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I don’t understand
So maybe start listening to those who do?
Just because you or I do not understand something does not make it untrue. That's how religions get started.
Christ, that’s how brexit got started. Four years ago.
Surely that had as much to do with the GFA as anything?
Brexiteers spent 2 years telling us GFA was not a problem
Johnson specifically said no PM could ever sign up to customs checks
His own words....
https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1184527118773997571?s=19
The financial crash ended labour, why would it be any different for the current party?
The people you’re talking about here don’t even care about Brexit. They never did. They just hitched themselves to it as a means to deliver their agenda and enrich themselves.
They certainly don’t care about quaint old outdated notions like political parties or sovereign countries.
The people who’s interests are being exclusively served here are a stateless, globalised super-rich elite
Given the Brexit message, it would be hilariously ironic if it weren’t for the fact it’s going to do us all such enormous damage.
You’re right in one respect though...
they know full-well they’ll only ever get one crack at a scam on this scale. Hence there being no limit as to what they’ll stoop too to achieve it (Russian collusion anyone?). They know they’re finished politically once the true economic scorched earth of Brexit becomes reality.
They don’t care. They never had any interest in politics in the first place.
This isn’t a political ideology. This is a bank job!
Here. Stop typing and read this.
You can also read the blog of Dominic Cummings (our unelected, unsackable de facto PM) where he admits to most of these things.
So what I'm hearing here is that our government are acting on behalf of a malevolent global elite who will happily sink an entire country for their own gain? As opposed to maintaining the status quo which would lead to a more slight gain albeit a sustainable one?
Seriously?
Seriously?
Is it any more far-fetched than the "Lisbon Treaty 2020" and all the other bollocks that your lot have all swallowed up without question?
Do you look at Johnson, Cummings, Rees-Mogg, Gove et al and think "yep... these are a stand-up bunch of guys in tune with the populace who have our best interests at heart, whom I trust implicitly and whom I have no doubts will come through with all their promises at the end of the year"? Given their track record of honesty and string of roaring successes so far?
To coin a phrase: "seriously?"
Yes seriously doug. Thats the whole purpose of this.
BTW there is no such thing as a WTO "deal" its a set of rules and almost no country in the world operates totally under them - and Brexit HAS happened - we are out but in a transition.
So what I’m hearing here is that our government are acting on behalf of a malevolent global elite who will happily sink an entire country for their own gain?
There you go. We got there in the end.
Note that the architect of this project, despite being our de facto PM has no political allegiance at all. He’s not, and never has been, a member of the Tory party. He’s on the record saying how much he despises the party, and reserves particular venom for the Brexiteer ERG who despise him right back.
He’s assembled a team which consists of a front man, who believes in nothing but himself and a load of spineless non-entities, most of whom are as thick as mince, all unquestioningly doing as they’re told.
What’s happened in the last five years is essentially a coup. The overthrow of the Traditional political establishment. It’s just that most people haven’t realised it yet, including most of the idiots in parliament who are enabling it
They soon will.
It’ll be too late then though. Its already too late.
They’ve won. We’re just the mugs who are going to have to spend the next decades trying to undo the damage these wreckers are about to inflict on us
dougiedogg, why not look at the evidence, rather than relying on your pre conceived notions of what must be the case? The game has changed and past notions of integrity, however flawed, have gone completely out of the window.
People need to wise up to this, quickly.
almostno country in the world operates totally under them
FTFY. The only country to operate solely on WTO was the economic powerhouse of Mauritania and I'm pretty sure they got a deal with someone somewhere (probably the EU, ironically) a couple of years ago.
There's a reason for this. Can you work out what it is?
So, you think maintaining the status quo will lead to a small but sustainable gain?
Suggest you revisit that premise at Dec 31st.
Johnson isn't capable of original thought so he surrounds himself with a clown circus in whose company he appears competent.
Actually, that's worth stressing, because it's important.
Every single country on the planet has negotiated trade deals to improve on WTO. WTO is the worst way to trade, it's not a 'freedom,' it's a fallback when you've got nothing.
The sum total of our negotiating for the last four years has been to line up theoretical deals with half a dozen developing African nations, all bar two of which we already had an agreement with via the EU, and ****ing Lichtenstein. Australia have been negotiating with the EU for TWO YEARS and haven't reached an agreement yet.
We are, conservatively, doomed. And you wanted this. You voted for it. And you're sitting here right now defending it still. And for what? Blue bloody passports.
... and come this time next year, don't say you weren't warned. "Project fear," another great lie to dismiss the opposition and deflect proper scrutiny.
Are we learning yet?
I'm still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the UK or any country for that matter will willingly throw away the ability to easily trade with an affluent market of
515448 million consumers?
Fixed that for you.
so why would we suddenly be doing this?
Because, while it is damaging for the country as a whole, and for the majority of the population, it benefits a few, who see opportunity in it. Others still hope to benefit from the measures we will have to take as a country because of that damage.
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
Be honest with yourself, how much homework did you do regarding the likely UK-EU trade-barriers that would result from a ‘no deal’ exit? What answers did you get? Or didn't you ask? To again coin a phrase: Why would you suddenly be doing this now?
The point about echo chambers is correct though… this is a useful trading of understandings here now, even if minds aren’t changed. Thank you dougie.
Anyway, before the referendum, the (Conservative) government spelt out the options for future trade, and expected timescales to achieve them. All still true in the main:
The WTO rules option is in there, and explained clearly. The trade offs required for the other options are clear as well… and you’ll remember them long since being derided as ‘not real Brexit’, after the referendum, by people using that to gain power.
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
The EU didn't, we did.
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
You tell us, you voted for it. We've been told repeatedly and continually that "we knew what we voted for."
We're "suddenly doing this" because charlatans at the top and in the media duped half of the country.
Are you angry yet?
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
Because a bunch of thick ****s voted for it.
Oh, tw4ts is swear-filtered. Well, you get the idea. I didn't say cvnts at least.
Be nice.
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
There are 27 of them, there’s one of us. They’re a huge economic trading block. We’re not. They’ll take a minor hit for 6 months - as they know that at that point we’ll have no option, due to the economic carnage we’ve endured, to go crawling back To them literally begging for a deal.
At which point the EU will say ‘there you go... take it or ****ing leave it’. As will the Americans, the Chinese and everyone else.
You’re still labouring under this charming old illusion that the present government give a shit about any of this
They don’t
As some of us have been pointing out for years: these people are not on your side. They couldn’t give a toss about any of us.
A good rule of thumb to work on is that anyone who runs their entire campaign on nationalism, xenophobia and naked populism is only ever out for what’s in it for themselves.
They all actually hate the people of the nation they claim to champion and will happily use them and then discard them without a second thought
That's the core difference between the left and the right. Like, when you strip it right down to its fundamental essence.
The left are fighting to save what they love.
The right are fighting to destroy what they hate.
And that right there is the difference between Leave and Remain. Leave was fuelled by hate and anger from the outset. "Here's all the things that are wrong, and it's all their ➡ fault." Meanwhile the Remain argument was Mr Logic from Viz, "well actually, I think you'll find..." Didn't work then and isn't working now, we've learned nothing about propaganda in the intermediate four years.
Our little Dougie here has been relatively reasonable and rational compared to many, but when asked about his reasoning for wanting leave he immediately listed things he didn't like. Only when we prompted him directly did he think to come up with two positives (which were actually negatives anyway, but y'know).
And it rather begs the question, which of those two ideologies do you want to get in bed with?
The left are fighting to save what they love.
The right are fighting to destroy what they hate.
Don’t agree. I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love. I’ve met people of the left who are driven by hate to want to destroy.
And there many different reasons for backing the winning side in 2016, and to still think it’s a good idea. Most have been, and will be, quietly forgotten by the Vote Leave team now that Brexit is done, and they’re embedded in no10 for the next few years at least. The amazing thing is how many people still haven’t seen that yet, as it was obvious and inevitable to many of us. I was angry towards people who took the bait in 2016 for quite sometime… now the bait and switch is almost complete, I feel sorry for those who still harbour hope that they’ll get anything they were promised back then… they’ll be getting nothing positive out of this, just like the rest of us.
The left are fighting to save what they love.
The right are fighting to destroy what they hate.
Utter BS.
Don’t agree. I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love. I’ve met people of the left who are driven by hate to want to destroy.
+1.
Left or Right… and people of both persuasions took the bait… Brexit is a con job.
Utter BS.
It's hard to counter such a robust and comprehensive argument.
I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love.
Can you give an example of what you mean?
And there many different reasons for backing the winning side in 2016,
Yes there were.
and to still think it’s a good idea.
No there isn't. Or at least, yes, there are many reasons to think it's still a good idea, but none that hold any water beyond propaganda and rhetoric. Unless as Dougie suggested you believe that being able to opt out of humanitarian aid is a net positive. That's the same line of thinking that believes immigrants and asylum seekers are the same thing.
Price worth paying?
Don’t agree. I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love. I’ve met people of the left who are driven by hate to want to destroy.
there are plenty of Thoroughly decent (now-former) Tory people like Dominic Grieve and Michael Heseltine who are clearly appalled by what their Brexiteer party has become and clearly despise Johnson and Cummings for what they’ve done.
If you want to hear absolutely mental, there are two older blokes who drink in my local who are full on far left Corbyn/Bennites and listening to them talking about the EU you’d think you were talking to Nigel Farage. FFS, just look at Corbyn! Ambiguous, at best, about the most far right project this country has ever seen. He certainly happily enabled it.
This is a project initiated by the far right, but it’s been hijacked by people even more sinister than them. People like Cummings and Johnson who are essentially nihilists who have no greater goal than their own acquisition of more power and money. They’ve corralled the most unpleasant aspects of the Tory party, of which there are many, to deliver their result
Some campaign messages born out of fighting for what you love, yesterday.
And many, many, many more.
Hey, I don’t approve of anything the Vote Leave people used to win the referendum, and to push for a harder and harder Brexit (and install their people into no10) since… and Leave.EU were even worse, as your images remind us. And Brexit is and has always been a con. What was your point exactly Cougar?
My point is that none of those posters were about the great things we can do when we leave, they were about the bad things (allegedly) because we were in. Stoking fears, getting people riled up.
There were much, much worse which were sent out via targeted advertising that the vast majority of remain-leaning people never saw (so couldn't object to them). I've got a copy of a couple on one of the machines here but I'll have to hunt for them and get back to you.
And all people who either are ‘of the right’, or voted Leave (these are different things don’t forget) supported either or both of those two despicable campaign teams and their horrible negative messaging? The fact that there were people on the right fighting against them, and people of the left voting with them, suggests you are oversimplifying and generalising.
I’ve got a copy of a couple on one of the machines here but I’ll have to hunt for them and get back to you.
No need. I’ve seen many of them. Polar bears, bullfighting and the banning of cups of tea included.
They are mostly all here I think Cougar -
Along with the creepy use of a 'win £50 million pounds by completing a survey' ads which they used to harvest data for the targeting of the other ads (full of lies). Along with the hacked FB data which Vote Leave were judged to have broken the law in getting/using. Nothing to see here Remoaners!
you are oversimplifying and generalising.
Oh, you're quite right, I absolutely am and don't deny it. But it's very difficult to have these kinds of discussions without it devolving into "not all men" territory.
They are mostly all here I think Cougar
That sort of thing yes, but not what I was referring to specifically. (I hadn't seen a few of those before so thanks for that.)
And there many different reasons for backing the winning side in 2016,
Racism, hankering for days of empire and...........?
Yes I do reject this idea that brexit is necessarily a left/right issue, I would consider my self reasonably central on most issues. I once read on here "forget left/right, there is only up"
I voted leave in brexit because it was a simple question, "do you think we should leave?" That was as far as the question went.
I believe the ultimate goal of the EU is statehood (I may be wrong but that is my gut feeling and has been since I was young, I dont see any point in the EU otherwise). If the end goal is not to become further integrated what is it? If the EU is only a union why can we not leave on agreeable terms?
Why is everyone so adamant that there will not be a deal in the next 5 months?
I believe some sort of deal is very likely.
Johnsons red lines rules out a deal and it is clear that the negotiations are a sham
We could leave on agreeable terms if Johnson wanted a deal. What the UK side are insisting is they retain all they benefits without any of the obligations
TJ the negotiations were also a sham until it went to the wire last year, the same will happen this time.
On the subject of state aid, I really dont want to be in a club that has to bail out member states on a 10 year rolling period, this is what happens in the EU. There is a fundimental disparity between the economic output of the northern countries and the southern ones.
Helping truly disadvantaged people in Yemen/Syria/Bangladesh, I am fully for that.
Incorrect dougie
All that happened before was that Johnson went back to accept a position he had been offered earler and rejected. The EU did not move AT ALL
He sold it as a victory but it was a humiliating defeat
And the ERG, having campaigned for it, won the election on it and voted it through parliament, have now realised that it's a crap agreement and want to repudiate it.
There is a fundimental disparity between the economic output of the northern countries and the southern ones.
You're in Northern Ireland, yes? Have you not seen how inward investment from the rUK and the rEU has improved things there? And then the rest of us benefit later from our neighbour being better off?
TJ the negotiations were also a sham until it went to the wire last year, the same will happen this time.
Have you read about the differences between a trade deal and the withdrawal agreement, in terms of the process, the democratic ratification of them, and the implementation of them?
Dougie you just seem.to take as gospel everything the government says
Talks were not a sham until the last minute, that's another brexiteer myth
Johnson's deal is almost identical to May's deal, which only didn't pass BECAUSE HER OWN GOVERNMENT VOTED AGAINST IT !
Johnson's pivot was to concede on a customs border in the Irish sea (breaking his promises as pointed out earlier)
Only other changes were to move guarantees on workers rights, food, environment protection etc- as demanded by US trade negotiators
You can see changes he made here....
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/withdrawal-agreement-act
As for
If the EU is only a union why can we not leave on agreeable terms?
We can leave easily but it's only not 'agreeable' because we lose the benefits of membership & that shafts our manufacturing, farming, pharma, etc industries. And puts up barriers to half our exports
YOU voted for this if it's not agreeable to you, maybe you should have paid a bit more attention to 'project fear'
Why can I not leave my gym membership on agreeable terms? All I want is continued access to the facilities. Not asking too much surely?
So we’re back to… it you wanted us to leave the EU, what new arrangements did you want to be put in place dougie… or, if you considered that “someone else’s problem”, who are you trusting to form those arrangements and what have they done to win your trust in them doing so with your interests at heart?
Kimbers - Yes we have received the benefits of a club which we pay handsomely to be a part. A club with which we cannot now negotiate an agreeable relationship without facing financial ruin. Speaks volumes to me about the future direction of the EU as a federal state.
He moved the rights to the PD as I posted earlier, which he can be taken to task on.
I work in a Pharma company which exports to the US and EU markets, we already abide by all necessary regs for both markets, so what changes apart from having an office in an EU state? Which we already have.
Dougie wrote ‘it was a simple question, so I voted leave’
I admit to be losing interest in your ‘evidence’ at that point. Same with the ‘I’m alright Jack, I got my CT scans so don’t see a problem with privatisation of the NHS’
(I sincerely hope that you watched/will watch the docu video (About NHS) I posted as it’s usually worthwhile looking outside of our own bubble. Ironically, that’s why I asked you to provide me with some evidence that would help me see beyond mine.)
You may well be more the ‘gut-feeling’ type, as you state that was the reason you went with Leave (?)
Interesting, as (forgetting the L vs R sideshow/distraction) I deduced from the off that such was a key difference between voters going with Leave vs Remain.
Because the ‘remain’ campaign by it’s nature had to be evidence-driven. A very difficult task given the weight of data required not only to sell the remain argument but to counter the many myths and misunderstandings about the EU (most of which were planted into British ‘gut-feeling’ by decades of anti-EU tabloidism)
Meanwhile the ‘Leave’ campaign simply had to use the same tabloidism to appeal to ‘gut feelings’. Easy job.
Is that a fair assessment?
“do you think we should leave?” That was as far as the question went.
^ Speechless at this.
I work in a Pharma company which exports to the US and EU markets, we already abide by all necessary regs for both markets, so what changes apart from having an office in an EU state?
This is an easy one... we no longer set the EU regs.
A club with which we cannot now negotiate an agreeable relationship without facing financial ruin.
I thought that was project fear? The people now running the country promised us a better relationship with the EU, and others... didn't they? Did they suggest anything like "financial ruin"? I would suggest that the UK will recover economically, but please, be open eyed about the changes that will have to occur for that to happen, and what the average brit is going to lose. What is happening may have been enabled by your vote... but at some point you need to become aware that it isn't being done for your benefit... we are increasingly aware that is going to take a long time.
It’s hard to counter such a robust and comprehensive argument
Read again your post and think if they are the thoughts of a well-mannered adult. If you truly think that then you are part of the problem of the modern left, vilifying those who think different to you.
“Protect the things they love”, just because something makes you warm and fuzzy inside doesn’t mean you are right.
Again take a step back and rethink your post. There is more to the left and right than these heavily polarised 4-5 years.
you truly think that then you are part of the problem of the modern left, vilifying those who think different to you.
Agree. And the same goes for the ‘modern right’. Would anyone take bets on which side of centre are most commonly ‘vilifying others different than selves’?
‘L vs R’ is now at best a sideshow that went mainstream and has infected every area of social media to the point of global tabloidism
Its you guys on here that seem to be suggesting financial ruin. The great heist you were calling it?
The EU regs are very much in line with the MHRA which I dont see becoming any less stringent, because we along with the US very much had a part in writing those regs.
Malvern - that was the question that was put to the people? I've tried to explain my reasoning for my answer.
I see an attitude of lets see the problems and not the solutions in here. Which is why I originally made my echo chamber comment.
You folk still haven't explained why an ever expanding and more deeply integrated EU state is such a good idea?
What happens when we eventually have to give up control of our banking and currency?
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
Try asking Jenkyns dougie...
https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/status/1285835784701042689?s=21
Malvern – that was the question that was put to the people? I’ve tried to explain my reasoning for my answer.
I see an attitude of lets see the problems and not the solutions in here. Which is why I originally made my echo chamber comment.
Imagine being awake in surgery and hearing the surgeon speaking to the nurse
‘(Outstretched hand) Gigli saw’
‘Dr?’
‘Quick now, saw. Before the local wears off’
‘But Dougie’s notes say he’s here for ‘assessment’?’
‘Let’s see the solutions before we see the problems’
‘But Dr...’
‘All I’m hearing now is an echo. Have no patience with you’ (grabs saw, begins sawing on left arm). Site-mark right leg please...’
‘Dr?’
‘Solutions first’
So under that we trade on the same terms as the US?
An echo chamber is a place you go to hear your unchallenged views reflected back on you, which this thread does.
Analogies to surgery may sound good in your head but don't really serve the purpose of debate.
An echo chamber is a place you go to hear your unchallenged views reflected back on you, which this thread does.
Hang on.. you started this "echo chamber" line when we were posting links to the Telegraph and others suggesting that the UK was about to give up on a new deal with the EU (and the USA) and we were heading for a no deal Brexit... and you are arguing that we're not. Yes? You think it's just brinkmanship, and we'll get a new deal at the last minute? I hope you're right... but those of us who aren't exactly mad keen on Brexit, or Johnson, or the Telegraph, are not perpetuating an "echo chamber" by posting links to content published by the Telegraph featuring news and comment we'd rather not hear.
You folk still haven’t explained why an ever expanding and more deeply integrated EU state is such a good idea?
The past 40 years of unparalleled peace, prosperity, health and freedom seems pretty compelling to me.
Of course, as an EU member, we got to help set the parameters of that integration, and our participation in it.
From the outside, we are just going to watch helplessly and cope with the consequences.
Yes we have received the benefits of a club which we pay handsomely to be a part. A club with which we cannot now negotiate an agreeable relationship without facing financial ruin. Speaks volumes to me about the future direction of the EU as a federal state.
No it doesn't, it speaks volumes to the manner in which our economy has been restructured to take advantage of SM & CU membership
You can't blame the EU for our own economic decisions!
And if you work in Pharma you are surely aware that UK has been the driving force behind EU pharma law, the loss and of the EMA meaning any new drugs will have to be certified by the MHRA as well as to the EU adding an extra layer of red tape for drugs to be sold on the UK
We'll also be leaving the European Clinical Trials directive, so some of our participation in some of Europes (the world's) biggest trials are in jeopardy, the trials based in UK need a new legal sponsor in EU
We now have a completely unnecessary & costly layer of bureaucracy
And as we lose our influence at the EMA & in Brussels we will still have to align with all their rules (according to government current plan) just no longer get a say in writing them.
I'm sure Swiss & German etc pharma will be keen to make sure that future rules benefit them over UK firms.
And on top of all that you have the issue of supply chains & customs checks requiring millions to be spent on stockpiling.
What happens when we eventually have to give up control of our banking and currency?
When do we have to do that ?
Conspiracy theories are nice but try & keep it factual!
I seem to a rather rare breed these days, a Brexit agnostic. I came down on the side of remain after much thought but don't subscribe to the notion that anyone who voted the other way is an idiot and am also naturally wary of any forum or thread that seems heavily biased in one direction.
You can say that those who voted to leave didn't really understand what that meant, but the same is true for most of those who voted to remain. We may have been part of the club for 40 years, but very few of us really know how it works or where it is going.
On balance I do think that the benefits of membership outweigh the costs, but I also wonder how a union between countries as diverse as Germany and Bulgaria can work long term. A loose trading arrangement between nation states could work, but the EU moved well beyond that years ago. You could ague that New York and Iowa are just as diverse, but that's just making the case that the logical end point of the European project is some form of united states of Europe.
Calling the other side idiots doesn't get us anywhere. Yes the details are complicated, but the basic principles aren't. Are you happy with ever closer political and monetary union? If not (and you are prepared to take the consequences) then now is as good a time as any to get off the bus.
The hysteria about the NHS does make me laugh though. As if public vs private were a binary choice or the NHS should be preserved forever as it is now. There is already an internal market (in England at least). Services, such as dentists and opticians that used to be state funded are now private. Hospitals can (and do) already commission all sorts of services (from cleaning to diagnosis and treatment) from the private sector. If you want to limit private sector involvement in the NHS then you need to vote for a party that will do that. But that's got very little to do with Brexit.
I fear that in an ever increasingly integrated EU,
From the outside, we are just going to watch helplessly and cope with the consequences
the UK as a member becomes what you said while still paying for the pleasure.
The concensus here is that the UK gov. is capable of a deep conspiracy against the population, but of course the EU bloc is incapable of that as it is a shining utopia.
I see an attitude of lets see the problems and not the solutions in here.
We keep asking you what you would like to replace membership with... but you offer no solutions. I posted the options as the Conservative government saw them before the referendum. Have a read, tell us what direction you think we should be taking. Ask yourself why this Vote Leave government is taking the one it is, whether it looks anything like what it sold the public in 2016, and if it benefits you, your family, your employer, your country, the UK as a whole... and so on.
What happens when we eventually have to give up control of our banking and currency?
With a statement like that its pretty clear you are all being trolled
the UK as a member becomes what you said while still paying for the pleasure.
As a member we had MEPs voting & sitting on committees(just coz Farage rtc never bothered to turn up & represent ULd interests is not EUs fault.
We had commissioners, a seat (& veto) on European Council, we had judges on ECJ etc etc
And yes we paid about £9bn a year, but the costs of the new customs regs alone is £7bn a year!!!!
We're paying far more handsomely for the privilege of still having to follow almost all the regs without influencing them.
Calling the other side idiots doesn’t get us anywhere. Yes the details are complicated, but the basic principles aren’t. Are you happy with ever closer political and monetary union? If not (and you are prepared to take the consequences) then now is as good a time as any to get off the bus.
Yes. I agree that calling people ‘idiots’ doesn’t get anywhere. How about ‘hysterical’ instead?
The hysteria about the NHS does make me laugh though...
...If you want to limit private sector involvement in the NHS then you need to vote for a party that will do that. But that’s got very little to do with Brexit.
So you say. What evidence do you offer to counter concerns about MPs just voting against protecting the NHS from a post-Brexit trade deal? Are you happy with a Trade Bill that offers absolutely no protection for our NHS? Happy to risk of higher drug prices, private companies being able to sue the government if it tries to limit their ability to profit from our healthcare? Are you happy with opening up the door to the US getting their hands on it? If not (and you are prepared to take the consequences) then now is a pretty bad time as any pretend the writing wasn’t on the bus.
The concensus here is that the UK gov. is capable of a deep conspiracy against the population,
I don't think it's conspiracy, just unbridled hubris & incompetence (+ a natural reflex to lie their arses off, every time they screw up)
Are you happy with ever closer political and monetary union?
This is also a nonsense
We have a veto !
More to the point so do the populist leaders of Hungary, Poland, Italy etc etc
Exactly what closer union is on the horizon in the EU ?
I actually think closer union is no bad thing if done well, eg joining € only makes sense if ECB had greater powers.
Personally o couldn't care less who's face is on a coin
With a statement like that its pretty clear you are all being trolled
Don’t think it’s trolling or nonsense. The direction the eu so going is for more integration and a higher level of union. Hence a logical conclusion is that eventually we should adopt the euro. Otherwise we would be still half in half out. This at least stands from a 2016 perspective.
You can say that those who voted to leave didn’t really understand what that meant, but the same is true for most of those who voted to remain. We may have been part of the club for 40 years, but very few of us really know how it works or where it is going.
Which is why asking the question of the public was monumentally stupid in the first place.
As it was, it was only designed to bring the eurosceptics in the Tory party to heel a bit. The plan was: hold a referendum, remain wins, the ERG can be told to shut up and stop making so much bloody fuss and life carries on.
You may as well as the public about astrophysics! They'd already shown they couldn't even be trusted to name a boat properly.
As roverpig was getting at in his comment, I see the only eventual outcome of the EU being a federal state, That would mean a universal currency (euro), central bank and an armed force.
As I said re: "echo chamber", not every opposite opinion is a troll.
Otherwise we would be still half in half out.
Yes, we were exactly that. Half in, half out. And would have continued to be... the flexibility of a "satellite" state, but with a veto. Win, win. Not involved in closer union, but with all the freedoms and rights we helped form and put in place. A bespoke deal if you like. So... what are we going to be instead? Are we all now accepting that no deal (or close as dammit) is coming? And that looks nothing like what was proposed in 2016? Have you worked out what that is likely to mean for your industry? For your country?
Yes. I agree that calling people ‘idiots’ doesn’t get anywhere. How about ‘hysterical’ instead?
Fair point 🙂 Maybe hysteria isn't the right term. There does seem to be a tendency on both sides to try to polarise debate, which I don't think is healthy. I picked he NHS as an example from the remain side. Trying to claim that Brexit is an existential threat to our NHS when we've watched the creeping privatisation for years (during EU membership) doesn't make sense to me. But there are plenty of examples from both sides.
We have a veto !
More to the point so do the populist leaders of Hungary, Poland, Italy etc etc
Exactly what closer union is on the horizon in the EU ?
This is kind of my point. The remain side are quick to point out that leavers didn't fully think through the implications and I dare say that is true. But I don't think remainers have fully thought it through either. We haven't had an open debate about the ultimate goals of the European project. I've not heard anybody argue that the current situation is ideal (or even sustainable). Most people want it to evolve in one direction or another, but few people can tell you where it should end up. @kimbers you are honest. A currency union with a more powerful ECB would be a logical step. But you must be able to understand why lots of people would be nervous about being in a currency union with all the members of the EU.
As a member we had MEPs voting & sitting on committees(just coz Farage rtc never bothered to turn up & represent ULd interests is not EUs fault.
We had commissioners, a seat (& veto) on European Council, we had judges on ECJ etc etc
While having 3 parallel levels of government doing the same things.
Another reason I voted for brexit was that our government was seen as taking EU directive on domestic issues and whether true or not, 4 levels of government (council<local,westminster<EU) seems like a very wasteful higherarchy.
But you must be able to understand why lots of people would be nervous about being in a currency union with all the members of the EU.
The Euro will never have all the members of the EU in it... and there wasn't even the sniff of a chance in 2016 that the UK would be joining it while any of us were still alive. A huge red herring.
whether true or not
Indeed.
If the EU is only a union why can we not leave on agreeable terms?
Ah, the old "I don't understand why we can't just leave" argument. The previous brexit thread ran to over 2000 pages and this is what I like to call a "page 2 argument." Its partner in crime is "we were alright before we joined" (spoiler: we weren't).
We have spent the last 40-odd years offloading administration onto the EU so that we don't have to bother with it any more. This makes sense; if you're a supermarket chain with 28 stores it would be madness to have 28 finance departments, 28 HR departments, 28 purchasing departments. You centralise it.
All the old trade agreements we used to have with other countries have long since expired, replaced with ones negotiated through the EU because - shock horror - they're better. Who'd have thought that a conglomerate of 28 countries carried more negotiating power than a rainy little island with an over-inflated sense of self-importance.
And it's not just about trade. There are many things that we are able to do because of our EU membership. We can fly planes over other countries because of a thing called the Open Skies agreement, which we're signed up to via the EU. No Open Skies agreement, you're walking to France.
When we leave we lose all this. And contrary to populist belief we don't go back to how we were before, we come away with nothing. Aside from an exciting new trade deal with Mozambique. All these treaties will have to be renegotiated. And that will take decades.
Now, I'm not for a moment suggesting that come next year all our planes will be grounded, even we couldn't be that stupid. But unless some sort of agreement is reached then that's the default outcome, your "status quo" if you like.
This is why "no deal" is a fallacy; it's not "a deal," it's many many many agreements in many many different areas. Anyone saying they want "no deal" is telling you they don't want planes to fly, otherwise what they're actually saying is "no deal apart from the bits we want a deal on, obviously."
A club with which we cannot now negotiate an agreeable relationship without facing financial ruin. Speaks volumes to me about the future direction of the EU as a federal state.
You're still not getting it. This isn't something the EU has done to us, we are where we are today by choice because up until the last decade or so adults were in charge. We are tightly integrated (for mutual benefit) and you cannot just blindly sever that integration without consequences.
It's like needing an operation, being told that you'll have to wait for availability of beds, surgeons, nurses, anaesthesiologists, and you're standing in the GP's office with a rusty Stanley knife screaming "I don't understand why you can't just cut it out!"
You folk still haven’t explained why an ever expanding and more deeply integrated EU state is such a good idea?
How many European wars have you seen recently?
What happens when we eventually have to give up control of our banking and currency?
What happens when the aliens land and turn us all into gremlins?
Aside from the fact that this is just a slippery slope fallacy, as a member state we had the power to say no and veto things we didn't like. Remember back when we joined the Euro? Me neither. All this "laws coming from Brussels" horseshit is manipulative propaganda, it conveniently ignores that we were 1/10th of the EU and we were instrumental in making those laws.
Of course, now you and your ilk have dragged us out that's no longer the case and the EU27 is free to do what the hell it wants without out interference stopping it. I don't know about you but I find that a much scarier proposition. I thought leavers were convinced the EU was planning a huge army? If they are (spoiler: they aren't) then they're right on our doorstep and we can't do anything to stop them now can we. You've thought about this, haven't you lads.
You are being lied to.
Yes. I agree that calling people ‘idiots’ doesn’t get anywhere.
I struggle with this. I can not help but see a correlation between brexiteers and simple-minded bigots. Hilary Clinton famously referred to Trump supporters as deplorables and that was quite damaging to her. I see why she said it about the Trump base and I see the same with leavers. That view might be damaging for a politician but i'm not running for office and this is an anonymous on-line forum. The truth is that I think leavers are thick and i'm sure i'm not alone. Its just something that brexiteers will have to get used to - especially when it descends into a giant shit show over the next 12 months.
