Improving real pay and conditions for UK resident workers
Isn’t happening. It can happen, but getting ride of foreigners isn’t the route to making that happen. It will make it worse for them. Buying into the lie that it is foreigners, not the UK government, stagnating wages will help take us to a very dark place.
Look, that immigrants cause wage stagnation is a lie (or a red herring if you like). As that lie becomes entirely normalised, it will lead our politicians to double down on that scapegoating and embrace others. If you win, and keep power, by blaming others, then why campaign and govern in any other way?
Isn’t happening.
Tell that to a truck driver.
And the millions of other workers? Especially those on a lower income than truck artic drivers.
The next stage of all this will be… some people have seen higher wages… if you’re struggling, it’s your own fault, and those on a low income will be increasing blamed for their own increasingly difficult finances. Of course, they are less likely to vote than the higher paid.
Do the Tories think that "high skilled, high paid" means high productivity? How do they measure productivity? Do the skills have to change regularly as the global economy changes?
Do the Tories think that “high skilled, high paid” means high productivity? How do they measure productivity
That's the bonkers thing, paying people more to do the same job reduces productivity!
Who pays for the higher skills? In Germany the federal government pays for 70% of the cost of driver training, for example. Could we not try that, to increase the skills of “our own”? How about our government bringing back the bursary for Nurses to be trained, rather than them borrowing money to work? There are many ways to develop a high skilled workforce. Why aren’t we doing so? [ look, there’s someone with an accent or dark skin doing the job … it’s all their fault ]
The next stage of all this will be… some people have seen higher wages… if you’re struggling, it’s your own fault
Of course, that's been the tories (and many in labour) mantra for as long as we've had a class system. What I'm trying to point out though is that this continuing obsession of the liberal middle classes with immigration and inflation, will be perceived by many working people as opposition to them being better off. It's a self-defeating position.
And the millions of other workers? Especially those on a lower income than truck drivers.
That's the Elephant in the room for me. Yes, truck drivers might get a rise, catering staff might get a rise but the vast, vast majority will not. The price of everything is going up but most people's wages are not and will not. How many million public service workers earn low wages? Are the Tories going to stop giving them a kicking long enough to pay them more?
A mate of mine works for a Gym equipment supplier and doesn't earn a huge amount. The cost of shipping has gone from 2.5k per container to 14k, putting £40 on the price of every Treadmill. The businesses they sell to refuse to pay more and the public are not buying them at the higher price. Is his boss in a position to raise his wage? The business very rarely turned a profit before the increased shipping.
snobs
Nah, just people who realise 'productivity' is a measure of what you actually produce and at what cost.
Plonker.
Who pays for the higher skills? In Germany the federal government pays for 70% of the cost of driver training, for example. Could we not try that, to increase the skills of “our own”? How about our government bringing back the bursary for Nurses to be trained, rather than them borrowing money to work? There are many ways to develop a high skilled workforce. Why aren’t we doing so? [ look, there’s someone with an accent or dark skin doing the job … it’s all their fault ]
They can talk about wage increases all they like but in the vast majority of cases it won't happen
Nor will they do anything that even dares to challenge their Thatcherite world view. So 'the all-powerful 'Market' will be left to sort it out. Or not.
Government must be small and essentially just a contracting out office. Under no circumstances must it get involved with anything like training or equiping people with skills.
That is entirely the responsibility of the individual. And if you can't afford the tuition fees, the thousands of pounds it costs to train as a lorry driving classes or a year unpaid as an intern... tough shit!
So ‘the all-powerful ‘Market’ will be left to sort it out. Or not.
A market that is isolated. If we were a net exporter it could be made to work, but adding an unnecessary cost burden to imported products, where those products do not change in price (fx) with a devaluing £, is economic illiteracy and will end up hitting the lowest paid hardest.
My advice to an artic driver who is having a purple patch would be to use it to pay down as much of their mortgage as possible before interest rates wipe out that pay rise.
You cannot stick a fence up around a country and pay over the odd as a massive net importer of basic goods.
But I guess this is just more Project Fear...
🙄
Buying into the lie that it is foreigners, not the UK government, stagnating wages will help take us to a very dark place.
Nationalism combined with socialism.
You cannot stick a fence up around a country and not pay over the odds as a massive net importer of basic goods.
Especially if you are also going to hamper the production of basic goods at home with your own inept and short sighted policies. Which, is exactly what this government has been doing for 10 years, as regards energy, food, homes... and isn't proposing any plan for fixing any of it any time, soon, just barking at people working in the sectors hit to "do something" to solve the problems it has created for them.
Nor will they do anything that even dares to challenge their Thatcherite world view.
Apart from paying people’s wages during the pandemic, propping up businesses, pouring billions into green energy and other infrastructure programmes, maintaining full employment, abandoning austerity and probably in the not too distant future increasing the minimum wage. Apart from all that, they’re not departing from thatcherism at all. 🙄
departing from thatcherism
I'm not sure you've got Sunak's message... that's over.
in the not too distant future increasing the minimum wage
The minimum wage increase that was postponed in April, due to the pandemic, better turn up soon, because people need that over due bump in their wages desperately. I mean, you might be pretending that they've all magically had a pay rise because we got rid of foreigners, but even you know that isn't true. When the government stop dithering and delaying in delivering the bump in the minimum wage that was expected, and it comes a year late, I don't want you getting all excited about it, like you've been led up to that point by the media, please. It was painful enough on the run up to Johnson's big (empty) speech.
Tell you what, Daz-lad.
You'll be sticking a blue rosette on and going door knocking in the Red Wall at this rate.
Nationalism combined with socialism. Ace.
Immigration suppresses wages - in the case of the EU wages will even out over the whole area.
Didn't think it was worth starting another thread.
Tory MP champions free speech:
“The other way we can stop the cancel culture is by actually saying to the woke left lecturers and the woke left teachers – who seem to be becoming more and more apparent – is that ultimately, what’s going to happen if you are going to push your ideology in the classroom there are going to be consequences for you,” he said.
Defeat cancel culture by cancelling people, seems reasonable. Also, any teacher mentioning white privilege should be reported to Prevent for extremism.
'The Toriban'
in the case of the EU wages will even out over the whole area
In a hundred years perhaps. Not happened yet. Mind you, it's not happened across the UK yet either. Or the USA. Or within any large EU country. Still, back to TJ's post... how do "Germany, the low countries and Scandinavia" have more equal societies, and rising real pay for lower paid workers, while also providing more services for them, while also having Freedom of Movement and relatively high levels of immigrants in the workforce? What's their secret? Why don't we do some of that, rather than follow this "red herring" (I still maintain it's more than that, it's a lack of economic literacy paired with a mistrust and scapegoating of foreigners) of building a fence around ourselves and keeping people out?
Sounds like you’ve bought into the whole package Daz
With this new National socialism, looks like you’ve found your spiritual home
Wages in respective jobs Kelvin. Not wages overall
What does that mean?
That salaries for similar roles will harmonise across the EU? Because they’re not even the same across Yorkshire. I’d love for wages in the southern EU countries to catch up with those in northern countries. Maybe one day they will, but that’s not been the trend since the 2008 crash.
You’ll be sticking a blue rosette on and going door knocking in the Red Wall at this rate.
As if. You keep believing in your outdated stereotypes and political cliches though, and keep pretending that all was hunky-dory pre-2016.
Sounds like you’ve bought into the whole package Daz
With this new National socialism, looks like you’ve found your spiritual home
Make your mind up binners.......is this present government "thatcherite" or "new national socialism".
You can't claim it is both, as you have very clearly done so today.
Unless of course you have a bizarre theory that Thatcher was also committed to "new national socialism".
Sort out your hyperbole mate and decide which one it is.
I’d love for wages in the southern EU countries to catch up with those in northern countries. Maybe one day they will, but that’s not been the trend since the 2008 crash.
Is that right? The only country I know a little about is Romania and as I understood it wages there have increased massively with EU membership and further integration.
With this new National socialism, looks like you’ve found your spiritual home
Did you seriously just write that? FFS! I know this is only a meaningless internet forum but you can't piss around with calling people nazis.
keep pretending that all was hunky-dory pre-2016
Ha! Like Binners was content with the state of the UK before 2016! Never moaned about anything, did he… 😹
From my own pre-2016 position… lots needed doing, we’ve not been doing any of it though, have we? We’ve stagnated and been busy erecting barriers to the world with no acknowledgment that they will make things worse, or a plan for even mitigating that, never mind making it better. And now we’re supposed to cheer on our “victory” against the foreigners, and embrace the damage to our country that is coming about because of chasing the “red herring” of keeping foreign workers out? Because now we’ve made things worse for ourselves by doing so, our government will be forced to restructure the UK economy to better serve everyone? Really?!?
Binners was content with the state of the UK before 2016!
It wasn't directed at binners.
Who’s it aimed at? David Cameron?
Ahh… you meant Dannyh… I have no idea if they thought that “no change” was required before 2016… but you can see the folly of “these changes” we are putting ourselves through without being a defender of the “status quo” as it was 5 years ago.
I know this is only a meaningless internet forum but you can’t piss around with calling people nazis.
Why not? Dannyh has doing it on an almost daily basis for ages.
Apparently Boris Johnson is like Hitler and Tory voters are all Nazis.
Edit : What you mustn't do though is use the term 'nitty gritty', apparently.
You do know what that term means, don’t you?
There's no doubt the country was pretty broken in many ways 5 years back but by God, seems like paradise in comparison to now.
A lost decade due to austerity, another 5 years arguing and scapegoating and here we are.
Self inflicted and completely avoidable.
On many of the political threads on here, as with this one, there a five or so main contributors. Full disclosure - you all can dance rings round me with you socio/economic/political knowledge.
I know it's not really the done thing on here but I'd love to know what you guys could come up with, to fix the current mess we are in, instead of arguing!
I'm not being sarcy/funny. I'm not trying to offend. But it seems to me that things could be much, much better if we work together to fix this mess. Rather than letting the Tories keep using the divide and conquer technique.
Offered in honesty and hope. Please don't flame me 😘😘😘
I know it’s not really the done thing on here but I’d love to know what you guys could come up with, to fix the current mess we are in, instead of arguing!
Of course go begging back to the EU cap in hand
Moderate course of action:
Increase taxation over £50 000 pa, increase driving taxation. Increase minimum wage, introduce rent controls, proportional representation, federal UK
Decisive action: convert the economy to carbon taxes, go for universal basic income ( plus the above)
What i really want to do:
Shoot 90% of the worlds population then do the above
Not quite what I was thinking myself TJ 🤣🤣🤣
But thanks responding!
Did you ever manage to start the UK branch of the NRA? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Dannyh has doing it on an almost daily basis for ages.
I suppose I should be honoured. At least now I’ve graduated from nazi sympathiser to a full blown goose-stepper on account of my remainer non-conformism.
I’d suggest the same as Tj. Except the shooting thing. I like people.
Thank you Kelvin!
I'd be keen to hear your thoughts (and anyone elses) how we go about achieving that?
If it matters, I completely agree.
Ok here goes..
"Its all too ****ing late"
That window of opportunity to restructure the economy closed in the late 70s, it was killed by deregulation, chronic investment in infrastructure, the myth that we could get by on services and retail.
Seriously Brexit is just part of a"long con" that started with Thatcher,continued by Blair and so on.
The current Tory government looks like its slightly left of Corbyn... this is because they hsve no option, well they have but that means they would be out at the next election.
Nothing spends as easily as other peoples money... in this case ours.
I'd struggle to say why your wrong oldmanmtb2.
However, I'm a pigheaded, stubborn, principled clown.
It makes me furious at what is happening in front of me and I can't just look away and let it happen.
But I honestly don't know how to counter it. As TJ nodded to, will it really need violence in the streets?
It wasn't about violence in the streets - it was that there are far too many people on the planet to live sustainably and far too many of them are unpleasant nasty people.
so a cull is in order. a large cull. One I am in charge of and you had better be nice to me or you will be added to the list
I agree there are too many people.
But that is a another story...
By the way, your looking great these days. Have you done something new with your hair? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I know it’s not really the done thing on here but I’d love to know what you guys could come up with, to fix the current mess we are in, instead of arguing!
Of course go begging back to the EU cap in hand
Norway style deal is the logical landing spot
If you really want to aim for a low immigration hi wage, hi productivity economy then you'd spend the next 5 or so years investing in training the 'low skilled' workers in social care, truckers, etc etc
Facilities for truckers, an actual plan for social care, raising minimum wage considerably,& big pay raise for civil servants, healthcare, genuinely leveling up education, funding councils & all that follows from that, sure start, youth centres, leisure facilities, policing etc etc etc
Instead we've got the opposite: hard brexit after a decade of austerity which is a recipe for a viscous circle of reducing productivity & shrinking the economy, leaving those at the bottom of society most exposed
so a cull is in order. a large cull. One I am in charge of and you had better be nice to me or you will be added to the list
TJ?
