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I still think the forum has a strong centre right / establishment bias
I think it’s left leaning, it’s just the right wing posts focus your attention and stick out amid the sea of centre/left commenters. You can probably name a lot of the right wing posters, but not all of the left, despite there being many. (I used to think the same as you, but some one with significantly more insight offered the above explanation.)
tom - I suspect many of those you see as centre left and see themselves as, I see as centre right. Its just the political centre has moved so far to the right in England. the labour party has not been a lefrt wing party for 30years
Definitely a left leaning forum (speaking as a left wing person)
I think some people are at a point of despair/desperation with the direction the country has taken that their default position is to overreact.
Guessing they must be young. I first became politically/socially aware from 1980 and the direction of the country was set then. They was a blip of hope around late 90's but the direction has remained over the 40 years as a whole. It seems more obvious now due to social media, Brexit vote and so on but it only briefly went in a good direction and we are now back at 1980's level with race and sex.
you see Kerley I would have you down as a centrist ( I think)
the only proper lefty on this forum is Ernie
the only proper lefty on this forum is Ernie
Aww *blushes*
You know I support brexit and hate political correctness dontcha?
I hate racism with every bone in my body though.
Wishy washy pale pink liberal then?
How can you hate a linguistic theory about not using prejudicial or pejorative descriptors for people?
Speaking correctly matters little to me. I make a big effort on here because I'm in polite company.
you see Kerley I would have you down as a centrist ( I think)
I have a very practical/realistic view of the lay of the land and what can be achieved within the UK today with the likes of Ernie being in what I see as the dreamer camp and where I was when I was much younger.
(although it is a dream I would want to live in given the choice - obviously not talking about real dreams here, I don't really want Ernie dreaming about me!).
Speaking correctly matters little to me. I make a big effort on here because I’m in polite company.
Surely tho you would not use prejudicial or pejorative descriptions of people?
Absolutely. Including the ginger-haired **** that I sometimes do work for.
You know I support brexit and hate political correctness dontcha?
I hate racism with every bone in my body though.
Not really. ‘Ginger’ as a pejorative epithet is (after all) one of the most politically-correct/acceptable racial/minority slurs?
So maybe you’re not as brave/radical/sticking-it-to-the-PC-Brigade as you’d like think? 😉
you say you pretended to be unpc (twice?), and don’t understand what people assumed you aren’t pc, and whine about it?
I’m not whining. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and (b) slag someone else off.
If you really care about others, being nice to actual people on this forum will make more of a difference.
If someone says something stupid, disagree with it but don’t slag them off. Not everybody is gifted with the ability to express themselves clearly at all times, especially when tired, drunk or on the phone.
My methods might be obscure but the discussion has ended up in the right place. I agree with what Ernie said.
PS There was a homophobic comment earlier and nobody noticed. I guess we’re all part of one of society’s problems.
Pwned
Edit: *2
You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and (b) slag someone else off.
Erm, that's just someone disagreeing with you.
So maybe you’re not as brave/radical/sticking-it-to-the-PC-Brigade as you’d like think? 😉
Well did say that I make a big effort on here due to being in the presence of polite company. Also in real life I throw a lot more ****s when expressing myself than I would ever do on here.
I'm very sensitive to people's sensitivities....... I'm that sort of guy. Can't you tell?
But yeah, anti-ginger is a form of racism which everyone can embrace - Reginald D. Hunter would agree with that.
Which is why I used it.
You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and (b) slag someone else off.
Aye, you can. Intolerance of intolerance is fine.
Also, no one says you don't have the right to express your opinion. No one is going to put you in jail if you express your opinion. That's all freedom of expression means.
Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. Getting slagged off for voicing an unpopular opinion is one of those consequences.
If your opinion wasn't bullshit you'd have no problems justifying it no matter how many people jumped in to slag you off. I think that's the problem if you voice bullshit opinions in an unsupportive environment.
Like someone said earlier, go to pistonheads if you want people to congratulate you for being so witty and clever.
I’m not whining. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and
You can express an contrary opinion - and if its nonsense you will be called out on it. I fully expect it.
make a controversial statement you will be asked to back it up. thats how debate works and not all opinions are equal.
tjagain
Full MemberI tend to agree with you to some extent. I still think the forum has a strong centre right / establishment bias but its a lot less than it was.
Was this a joke?
Nope - its how I see it. the political map in England has moved so far right thats how it comes out. I see labour supporters as centrist or right of centre - cos thats where the party is.
I see labour supporters as centrist or right of centre – cos thats where the party is.
it was under Blair, I don’t think anyone would accuse Corbin as been right of most people. Who knows about under starmer I don’t know what he really stands for yet
tjagain
Full MemberNope – its how I see it. the political map in England has moved so far right thats how it comes out. I see labour supporters as centrist or right of centre – cos thats where the party is.
Okay, fair enough - that's interesting. I'd consider myself to be a lefty, but personally find this forum to be very strongly left wing on the whole.
You can express an contrary opinion – and if its nonsense you will be called out on it. I fully expect it.
make a controversial statement you will be asked to back it up. thats how debate works and not all opinions are equal.
Yeah but in crispo's case the post was deleted by a mod. I can't remember exactly what it said as it was over 60 posts ago, but it went along the lines of "it was just an innocent compliment and should have been accepted as such".
IMO crispo's remark was definitely nonsense, a random stranger catcalling a female cyclist should never be dismissed as merely an innocent compliment, and that's quite apart from the fact that the comment was imo totally cringe inducing, who the **** comes out with bollox like that? It's like something Lee Nelson would say for comedic effect.
But was crispo's post offensive? I can't see how it could be classed as such. It seems to me that a mod deleted crispo's post because they didn't like the opinion it expressed, not because it was offensive.
Which is fine of course - as has been pointed out if you don't like it there's always pistonhead. What makes it weird is people claiming that you are free to express your opinion. What would be more appropriate would be to claim that you are free to express the correct opinion.
IMHO
it was under Blair, I don’t think anyone would accuse Corbin as been right of most people
Policy under corbyn would have been fine in a CDU ( german centre right party) manifesto. Nothing in it was out of the ordinary for european social democratic or centrist parties. Its a sign of how far right England ( and I do mean england) has moved that Corbyns moderate centerist manifesto was seen as radical and far left
I have never seen opinions deleted but I didn't see that post.
What makes it weird is people claiming that you are free to express your opinion.
It wasn’t his opinion though, he claims. It was a deliberately contrary opinion, one which was offensive to over half the country, which is trolling, which is against the rules.
He claimed it wasn't really his opinion after the post had been deleted.
I have no idea how a mod might have known that it wasn't really crispo's opinion.
But was crispo’s post offensive? I can’t see how it could be classed as such. It seems to me that a mod deleted crispo’s post because they didn’t like the opinion it expressed, not because it was offensive.
Yes it was deleted. I said a page or two back that I reported it, I don't remember exactly what it said now, but it was along the lines of 'it's not serious, it's just banter'. It, and also the first post / no comment clickbait-ey start touched a nerve that was a little raw after a conversation I'd had with my wife and 17yo daughter following the 'Everyone's Invited' story of last week.
I don't think I regret reporting but I did specifically say that I thought the mods should not delete it. I believe in freedom of expression, and also that the best way to expose a sexist or racist is by pouring sunlight, not bleach on their opinions. I wondered in my report if the better response would have been for one of STW's lady staffers to give their opinion on the 'just bantz'. If they were like DezB's partner, or the story I got from my daughter, I suspect they would not agree.
Sadly this poster has -> IMHO <- previous with borderline dogwhistle opinions on the Covid thread. Ambiguous enough to deny, and/or like this time employ the 'School debate' defence on. But sometimes I trust my instinct.
I might be wrong in which case I'd happily apologise. I have asked on both threads to explain where they really stand. But if they aren't genuine opinions then it's getting close to trolling, 'posting insincere / inflammatory messages with the intent of provoking'
FWIW and I hope I don't get in trouble here but the Mods message to me was:
we were aware of the thread and we’re keeping an eye on it, we’re not going to take the post down as the reaction of the other posters is a very good, condemning, one which is representative of the views of the mods and STW.
but then post was removed anyway including others that quoted it.
PS JonV: I have a lot of respect for you but I have actually made it clear where I stand in both cases.
I'm not clear. Instead of hiding it behind 'lots of people think like that' what do you think?
But sometimes I trust my instinct.
I reckon you are bang on.
I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was along the lines of, um, it was intended as just a bit of jokey bantz and a compliment to boot, so was hardly sexual harassment, and I’ve had worse myself and not been bothered.
I will probably be banned for repeating that, but have done so because I really don’t think it’s offensive or misogynistic.
You really need to read up and learn a bit about this stuff then because i can assure you that comment is both offensive and misogynistic
Its not jokey bantz. Its offensive behaviour. Its not a compliment - its about power
If you are interested in learning about this stuff then I have some good suggestions of books to read.
But let me assure you once again - that comment is both offensive and misogynistic
Educate, convince. Don’t condemn, mock.
That I can agree with, and there maybe should be more of it from some on here.
But you go about it in such a clumsy way.
Sorry, I'm... *cough* a little behind.
I suspect that the reference was to other stuff.
Fair enough, I missed that. Sorry.
Such as you referring to people who use the term “woke” of being “right-wing fascist”.
That's not abuse, it's a statement of fact. No-one uses 'woke' as an insult unless (as someone else already posted) they're trying to shut down awareness.
Interesting that you should make the “chlorine” comment because stw has indeed been politically sterilised in recent years,
No it hasn't. But we've seen this movie before haven't we.
If you feel it hasn’t then I can only assume that you weren’t around when Tory supporters would post their views on here with gay abandon.
There's nothing stopping them from doing that still.
Do you want them to do be able to that without allowing a reply from the rest of the userbase? There's plenty of other places they can do that, write in to the Express. If the argument is "I can't state my opinion because it'll be unpopular" then well cry me a river, why do you think that might be?
People have been removed for being disruptive. No-one has ever been removed for their (legal) political beliefs. Ever.
Cougar’s posts, to give one of the more extreme example, positively drip with anger, bitterness, and intolerance
I'm intolerant of bigots. I'm also intolerant of people who present nonsense as fact without backing up their claims and (like a lot of people on here) will challenge that. Bitter, maybe a little, I'm getting to the age where it's appropriate to shout at clouds. Angry, not even remotely, don't flatter yourselves.
I only know of Mefty’s support for the Tory Party because of what he posted years ago, not what he posts these days.
Funny how I ping on your radar and Mefty doesn't. I'm -terrible- at keeping track of usernames and I'm well aware of Mefty's particular political leanings, they're pretty prolific.
Genuinely, a pack animal approach to anyone that doesn’t conform.
Or alternatively, unpopular opinions aren't popular, film at 11. What do you want here, are you complaining that we have insufficient racists on the forum?
Christ almighty.
(a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and
Which hasn't happened.
(b) slag someone else off.
Which is probably deserved. Snowflake.
You have the right on the STW forum to express an opinion, so long as it remains within the law. You do not have the right to express an opinion unchallenged. If you're going to talk shit then the moderators aren't going to protect you, that's on you, that's the freedom of speech that's seemingly so precious.
‘it’s not serious, it’s just banter’
Another battle cry that should be on the list.
Here's the thing. It's only 'bants' if the target is a friend who has afforded you that privilege. Otherwise, it's not banter, it's bullying. If I punched you in the face and then yelled "only joking!" would that be OK?
one which is representative of the views of the mods and STW.
Careful now.
The only people who can say what's representative of "the mods'" views is each individual moderator, and the only person who can represent the views of STW is Mark. Well, maybe Chipps or other staff. But sweeping statements like that hold no water.
I was a moderator here for a decade and the only entity I ever felt that I had any rights to represent the views of was me. And trust me, the moderation team have had some wildly differing, uh, differences of opinion over the years both over moderation decisions and as mere forum users. I once tried to ban myself, turned out I cannot self-terminate, which was a shame because I really wanted to tell someone they were a **** and was prepared to take the hit of a fortnight off to do so.
But anyway. You cannot lay any perceived political leanings within the forum on its owners and volunteers (outside of the excision of a handful of toxic shitbags) anywhere else other than the people who contribute to it. (Aside from the old Daily Mail link redirect, which was only ever
really meant as a laugh anyway as far as I can tell.)
As an aside: I think I'm going to try and reclaim the use of "snowflake" to throw back at *-ist tossbags who don't like being called *-ist tossbags. There's a bit of a delicious irony here.
Maybe Ernie was right after all. I'm so very very tired of other people's shit. If you're going to jump into a debate then you're choosing to get into that arena. If however you're merely riding a bike down a road minding your own business and you get your arse slapped for no other reason than "having an arse" then yeah, that does make me a bit cross.
I really wanted to tell someone they were a **** and was prepared to take the hit of a fortnight off to do so.
Why the need to tell someone that they are a ****? As far as I can recall I have never felt need to do that on stw.
Yup, angry, bitter, and intolerant, is a fair comment I reckon, despite your claim that you are not even "remotely" angry - going around wanting to call people a **** suggests that you are.
Well, it was that or ban them and then be accused of bias.
Ironically.
I can't remember the circumstance now, it was several years ago and I hadn't been here all that long. It might've been rampant misogyny? Maybe. I was a bit cross though, to be fair.
Yup, angry, bitter, and intolerant, is a fair comment I reckon,
Is it? What do other readers think?
Am I that devoid of introspection? Gosh.
Is it? What do other readers think?
If you are interested it is how you have been coming across for a while now. I thought quitting as a mod might help you relax but I can't say I've noticed that happening. That's meant constructively. Its only a middle class chat forum, no harm done.
Is it? What do other readers think?
I'd say more impatient when the same old shit gets posted.
On this thread though, absolutely spot on.
Is it? What do other readers think?
As you asked....
I think towards of your long and excellent service as a mod, you came across as though you were getting fed up being polite and respectful when dealing with the idiots. Like most people who deal with the public, in any context really.
Now you don't have to worry about your personal views being construed as the views of STW, you seem to sometimes be making up for lost time. 😉
The last 5 years have polarised a lot of opinions on here, I've seen a shift in long term posters getting more impatient and testy with people they disagree with. I'm guilty of it as well. Maybe it's an age thing. Sometimes I've been on the receiving end, sometimes I've dished it out, sometimes I've thought "**** it", let rip and waited for a ban.
Why the need to tell someone that they are a ****?
I have, more than a few times, I've been banned each time, which doesn't bother me really. If someone write something that I wouldn't let pass in real life I won't let it pass here.
I’ve seen a shift in long term posters getting more impatient and testy with people they disagree with
It is similar to having a good discussion and then that person comes along who you really don't like, have had many annoying 'debates' with in the past and can't be bothered with them anymore.
On a forum you have the choice to ignore them or get sucked in which will add to the frustration and probably make you a bit angry.
I ignore quite a few people on this forum and it works for me, just as many people probably ignore me. Could have a block user feature to help but that just leads to confusing threads as you see replies to posts that you didn't originally see.
Good thread, it demonstrates that there's been a change in society and attitudes over the past decade or so. The casual sexism on STW going back to hack period days was not good. Some people must be very pleased the hack removed a chunk of their contributions. Some people have disappeared and returned with a new pseudo (without a ban AFAIK) perhaps divorcing themselves from earlier views.
If anyone is worried about becoming less tolerant or even angry then just make the check "am I on the side of right and good?", because it takes getting angry and being intollerant of the unacceptable to erradicate it.
Going back to just post hack I got a ban for being abusive towards a member. The "abuse" was linking three of his own threads about his relation with his other half and suggesting he could be the problem not her. I'd been following the saga and drawn my conclusions. I'm absolutely certain that attitudes have changed and I wouldn't be the only one making the point these days and I'm equally sure such a point wouldn't result in outrage, reports and a ban.
Progress.