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It's also worth noting that both ukip & Refuk & reclaim are even harder brexit parties and disgruntled Tories did not flock to them to protest
Rules just don't apply
https://twitter.com/domjoly/status/1471832008296968200?t=JU7Cr7_KYGHoGiAhY_Qc_w&s=19
To be fair, they still serve food and drink on trains, so...
I'm more interested in the fact that even The Spectator has had enough of him.
Haha. I didn’t dare take my mask off this time last week on the Sheffield to Manchester train. Admittedly there was no food service but considering that we were crammed in like sardines and many people on the platform couldn’t get on I don’t expect a trolley service. But that was just a train between 2 northern cities serving a population of several million so why would I expect to get a seat eh?
And yes it is interesting that the spectator is going for him. Didn’t something bad happen to someone related to one of it’s editors or something recently?🙄 something to do with a party? I can’t quite remember?🤔
Ah yes, of course. That's the beauty of an incestuous circlejerk between a small number of politicians and influential journalists.
Allegra Stratton, who resigned after being caught on video at said party, and cried a lot on her doorstep, is married to James Forsyth , editor of the Spectator. So he will likely be impressed with his wife being thrown to the wolves when expedient.
Lets hope nothing nasty happens like Russia invading Ukraine. At least Gavin Williamson still isn't defence minister. Britain really has sunk to banana republic government level, and you should remember that's what people voted for
Allegra Stratton, who resigned after being caught on video at said party, and cried a lot on her doorstep, is married to James Forsyth , editor of the Spectator. So he will likely be impressed with his wife being thrown to the wolves when expedient
...and Rishi Sunak was best man at their wedding. Whose name is among those mentioned as a Boris successor.
Forsyth is political editor not the full editor.
Cummings also still has ties to the spectator via his wife who is deputy editor.
Its all rather incestous and yet they still whine on and one about the metropolitian elites.
There can't be many people left who like him.
Just for the record I never did. I think I even thought he was a **** on HIGNFY (where it all began??? 😬)
There can’t be many people left who like him.
On another forum I occasionally look at to try and get a more right wing view of things his supporters do seem somewhat busy with other things currently than speaking in his defence. Even the "best of a bad bunch" seems to be disappearing as a when all else fails reply.
Daz – it was responding on the “boring” subject only. The idea you need to be a gobby personality to stand up to people.
When I say we don't need boring politicians, I'm not talking about having gobby celebrities or rabble rousers, I mean we need politicians who have the courage of their convictions who are prepared to speak for normal people and defend their interests, rather than the meek and cowardly politicians who seem to spend their entire careers trying to lower people's expectations rather than raising them.
They don't have to be loud, gobby, or whatever else, they just have to be prepared to listen to the people, be open to new ideas, and say no to the civil servants, businessmen, billionaires, media barons and others who tell them that tackling climate change, poverty, inequality, injustice and social decay isn't possible or affordable. It is possible, it is affordable, and it is acceptable to the vast majority of normal people who will benefit from it, but currently there are very few politicians willing to stick their heads above the parapet to say these things.
Why? The LibDem position is that we should rejoin the EU
Because by-elections, when the government has a huge majority, provide people with the opportunity to protest.
Voting LibDem does not send a clear message that brexit was a huge mistake, whatever the LibDem policy on the matter is, voting Rejoin EU indisputably does.
If brexit was an important issue in North Shropshire it is fair imo to assume that Rejoin EU would have managed more than 58 votes.
Besides, if you are going to use the argument that all the anti-brexit vote went to the LibDems then it simply suggests that the majority of the voters in North Shropshire backed brexit.
If brexit was an important issue in North Shropshire it is fair imo to assume that Rejoin EU would have managed more than 58 votes.
Not really. I doubt I would vote for a party like that in a seat which looked like it might be competitive unless they had some really compelling other ideas and plans whilst we are waiting and even then it would be a hard sell to avoid wasting my vote.
I would agree it says sod all about brexit though since its a byelection and hence people can take safe(ish) gambles.
Really Ernie - your contortions to justify a pro bexit [ositi9o get more and more tenuous. Its obvious the majority of the UK now understand its a stupid idea and would vote against and the lib dem vote shows this
I think I even thought he was a **** on HIGNFY (where it all began??? 😬)
20 years ago he was an MP for Henley when I lived nearby. He'd regularly pop up on the local news. He was a tool back then and easy to dislike, but more in a "look at this buffoon, how on earth is he an MP" kind of way.
Voting LibDem does not send a clear message that brexit was a huge mistake, whatever the LibDem policy on the matter is, voting Rejoin EU indisputably does.
I think most, if not all remainers understand that rejoining the EU now we are 'out-out' (as Micky flannigan would say) is not a simple matter of buttering up some EU diplomats over a round of golf and a nice meal, That ship has well and truly sailed, it would be a long term endevour, of re-re-alligning ourselves with EU standards.
Therefore voting for a single issue remain party or independent is indeed a wasted vote.
LD's have the only pragmatic apporach to rejoining that I've seen. If they could say tehy would rejoin tomorrow they would, but it's not possible.
Source: https://www.libdems.org.uk
As party members will hopefully will be aware, we are currently consulting all members about the future direction of our policy on Europe (an email was sent to all members last week). Conference has made the decision for us to support a long-term aim of being a member of the EU again, and a policy group chaired by Duncan Brack is developing proposals on a rolling basis in support of this. Conference this autumn approved plans for immediately improving cultural and educational ties, and the group is currently working on plans for our future trading relationship, to bring to Conference next year. Please do contribute to the consultation.
No, but voting LibDem is a more effective way of giving the government a kick up the backside, as well as indicating that Brexit is no longer a get out of jail card.
I doubt many people really expect to rejoin the EU soon. But they might want to indicate that they're not happy with the current state of affairs, including picking fights with the EU whenever anything tricky happens domestically
Voting LibDem does not send a clear message that brexit was a huge mistake, whatever the LibDem policy on the matter is, voting Rejoin EU indisputably does.
Magical thinking. A vote for a made up party is a wasted vote. The labour vote went down dramatically cos of tactical voting.
Mind you, need some pro level mental gymnastics to think brexit benefits exist at all, let alone outweigh the considerable downsides.
Really Ernie – your contortions to justify a pro bexit
I haven't said anything to "justify" a pro-brexit position. Read my post again TJ :
Because by-elections, when the government has a huge majority, provide people with the opportunity to protest.
Voting LibDem does not send a clear message that brexit was a huge mistake, whatever the LibDem policy on the matter is, voting Rejoin EU indisputably does.
If brexit was an important issue in North Shropshire it is fair imo to assume that Rejoin EU would have managed more than 58 votes.
Besides, if you are going to use the argument that all the anti-brexit vote went to the LibDems then it simply suggests that the majority of the voters in North Shropshire backed brexit.
I am clearly saying that brexit doesn't appear to have been an important issue in the by-election. I am being told that it was and that everyone, bar 58 individuals, voted tactically correct.
Which I think is a fairly unconvincing argument, unless you really want to believe it. The electorate simply aren't so disciplined that only a few dozen would vote incorrectly.
I am sure that Rejoin UK have reasons to believe that it is important for them to exist even if you don't agree with them. Which immediately suggests a lack of discipline among EU supporters.
And I have absolutely zero interest in "justifying" my opposition to the EU on stw TJ. The referendum was over 5 years ago, if I wanted to endlessly debate the subject l would do that on the brexit thread.
Its obvious the majority of the UK now understand its a stupid idea and would vote against
It must be reassuring for you believe that TJ. After the next general election when a pro-eu government is elected we can have a debate about the issue.
Ernie - its well known and proven in multiple polls. We have cowards for politicians tho and there will not be a pro EU major party in England
I am afraid your pro brexit position really blinds you here.
I don't really care any more what happens in England tho - they can go and be an irrelevant pariah state. Scotland will be rejoining the EU
Oh - and I have a pro rejoin government = one with a popularity no English party can get close to.
The labour vote went down dramatically cos of tactical voting.
Speaking of cowards, the labour party was so scared of losing votes over brexit that they refused to take a stance, or they were so divided internally with in-fighting on the matter they were too frozen to decide what thier policy on the mater was... One way or the other, that is what ultimatley cost them votes.
I am sure that Rejoin UK have reasons to believe that it is important for them to exist even if you don’t agree with them. Which immediately suggests a lack of discipline among EU supporters.
Interesting opinion.
You say "rejoin UK have reasons to believe that it is important for them to exist".
I'm sure they do, anyone can campaign on any issue or issues they want to.
How you've managed to translate that into "a lack of discipline among EU supporters" is a mystery though, the LD landslide would suggest the polar opposite, hahah!
Just to add, I checked thier website out of idle curiosity, https://rejoin.london/ - they are a one issue party with no policy other than to rejoin the EU, thats not really how most intelligent people vote.
Ernie – its well known and proven in multiple polls. We have cowards for politicians tho and there will not be a pro EU major party in England
I had to Google "cowards" in case it could be used in a context which I was unfamiliar with.
So they are contemptibly lacking in the courage to support a position which the majority of the population supports, what are they scared of? Why in contrast are the LibDems so brave? And why won't people vote for these brave politicians that agree with them?
hahah!
Knockout blow! 🙂
Why in contrast are the LibDems so brave?
Because they had, and have a clear policy on the matter, and would/will happily reitterate said policy to anyone who would listen.
Who knows what Labours stance on rejoining is, I don't really know what thier policy on anything is really, other than "tory bad, lib dem bad, vote us in".
How on earth is he going to get more restrictions past his loony brexiter backbenchers?
https://twitter.com/BrexitBin/status/1472206066037530629?t=RMCQVbCQWkmqCW2ZsCmX5g&s=19
Labour are cowards afraid to lead and afraid of the right wing media. Starmer should be shouting from the rooftops about the disaster5 that brexit is
Because they had, and have a clear policy on the matter,
they really have not and Swinson grandstading cost the chance to block brexit
Oh – and I have a pro rejoin government = one with a popularity no English party can get close to.
Lucky bugger
they really have not and Swinson grandstading cost the chance to block brexit
Swinson didn't help matters in some respects, she came across as gobby and condescending but labour repeatedly refused to cooperate with the LDs on marginals, as they just won't get off the damn fence and belive they should be in power no matter what. Almost like labour are tories in that repect.
..and then look what happened, the red wall turned into the blue wall.
Yet another delicious blow to Bozza…..
Frosty what a horrible piece of unelected work, good riddance.
Oh now that is such a shame. Can we not make him ambassador to some god forsaken hole in the ground so the arsehole never comes back
Taking the opportunity to walk away from a disaster that he was pivotal in creating? Surely if he was so passionate about the project he'd want to see it through? Nah mate.
As reported by the Mail?
I'll wait for some verification but - if true, the unravelling continues.
Can't be long before johnson starts quoting Kenneth Williams yet...infamy, infamy; they've all got in for me.
Interesting about Frost. He knows how stupid brexit is but has been doing his masters bidding to deliberately inflame things. However a day or two ago signaled a major U turn on the renegotiation that was never going to happen. I suspect it might be do do with this. Either he is fed up of taking Johnsons flak or he is refusing to bash his head against the wall any more
Saw an open door and ran like ****
Doubt its more complicated than that.
Saw an open door and ran like ****
Yeah, had to find an excuse to launch himself off the sinking ship.
Shame it wasn't a real submarine and he escaped through the torpedo tube
Starmer should be shouting from the rooftops about the disaster5 that brexit is
Totally disagree. Keeping his mouth shut on brexit, and in particular his own tragic role in it, is one of the few things Starmer has got right.
Either he is fed up of taking Johnsons flak or he is refusing to bash his head against the wall any more
Or another possibility.... he sees Johnson currently weak and a good time to pile pressure on him. According to the link :
"Frost's resignation had been prompted by the introduction of additional COVID-19 measures, including COVID passes, a broader discontent with tax rises and the cost of 'net zero' environmental policies."
I can't see a reason to doubt the accuracy of that claim.
Now is a good time for pandemic and climate change deniers who want low taxes to strike at Johnson.
That smacks to me of an excuse.
You don't think he really is bothered about additional covid restrictions, higher taxes, and net zero?
They are certainly issues which bother a lot of Tory MPs on the Thatcherite right of the party.
You don’t think he really is bothered about additional covid restrictions, higher taxes, and net zero?
His job is to deliver brexshit. Tax and climate change are not his brief. If he is so filled with tory zeal, why not release a statement?
Tax and climate change are not his brief.
Someone needs to tell him that. All the major news providers are reporting that he has resigned due to opposition to covid restrictions, tax and spending, and net zero.
And he has certainly been playing a long game in getting his excuses in - 6 months ago :
I'm agreeing with Ernie now - I'm thinking he's a disillusioned right wing nutter abandoing the ship so they can get on with the race to the bottom they really want.
Whether or not he is quitting primarily for the reported reasons, the timing is the only thing that matters. He feels that Johnson is a dead man walking, and needs to try to get as far away from the stink as possible in order to retain some influence.
Obviously he's not going to list Brexit as another of those reasons, why should he? But it should also be noted that the next tranche of unwelcome customs changes are incoming in a couple of weeks, unless there is another humiliating grovel to Brussels for a further grace period - by him.
According to the FT there is also this :
It is understood Johnson is no longer seeking the immediate axing of the European Court of Justice from its role in enforcing the so-called Northern Ireland protocol. Such a move would undermine the negotiating position of Frost, who has been a vocal critic of the ECJ.
Johnson is going a bit soft.
I’m agreeing with Ernie now – I’m thinking he’s a disillusioned right wing nutter abandoning the ship so they can get on with the race to the bottom they really want.
Maybe he'll pop up on GB News...
It does annoy me though when people can leave a job they've spent the last few years totally ****ing up and fall upwards to do the same elsewhere. Mind you, the EU thought he was a clueless pillock so maybe negotiations about some sort of "associate membership" of CU and SM might get somewhere now.
Johnson is going a bit soft.
It's the pragmatism that kills you in the end.
I thought Frost's entire 'negotiating position' was to claim a big boy signed the NI Protocol and then ran away?
Thats where I think the true position lies - Frost knows the belligerence on brexit will not work and reported that back and was told " no surrender" so quit
The ECJ has to remain the arbitrator - thats a legal necessity for the EU
Frost knows the belligerence on brexit will not work and reported that back and was told ” no surrender” so quit
So you disagree with the FT and think it's Frost that has gone soft on the ECJ?
The minute Johnson conceded on fishing rights & now the ECJ frosts leverage evaporated
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1472307367110971398?t=-bBrem9cUkjMnMsovi339A&s=19
I wonder if he'll give his peerage back? He's abandoned his post at a time of crisis.
I can't imagine that this hasn't also something to do with it
So you disagree with the FT and think it’s Frost that has gone soft on the ECJ?
I do wonder just how many people within the Tory Party know that it's a total utter disaster, it's far bigger than they ever imagined and they've not even begun to grasp the full implications of it but obviously can't admit that.
There's only so long the "it's the evil EU to blame" line will work and it also carries the minor downside that we still need to work with the evil EU to see it all through so there's a limit to how much you can tell that lie. Not that that's ever really stopped Johnson in the past...
Anyway, Frost doesn't have a lot to negotiate any more, the UK has taken back control by err... ceding most of its control.
So you disagree with the FT and think it’s Frost that has gone soft on the ECJ?
I think Frost is intelligent enough to know the game is up and to understand that the EU cannot concede of the ECJ - it would mean rewriting basic EU law. frost was also originally a remainer and understands enough about the EU to know this demand cannot be met
My view is he is bailing because he knows its only going to end in further embarrassment and he has had enough of trying to do the impossible
I think Frost is intelligent enough to know the game is up and to understand that the EU cannot concede of the ECJ – it would mean rewriting basic EU law.
So why is the FT suggesting the opposite to their readers?
https://www.ft.com/content/041f952a-93c9-4a8e-9d53-6f50ddc1e45f
Johnson is a paternalistic Tory and he's being surrounded by the right wing libertarians who despise state intervention.
That's my 2p worth.
I have no idea Ernie - nor can I read that link!
I think Frost has been looking for an excuse to quit for a while.
I wonder what titan will now replace Frost That Lost?
Doesn't really matter to a large degree as since America made it clear that triggering article 16 would be a very naughty thing to do, they will have the negotiating power of a gnat.
nor can I read that link!
You need to figure out how, they do it so that if you are really crafty you can read without paying. There's more ways than one and if you persist you can read most articles.
https://twitter.com/FT/status/1472314416221900801
Readable link from Twitter
Brexit minister Lord David Frost has quit the UK government in the latest blow to Boris Johnson’s authority. The cabinet minister’s departure from government during such an intense period of negotiations with Brussels is likely to increase Eurosceptic fears that Johnson is capitulating on post-Brexit trade arrangements in Northern Ireland. It is understood Johnson is no longer seeking the immediate axing of the European Court of Justice from its role in enforcing the so-called Northern Ireland protocol. Such a move would undermine the negotiating position of Frost, who has been a vocal critic of the ECJ.
Bet Frosty won't be resigning from his seat in the House of Lords though will he?
Remainer becomes an arch-Brexiter in exchange for a seat in the Lords, repudiates the “amazing deal” he negotiated, then makes the ECJ a red line in NI only to abandon it…
And then claims that he's resigning on principles and because his negotiating position is compromised?! Funny cos I thought we held all the cards at the negotiating table...
Honestly, these people are so far beyond satire now.
I think Frost has been looking for an excuse to quit for a while.
Frost is a grade a brexit fruitcake.
He isnt some innocent civil servant trying to desperately improvise a parachute after being thrown out of the plane.
He is one of the idiots who set fire to the parachute and lobbed it out of the plane before jumping out headlong after it.
Frost was a committed remainer and pro european before he took this role on
Spent the day at my brexity parents, was shocked to see how much even my Boris idolising sister in law has turned against bozo, obviously now she's saying she'll ignore any lockdown rules he enforces
I wonder what titan will now replace Frost That Lost?
Give Liz Truss a go. That would be entertaining.
Liz would be like the sequel...
Hangover 2...
More tapes incoming…
Christ, can they get more dysfunctional?
It's ok, that a rhetorical question.
'Clean Global Brexit' - at least that confirms the suspicion that leaving the planet is the aim here.
I don't quite understand why david frost is a thing, he was just a sacrificial pawn at best.
Give Liz Truss a go. That would be entertaining.
if I was a disinterested bystander where it would have absolutely no impact on me hell yes.
Unfortunately not so much in this case.
I do like comedy when I can listen or even, in times long ago, attend a gig. I am not a great fan when I wake up and its still happening.
Lol they're imploding.
The Brexit brigade just want to watch the world burn for the reasons elaborated by Marcus Fysh on their private chat.
More tapes incoming…
Staffers taped taking the piss out of the PM's sexual history? Whatever next...?