Forum menu
This is the best description of this forum that I’ve yet seen.
Oh I'm not denying actually using some of this. 🙂
Any argument can be subverted if you so wish. The usual end is that the existence of god ends up being debated. Or a punch up.
But that's for the pub. Pub debates don't actually knock 5% off of GDP and put people into poverty so a chosen few can buy vast country estates etc.
Had a brief chat with an old boy yesterday whilst out riding. I was reading the bumf around a bridleway closure so that a load of boxy newbuild tat can be thrown up.
Him: "Their building more ****in ahses".
Me: "Don't vote Tory".
Him (looking a bit put out): "They're all as bad as each other".
Me: "I don't think they are, plus it looks like you can't do any worse".
His MP is Andrew Bridgen.
You gotta laugh sometimes.
With his short leg he's often let his fly slip but he gets extra cover from lots of spinners. Out!
If you do some reading up on WG Grace he is actually quite similar to Johnson in many ways.
But Grace did actually do some things that stood the test of time and are still considered 'great' by any measure.
Johnson has not. And will not. He's a fraud from the tips of his toes to the ends of his carefully 'ruffled' hair.
And he's Prime Minister of the UK.
Go figure.
I heard the JRM rubbish comparing it to a DRS decision . My wife piped up “So he’s out then??” JRM has just perfectly explained why he should resign!!
Quite a record Johnson is getting:
Lost the support of parliament.
Lost tge support ofcthe last 3 Tory PMs
Lost the support of the public
Now he’s lost the support of God!!
Yet still he thinks he is correct…..
Lynch Mobb needs a kick in the googly's
Yet still he thinks he is correct…..
Im not sure he does, as much as hes just hoping something comes up to save his skin, befor ethe next fine drops and the next one, and the next one.....
Tories have no sense of shame do they?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61170379
Trying to delay a vote the ****ers will win anyway!
Boris is what he has always been, it's the reason he is where he is just now, and all the big events over the last decade have worked in his favour, it sucks, but he won't change, he'll fight tooth and nail to stay, do people expect a man with no real honour to do the honourable thing, he knows how weak his competition is, and is exploiting everything he can, as usual.
It's sadly the reality of life, like the lottery winner you see who's either already a millionaire, or a complete scumbag, good things don't just happen to good people.
As much as I despise bozo and think he's totally unfit to be pm, i was wondering why labour were trying to force this through now rather than waiting for the other fines and the final report. It sounds like there is worse to come so why no wait so it can all be considered? Not that it will make any difference. Nothing to see here etc.
Its win win for Labour. If he goes great, if he stays his electability is severely (critically imo) damaged.
they (labour) want to lose. Then it's on the Tory party not Johnson if they wait they may win (bad results in the local for example and 3 more fines dropping on the no 10's mat) and the tories get a pass.
It sounds like there is worse to come so why no wait so it can all be considered?
Forcing Conservative MPs to rally around the PM, after only one fine, to tie them to him when he gets more, and more information can come after the Met have finished and Gray might publish fully. They know what’s likely to be coming, but they’ll still meekly tie themselves to the Johnson wagon, tainting themselves. People don’t just vote for a PM, they vote for MPs. The party might change its leader, but it will still have many sitting MPs asking the public to vote for them at the next general election. Often in seats where Brexit and opinions on Corbyn worked in their favour more at the last election than they will at the next. It’ll be closer for many. And their decision to repeatedly back Johnson with his smirking elitist “one rule for me, another rule for the little people” attitude might make the difference.
As much as I despise bozo and think he’s totally unfit to be pm, i was wondering why labour were trying to force this through now rather than waiting for the other fines and the final report. It sounds like there is worse to come so why no wait so it can all be considered? Not that it will make any difference. Nothing to see here etc.
For the optics - going into the local elections pointing out that the tories voted to block the committee's review of whether Johnson deliberately misled parliament is toxic. Then if the local elections are disastrous on the back of that, the pressure to get shot of him grows.
It's a gamble now; the tories commit to supporting an inquiry once the Gray report / extra fines come out and promise not to block it*, so it's just buying time and / or gambling the Gray report won't be too damning and can be swept away.
* of course they can, you can't trust them in any way. They'll happily delay an inquiry on the understanding that it comes later, and then come up with some reason why it has to be delayed further or cancelled.
What Kelvin said.
My own useless **** of a Tory MP is sat on a majority of 100 votes. Many of the new ‘red wall’ Tory MPs are sat on similar paper-thin majorities.
So get them to ‘dip their hands in blood’ and ‘Back Boris’ with an ‘on the record’ Parliamenty vote on the one issue that has cut through and thus tie their fate to his as the second, third, fourth and however many more fines come in
My own MP has gone to ground of late. Saying nothing. This vote means he has to pick a side. Tie yourself to Boris, or not. No wonder they’re not wanting to do that in public.
Labour are absolutely right to force them to do so. And Johnson’s cronies are now doing everything to stop that happening, because they know that plenty are not going to be that keen and will prefer to ‘do a Boris’ and find a fridge to hide in instead
As others have said, Labour are in a win-win situation here.
The Tories have three choices to make:
Let the vote today go ahead and back Johnson.
Let the vote today go ahead and not back him.
Delay the vote and by proxy back Johnson.
The first and third options tie every MP to his fate for the next few years. The second option will be a hammer blow but does buy them time to rebuild, get a new leader etc before the next election. Labour have essentially played to the Tories blind side - keep in power at any cost - and they will now tie themselves in knots by not looking at the longer picture. We'll find out tonight which path they have chosen.
Interesting that Johnson after initially thinking he could bluff out a vote has u-turned and just wants to delay it
I'm quite enjoying the new game of writing to my MP. Not that he's joining in.
Dear Mr Lamont,
I am both a constituent and a conservative voter. But I am afraid that after the latest antics from Mr Johnson my vote will probably be cast elsewhere.
You are a man who understands the power of words and, I don't doubt, can spot a mealy mouthed non-apology when you hear it. I would have some respect for Mr Johnson if he admitted his failings but he has sought to muddy the waters and avoid the issues. I hope you will stand your ground and let the PM know that support will dwindle if he continues to lie.
The fact that members are being whipped speaks volumes but having looked at your voting record it would appear you tow the party line, which I'm afraid speaks volumes.
Regards
Dr 100th
Ma Hoose
Pish two "speaks volumes".
As others have said, Labour are in a win-win situation here.
Yet they will still lose the next election...
Ah ok, that makes more sense now, thanks. Would the committee have access to the Sue Gray report before it is released? Presumably that would be useful evidence for them to consider.
Yet they will still lose the next election…
Roll the turd in glitter, wrap it in a Union Jack and claim everyone else is unpatriotic.
It's already sewn up. They know their audience.
Well, our Tory MP has proved he really is one of Johnsons protege's. He's been forced to take down social media posts claiming that the local council has benefitted from millions in grants from various government pots, doled out by the benevolent Tory establishment.
Turns out that they haven't. They've applied for them, but haven't had any approved. It took him four days to take it down, once he was made aware of this, as if he wasn't already
Like the boss, just good, old-fashioned lying
Like the boss, just good, old-fashioned lying
If the electorate endorse it, what can sane people do?
Like the boss, just good, old-fashioned lying
The problem is that people read the headline - "millions given to councils by benevolent Tory Government, keep voting Tory for more cash!" - and by the time the journos have done due diligence on it, the council have said "err, none of this is true, you've cut our funding" and the original tweet deleted (notice how there's never a retraction, always just delete without admitting wrongdoing...), everyone has moved on.
The lie has gone all around the constituency before the truth has even got out of bed.
Like the boss, just good, old-fashioned lying
Dont worry there is hope yet. PA Media have just reported his visit to the Sabarmati Ashram where.
"Johnson signed a guestbook, writing that it was an “immense privilege” to learn about how Gandhi “mobilised such simple principles of truth and non-violence to change the world for the better”"
So who knows he might change a habit of a lifetime.
The lie has gone all around the constituency before the truth has even got out of bed.
An excellent description of modern media manipulation by politicians.
I don't think Gandhi ever changed his habit...or not once he had put it on. That is based on the photos I've seen of him and he was always wearing the same thing.
It's being reported that No10 has dropped the amendment that would try and delay tonight's vote so it going ahead as a Free Vote. Does that mean they now realise it's indefensible and there's no point delaying the inevitable?
Should be interesting!
Maybe they realised that they’d blundered in to the elephant trap the Labour Party set for them and realised that postponing it would just leave something else hanging over them as well as the upcoming fines.
I doubt it’ll be a free vote though. It’ll be a 3 line whip to line up to support the glorious leader
Does that mean they now realise it’s indefensible and there’s no point delaying the inevitable?
There are reports suggesting that quite a few mps would have gone for abstaining and some for voting for and no amount of threats from the whips looked likely to switch that.
Given what happened when the whips enforced the party line for Paterson its not overly surprising that there was pushback from the tory mps.
Better to accept it and then try to get the committee to come to the "right" decision behind the scenes. After all they do have a majority there even without Bryant recusing himself (not exactly clear if he will be temporarily replaced by another labour mp).
Does sound like a free vote will happen.... presumably so that the abstentions that would happen anyway are less damaging.
The delaying amendment always seemed a bit daft, it would just be weaponised against them to make it seem they are blocking it, and any investigation wont be able to conclude until all the fines are in anyway
Never underestimate Johnson's ability to sleaze his way out of trouble, but I do wonder if things might start to move quickly
I imagine MPs are getting feedback from local election canvassers and Tories must have polling numbers on locals
Wraggs speech was good
https://twitter.com/hewitson10/status/1517107013532229633
Bakers was absolute bollox from start to finish, honestly what a pompous git , his conclusion was right though, Johnson must go
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1517116214161641475
what Torys there are left in the house are queuing up to damn johnson
what Torys there are left in the house are queuing up to damn johnson
At least the met have stepped up to help him out. No more announcements about fines until after the local elections.
He's lost Steve Baker, chief of the Brexit nutters. Johnson is toast
It's looking a lot like endgame. Be great if they just left him in India but took his passport... Then he'd have to make his own way home, maybe via a boat across the channel only to be deported to Rwanda for processing.
At least the met have stepped up to help him out. No more announcements about fines until after the local elections.
The Mets ability to make PR blunders knows no bounds
now TBF Tories would have flipped if a fine had been issued just b4 election day, but Met really need to be 100% transparent
Patel would enjoy that far too much.
I wonder if Johnsons clever wheeze of running off to India to hide now seems like such a clever wheeze after all?
Seems like this is not going the way he planned it when he ran away
I wonder if Johnsons clever wheeze of running off to India to hide now seems like such a clever wheeze after all?
In fairness unlike his trip to Afghanistan to dodge the heathrow vote this trip will have had to be planned well in advance.
Hope they laid on a nice fridge for him to slip into in New Delhi.
Oh dear, if you've got one the architects of Brexit, Lehmann Brother's employee of the month and anti masker calling you out, then your Julius Caesar moment cannot be too far away.
Hopefully Steve hardman Baker hasn't been given more money from Putin to make a leadership challenge.
This isn't the first time Baker has denounced him though, is it? I'm guessing he thinks he can get an even more Brexity candidate into the top job, if such a thing exists. Maybe even a certain Steve Baker MP.
Hope they laid on a nice fridge for him to slip into in New Delhi.
I read that as "hope they laid a nice fridge on him".
Man can dream.
Apologies to all the conspiracy theorists, but the MET’s hands are tied apparently (or should that be handcuffed?). From today’s Guardian:
Whilst the investigation will continue during the pre-election period, due to the restrictions around communicating before the May local elections, we will not provide further updates until after 5 May.
This is in line with the “purdah” convention that government should not make announcements likely to advantage a political party ahead of an election.
Since when is a police investigation bound by purdah?
Apologies to all the conspiracy theorists, but the MET’s hands are tied apparently
Nope nothing in there (even with your shortened version) that says the Met are restricted. It specifically refers to the "government" and then goes on to talk about "spending".
So unless you have the specific legislation showing that the mets hands really are tied its back to them making a political decision.
The government are restricted in what they can do for the obvious reason they could try and shift the vote by promising goodies and have an obvious incentive to do so.
The police on the other hand are supposed to enforce the law.
I'm not so bothered about them avoiding election purdah, more how long they've buggered about so far without concluding their enquiry.
If I was the MET police, I would know full well that local elections fall on May 5, and that their enquiries (for which they have held all the evidence for some time), should be concluded before purdah kicked in.
Seems more like incompetence to me - if they were trying to protect the PM, they would have knocked all the cases back until after the polls closed.
I saw a clarification on twitter (so **** knows if it true), that they would still be issuing fines, just not reporting them to the press.
boris has 'promised' to tell us about any fines he gets, so obviously he will...
I saw a clarification on twitter (so **** knows if it true), that they would still be issuing fines, just not reporting them to the press.
Thats what the Guardian are reporting.
boris has ‘promised’ to tell us about any fines he gets, so obviously he will…
Yesss....Although he wouldnt want to undermine the police investigation would he? So thats a ready made excuse for Johnson.
Steve Baker and his club of poundshop race-baiters will love the fact that Boris is currently away hinting at visa relaxations to get some kind of good news about trade with India.
It is convenient that the only event Johnson has been fined for so far is a small one about which the government have been sewing "ambushed by a cake" nonsense for months. None of this has anything to do with cake, and it was a government minister that brought cake into it to muddy the waters. So Johnson can currently, in the run up to local elections, have his supporters talking about cake in tupperware and him only being there for 9 minutes... with no mentions of the bigger, longer, large attendance booze ups that occurred when law prevented anyone else from doing the same, never mind attend death beds, funerals and wakes.
Since when is a police investigation bound by purdah?
Since we had people in No10 who are the subject of an active police investigation. I’m guessing it never occurred that this might be an issue pre Alexander Boris dePfeffel Johnson.
I’m guessing it never occurred that this might be an issue pre Alexander Boris dePfeffel Johnson.
Which goes back to are the police actually bound by it or not? Is this all a conspiracy theory as alledgedly or have the police decided to apply purdah.
Purdah is in place to stop those currently in power abusing that position in the run up to the election. Which doesnt apply here.
I'm waiting for this parliamentary inquiry to determine that no rules were broken, and Johnson will get off scot free.
Not saying in cynical like, but run by themselves for themselves. Cross party might mean that individual votes aren't shown, and just the overall result is given, so if Labour all rules he misled parliament, but the tory members say he didn't, and hold the majority, then the result will be he didnt mislead them, even though that's clear to everyone that he did.
It will just be reported as the inquiry result is in favour of the pm.
As far as I know, the police are not announcing who gets the fines, those receiving them are, so you could argue that the PM’s staff are bound by purdah not to announce that he or they have received more fines… which is all nonsense of course.
then the result will be he didnt mislead them
Maybe. But what happens to the evidence they ask for…? The key thing about the enquiry is that it can help uncover the facts, even if the Conservative MPs on the committee decide to ignore them when it comes to the “result”. Those facts might well do for Johnson before any “result” is found anyway.
As far as I know, the police are not announcing who gets the fines
Correct but the police were at least saying fines have been issued.
So, for example, announcing that another 400 had been issued would be pretty telling in itself.
TBH we’ve seen the Slim Sue Gray Report,and the ongoing police fines.
at least some of the gatherings represent a serious failure to observe not just the high standards expected of those working at the heart of government but also of the standards expected of the entire British population at the time
They are going to have a hard job selling that he didn’t mislead parliament.
I’m just wondering how he can set the record straight as this doesn’t seem to want to go away.
I'm not sure it's 'end game' the guy is a liar and he's certainly mislead parliament on many many occasions. Whether you can call that outright lies is a legal matter, but the guy is a liar all be said.
Yet people still vote Conservative when thier figure head has a demonstrable track record of being as dodgy as hell.
Thatcher was purged whilst on a foreign trip, it would be fitting for de Pfeffel to wind up getting the Julius Caesar treatment while abroad.
They are going to have a hard job selling that he didn’t mislead parliament.
They are sticking with the too thick to understand his own rules argument and therefore unintentional misleading as opposed to being a actual liar.
Johnson has visited the JCB factory in India.
This is the company who bought our profitable, sustainable, well managed generator company and ran it into the ground because of offshoring.
Thanks, you've been a great help.
ignorantia non est defensio
This is the company who bought our profitable, sustainable, well managed generator company and ran it into the ground because of offshoring
But a large donor to the Tories, Boris”s leadership campaign and Brexit
That weird form of patriotism that involves ****ing your own economy to move production overseas but waving a Union Jack at the same time, so it’s all brilliant
Johnson has visited the JCB factory in India.This is the company who bought our profitable, sustainable, well managed generator company and ran it into the ground because of offshoring.
Thanks, you’ve been a great help.
The billionaire owner of JCB is a major donor to the Tories and was a prominent Vote Leave campaigner and donor too.
Ignorantia juris non excusat.
Johnson has visited the JCB factory in India.
Leaving aside all the normal issues with it (eg is it really right to be advertising a party donor, is it ok to offshore so long as you are a flagshagger and so on) its good timing for India specific politics. JCB bulldozers have had a starring role in a rather controversial action in Delhi where they have been flattening some Muslim areas after some clashes between Muslims and Hindus.
Since when is a police investigation bound by purdah?
Since we had people in No10 who are the subject of an active police investigation. I’m guessing it never occurred that this might be an issue pre Alexander Boris dePfeffel Johnson.
Indeed, but these are local elections. So far as I am aware none of the people being investigated are actually candidates... Right?
So how does purdah apply? If indeed it does apply to police investigations...
I think the point still stands, the police aren't a political organisation, their activities and release of information should not curbed on the basis of political convenience...
In other countries, a law enforcement body sitting on information related to potential wrongdoing by those in power in the run up to any major vote might be called 'propaganda' or 'disinformation' by us enlightened westerners...
Next you'll be telling me we shouldn't examine our senior politicians conduct because there's a conflict happening elsewhere in the world...
Oh...
Isn’t India Russias biggest ally at the moment?
An interesting choice of partner
I'm in the Fire Service and due to us ultimately being run by the PFCC, who can be party affiliated we can't make various announcements during purdah.
I imagine the Met are the same? Is the London Mayor their boss on paper?
Seems like this is not going the way he planned it when he ran away
TBH all he ever does is delay and hope something turns up he can utilise, covid,someone else’s war.
The plan is you can’t get rid of me as there is no one else who can lead. He’s special you see.(There is no plan other than protect big dog which is the problem as it’s a full time affair so there’s no time to achieve anything as you keep having to announce new and wackier schemes to divert attention.)
TBH I would have thought they would want him for a while to take the can for the summer cost of living chrisis and any other business.
Thats genius!! 😂
I didn't get it (not being Scottish) so here's a translation:
radge:
INFORMAL•SCOTTISH
noun
a wild, crazy, or violent person.
adjective
wild, crazy, or violent.
LOL
He's becoming a figure of ridicule. I feel Mr Brady's inbox may be bulging early next week. If they have vonc they surely couldn't back him now?