by the EU who are all taking our jobs whilst getting a free house and a million pounds a minute in benefits share if you think this is a disc race.
It'll be the fault of all the secret non-brexies in Parliament sabotaging talks.
It'll be the fault of the middle classes looking down on us.
It'll be the fault of experts, what do they know?
It'll be the fault of the cyclists, they don't pay road tax.
It'll be the fault of the Muslims for, I don't even know any more, being brown and talking a bit funny?
But it will never, ever, EVER be their fault.
An innate inability to accept any sort of responsibility for everything that's wrong in their lives has been a key player since long before 2016. That's not going to change.
The key difference between Scottish Independence and Brexit is that Scotland has an achievable goal in mind.
Brexit was all about regaining sovereignty whilst simultaneously maintaining access to any market we liked without having to pay attention to what johnny foreigner has to say about it. It is a literal impossibility unless the UK decides to create Empire 2.0 by invading countries.
Scotland has the goal of becoming a small country with strong links to Europe. This accepts both the benefits and the limitations.
There are lots of details to be worked out and it is no way going to be a straight forward process but the good thing about having a realistic goal in mind is that it allows you to make the compromises you have to without crossing your own red lines every five minutes.
Brexit was sold as "everything" to "everyone", whilst in reality being everything for the few at the top who were in charge.
Brexit will be a success - just not the success they sold it as.