Forum menu
Aha! You’ve inspired me, I’ve done some more hunting! Are there any easy ways to share audio files online? Top quality iPhone voice memo of acoustic bass guitar…
DropBox and invite sharing?
If you just want to upload so folks can listen, then SoundCloud is handy
EDIT: and there's an option to make it downloadable
Premier Icon
chiefgrooveguru
Free MemberAndy, that’s an epic amount of ‘90s gear! Rackmounted I presume? Is the Trace Elliot GP12SMX preamp the first one to have the two different preshapes? I’m designing an amp at the moment and I’m putting a few switchable preshapes in that and one of them is the more rock ‘90s TE preshape (I’ve already got the super scooped ‘80s shape covered).
Yes, it has the two preshapes (but the GP7 did too, so I’m not sure about it being the first) plus the “EQ balance” and separate high and low compression.
Tube/solid state blendable front end and full range/variable crossover line outs. There’s a reason that I’ve used it for as long as I have...
Flight cased with one of the Mackie M1400s (which I believe you also used at one time?) with the other in a 2U flightcase.
That, along with those Peavey birch ply cabs (with not very light drivers) weighs a ton and I’m getting too old to hump it about. I sometimes use the TC Electronic BH800 but I’m old-school and it just seems like a toy....
Maybe I should pension it all off and get something more state-of-the art? But at my age??
Just to add to my post above - I was out depping yesterday evening with the Peavey Palaedium, through the Trace/Mackie head and the two 2x10” cabs in a loudish blues/rock band in a biggish venue but with no PA support for the bass.
A guy in the audience came up to me at the end of the night to tell me that the bass sound was “probably the best that I’ve heard in thirty years, in any situation”.....
So, even at my age, I must still be doing something right.....
The Palaedium is a pretty impressive bass, mind you. Not if you’re a slapper, maybe, but I don’t do much of that now.
"Maybe I should pension it all off and get something more state-of-the art? But at my age??"
If it ain't broke! You got a great preamp, tons of power and cabs that can move enough air (and clearly suit you tonally). To achieve that with something smaller/lighter will not be cheap.
I wasn't sure what a Palaedium was - googled it and it's a Jeff Berlin bass, I recognise that (I finally actually listened to some of his music, after reading his columns etc over the last quarter century - he's clearly a very proficient musician but I was left baffled that anyone would actually want to listen to it. Ah well, each to their own...) Unusual to have such widely spaced pickups - does it scoop out the mids a lot with them panned equally? Peavey have made some great gear over the years, hidden amongst all their less good sounding stuff - my first proper amp was a Peavey. Possibly the most reliable/indestructible stuff too.
"I’ve just spent a few minutes noodling that second phrase. That E natural is a real anomaly, every part of me wants to play an E# (m3 rather than M2), especially as that’s what the phrase shows an octave higher."
So on that recording I kept the first phrase (in D) the same (is that D dominant flat 9?) then the phrase in E changed the first two notes of the response so it's like Emaj9, which remains out of key vs the D phrase. And then I added the ascending phrases, Bdim9, D dom b9, Emaj9, F#/E. And then there's a fun little fill and into the chorus riff. This is the second half of the arrangement, the first half starts with me quietly playing through the chorus changes as straight eighth note roots and that crescendos into the chorus riff, and after the chorus we come into this middle section. Obviously things will probably change once melodies and lyrics get involved!
Apologies for the thread resurection, been meaning to post on here but but been out and about.
Another new Bassist thanks to Covid, been wanting to get into it for years, played 6-string when I was a nipper but it never really clicked, a chance conversation with a mate during lockdown lead to him announcing 'Oh, I've gota bass, haven't touched it in years, want to borrow it?'
I am now the proud 'owner' of a 92' vintage Japanese P-Bass it wa pretty rough when I recieved it but I've had fully serviced and had some Flat Wounds put on.
Full set up now is an Orange Crush Bass 100 with a Sansamp Driver, MXR Compressor and a EXH Big Muff.
Been really enjoying it but I'm still very green and I'm still not sure how to get the chunky tones I want for 90's Punk & Hardcore and a bit of stoner rock. Much experimentation yet to be done.
"I’m still very green and I’m still not sure how to get the chunky tones I want"
There's a lot to be said for messing around with the bass unplugged in a quiet room and listening to how doing different things with your right and left hand changes the tone. And then plugging in and doing the same without twisting any knobs, just vol and tone at full. And then start turning knobs and hearing what that does. So much tone comes from the hands!
Did quite a bit of that before I got my amp, still play unplugged a lot as I have 2 young kids so rattling the windows isn't an option.
The fact I'm near tone deaf doesn't help, I know when something sounds 'right' or wrong' but have real trouble working out why.
For instance, currently listening loads to Kirkhi's (bloody brilliant) album, and in the first track at about 2:35 in there's a fantastic Bass segment, this kind of tone is what I'd love to be able to get.
“ For instance, currently listening loads to Kirkhi’s (bloody brilliant) album, and in the first track at about 2:35 in there’s a fantastic Bass segment, this kind of tone is what I’d love to be able to get.”
Most of the vibe of that is from plucking back near the bridge for maximum growl and being really tight on the muting to nail the note lengths. There’s dirt too but that’s not the core.
Interesting, so you think he's using fingers, I assumed he was using a pick.
Yeah, muting is something I need to work on.
I've been experimenting with the Big Muff but, whilst I've managed to get all sorts of fun sounds out of it it doesn't seem to have quite that defined punch on individual notes that I'm after.
Food for thought, thanks.
“ Interesting, so you think he’s using fingers, I assumed he was using a pick.”
He is using a pick but I don’t! 😉 You can get the right vibe if you really attack hard. Fuzzes aren’t punchy unless you run something cleaner in parallel. I love Big Muffs though, our Machinist pedal is based around that circuit with clean and overdrive/distortion all in parallel.
I listened to OMD's Enola gay and realised the keyboard part has the same range as my bass so started noodling along. Watching a few vids about it I agree with the writers comment "all the best tunes can be played with one finger", though it takes a few more on bass.
This being a bass thread I suppose I ought to get technincal even if it couldn't be simpler: a bass, p-pickup only, tone 2/3, Marshal JCM guitar amp into guitar cab, clean channel bass 10 middel 9 treble 9 gain 8 volume not much.
Recorded as soon as I could remember the words so it can only get better with playing:
Superb @edukator as usual 👍
Now, amplifiers again.
One of @chiefgrooveguru ‘s 1x10 cab is looking on the cards, but what head to go with it?
An Aguila tonehammer 350 or a Darkglass microtubes 500 are the main contenders.
I want a bit of quality, just for home use.
Amos Heller is making a good case for Darkglass. Whaddya think?
Thanks for the encouragement, oldtennisshoes. There's no way I'd spend 1000e on an amp and cab and only have a 10". I'd want a 12" driver even for home use just for the feel of playing with a driver that shifts plenty of air. I haven't heard any of those amps for real but the Youtubes suggest the Aguila has a really nice clean sound and pleasant drive. The Darkglass goes a step further in drive if you like that (unless it was just the reviewers winding the gain up more). Both would do me. A headphone socket is a nice option if you share a house with other people and want to practice with the same amp sound.
I’ve been watching a bit of Flea recently. Possibly my favourite bassist of the moment.
Still can’t decide on the amp. The new Yamaha designed Ampeg Rocket Bass combos are now in the mix.
Another complete novice here who started in April last year. Always wanted to take up playing something and with friends in bass it seemed the obvious choice.
Picked up an Ashdown B-Social as a practice amp along with a Hofner Ignition bass. The Bass is nice but not that great as a beginner bass, so picked up a Bass Centre Betsey, being a Guy Pratt fan, and also knowing the guys at Ashdown it was the obvious choice.
The B-Social got some other ash down kit to join it with an Ashdown CTM-30 (love valve amps) and a ABM 210 and ABM 115 cab.
Have also picked up a Trans Teal MusicMan Stingray, as a Runrig fan.
Hopefully the GAS has been fulfilled for a while.
I used the Fender play app to learn along with Songsterr app. I'm still terrible but enjoy it.
"There’s no way I’d spend 1000e on an amp and cab and only have a 10″. I’d want a 12″ driver even for home use just for the feel of playing with a driver that shifts plenty of air."
But you're forgetting that how much air a speaker can move depends upon the cone area multiplied by the cone excursion - it's a three dimensional thing. Our 10CR speaker can move more air than any budget 12" speakers and only a handful of very expensive 12" speakers (like our 12XN) are significantly ahead in terms of air moving capability.
I own a Bass, it's a rather lovely looking Squire Jazz in Lake Placid Blue. It's sitting in the corner of my room glowering at me every time I go in because I can't play it.
When I were t'nipper, I got my hands on a lovely USA built Fender Music-Master bass. It had such a punchy sound, it was amazing. I tried playing at the time but was awful and convinced myself that the problem was I was trying to learn on a right-handed guitar. Not that I was a talentless, fat fingered oaf.
Many, many years on, and I bought another guitar (the Squire), but because I originally started on a right-handed guitar and could still plug out a few blues progressions, I stuck with the right handed version. For a while, I had a hoot of a time going to a sound studio with a couple of mates, but when my mates and I had a falling out, the guitar got hung up in a corner of the room, where it now sits, glowering at me.
I've since signed up to the online lessons on Fender's website, but I think I have a problem with the guitar being right handed, which limits my playing ability...not the fact I'm a talentless, fat fingered oaf.
Still, reading the posts on this thread has got me thinking about it again. Really, as long as I can plunk out a 12 bar blues, I'm happy. Yeah, I think I'll tune it up again and have a play!
B.
I'm not forgetting anything, it's not my profession but I'm fully aware of the factors in speaker design and performance.
Our OP was already looking at your high performance drivers and I suggested a 12" by which I meant your 12" if he were going to spend that budget. If he'd been looking at a more budget driver I'd have suggested 2x10 or 1x15. In fact I have if you look at my last post on combos.
Some guitar speakers sound better when pushed hard as the break up adds a bit of grain (Greenbacks are the clssic example of this). I've yet to hear a bass speaker that benefits from being driven very hard, on the contrary, adding a second cab even at moderate volumes gives more of the warm rounded thump I like than driving one cab harder.
"I’m not forgetting anything, it’s not my profession but I’m fully aware of the factors in speaker design and performance.
Our OP was already looking at your high performance drivers and I suggested a 12″ by which I meant your 12″ if he were going to spend that budget. If he’s been looking at a more budget driver I’d have suggested 2×10 or 1×15."
But there's a massive gulf in price between our 10CR and 12XN because the latter driver is a very different design with about twice the power handling and twice the output. Speaking fairly conservatively a 10CR is equivalent to a generic 2x10" in output, a 12XN is equivalent to a generic 4x10". At a rough guess, one One10 with a single 10CR will move more air than a Marshall 212 guitar cab and possibly closer to a Marshall 412. The changes in Xmax are vast, it's not like the 50% difference in area when going from 10" to 12", it's more like 150% or 200% or more!
You can gig with a One10 with a single 10CR in it (not loud rock gigs but still gigs), and anyone playing too loud for one at home is inviting a visit from furious neighbours or the police and also needlessly hastening a hospital visit to get hearing aids fitted.
That's a very hard sell. 😉
To be twice as loud a speaker cone has to displace twice the voulume of air. The cone needs to move twice as far in the same time. It needs a coil capable of accelerating twice as fast and that is a big ask when the constraints of coil and magnet design are considered. There are limits to those two no matter how much money you throw at it.
I have yet to have a visit from the police, I stop before 11pm. I use -20db ear plugs even at home if I'm practicing before a loud venue. If you don't practice close to real conditions the gig won't go well. It's not the same singing with an acoustic guitar as standing in front of Marshall's finest and a drummer with -20dbs plugs in your ears and hardly hearing youself.
The obvious solution is to play before buying but that requires a friendly music shop that doesn't mind you turning up when they're quiet and playing loud. My local shop is good like that. A shop I go to in Berlin has mini studios for customers to try gear in.
"To be twice as loud a speaker cone has to displace twice the voulume of air. The cone needs to move twice as far in the same time. It needs a coil capable of accelerating twice as fast and that is a big ask when the constraints of coil and magnet design are considered. There are limits to those two no matter how much money you throw at it."
This is a perfect example of why a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! 😉
We're talking about low frequency performance - it's only below about 150Hz where excursion starts to rapidly increase. But these same speakers can create output at 5kHz. At 5000Hz the cone is changing direction 100 times as fast as at 50Hz but the voice coil has no problem with that acceleration.
It wasn't meant to be a hard sell at all, it was simply correcting some facts. We have a sign on the factory door which says "Facts not opinions". That's how we roll! 😉
The science is beyond me but my One10 is stupidly big and loud sounding for its size (with a little TC bass amp head). Think you'd be surprised Edukator.
chiefgrooveguru is this you?
So what have you corrrected?
You added complementary info which is all well and good and worded to deamean, belittle and accuse of talking rubbish which I'm not.
But now we're getting insulting how about posting the spec of your 10" driver to back up you claims, it'll probably be printed on the back, if not the reference will do.
As for your commercial approach, you're working hard on not making friends or influencing me. Never assume people are thick, ingnorant and have no experience.
Go try some speakers, OP, you soon find that low bass notes (because that's what we're talking about) sound weak with a single 10" driver, even a good one. If it weren't the case then bassists wouldn't lug two or more of them around.
Edit: that's him, Grum.
I used the Fender play app to learn along with Songsterr app. I’m still terrible but enjoy it.
If you want to play along with an app I can highly recommend Yousician. It made the biggest, fastest difference to my playing that I've ever achieved. It's simple, repetitive and quite addictive. If you sit down and play for 2 hours, that's 2 hours of actual playing, not 90 minutes of surfing Youtube and 30 minutes of playing along to tabs.
"You added complementary info which is all well and good and worded to deamean, belittle and accuse of talking rubbish which I’m not."
Sorry but you are factually incorrect - I'm not trying to demean or belittle. You're not thick or ignorant or inexperienced but in this case you are wrong, that's all. However, I won't get involved in discussions like this on here if people would prefer, for the same reason that I had to mostly stop contributing to bass forums once my company reached a certain (still tiny) size, because all too often this happens:
"The science is beyond me but my One10 is stupidly big and loud sounding for its size (with a little TC bass amp head)"
Glad to hear it! Yes, that's me.
ChiefGrooveGuru - thanks for the explanation, speaker excursion is a new one for me so please continue 🙂
However, I won’t get involved in discussions like this on here if people would prefer
FWIW I'm glad you do although I can see why you might not want to. If I owned a company with a reputation at stake, I wouldn't want to be seen as argumentative - even if you know you are correct. Also FWIW I know that exactly one of the posters in this thread makes highly-regarded bass cabs for a living.
Edukator you're being a little silly. 😘
Glad to hear it! Yes, that’s me.
Nerd! 🙂 Nice one. I have one of your guitar cabs too which is sadly not getting enough use yet.
Dear me, we're into 10-year-old Internet memes now.
because all too often this happens:
And you can't see why? Make claims that defy the laws of physics and people will call you out.
You reckon your 10" driver is closer to a marshall 4X12.
Pie x d
3.142 x 12 x 4 = 150
3.142 x 10 = 31
When you consider the part of the cone taken up by the suspension the difference is greater.
If the Marshall cones are moving through over 5mm (which they do on low notes) the 10" cone has to move through over 25mm for the same volume and move five times as fast. There's a limit to what you can do with one small cone, a coil and a magnet. Which I presume is why your brand offers a range of bass cabs. But you seem very insistent on pushing the smallest.
5 x the number of coils - that would increase the weight and bulk. Reduce the wire thickness - that reduces the power handling
5 x the magnet power - that would be nice not feasible, alnico or higher grade ceramic and more of it add power but again there are limits.
5 x the movement. Cone suspension has its limits.
A bit can be gained on them all, that's the difference between higher end drivers and cheaper ones, but if 5 x were possible everybody would be doing 4 x. And it still need to sound nice.
I'll play some guitar now. 🙂
"If the Marshall cones are moving through over 5mm (which they do on low notes) the 10″ cone has to move through over 25mm for the same volume"
The Xmax on a Marshall speaker is about 3mm. A Marshall is a sealed cab so the speakers have to move all the air themselves, so from a Marshall 3x12" (which I'd say is about equivalent) you have about 0.3 x 530 (Sd) x 3 = 477 cm3 air moving ability. (Sd is cone area).
The Xmax on a 10CR is about 8mm. The One10 is a hybrid resonator cab so the resonant system pressure loads the driver over across almost the whole bass register (~150Hz down to ~40Hz), which approximately halves the driver excursion for a given output and frequency (ported cabs reduce the driver excursion far more, about tenfold, but over a smaller bandwidth). So a One10 has about 0.8 x 350 x 2 = 560 cm3 air moving ability.
I'm not insistent on pushing the smallest cabs, I just like facts to be accurate, inaccuracies to be corrected, and the myths and legends of audio to be slain. When people email me I'll ask as many questions as necessary to recommend the correct product, even if that's over budget for the potential customer so we lose the sale, or if it means we sell a cheaper product and thus make less money on that sale. There is a business reason behind this approach, which is that we're playing the long game (and ethically it makes me happy).
So using manufacturer quoted Xmax your speaker can move 8/3 more than a typical celestion guitar speaker. But the guitar cab has 5/1 more surface area. On you own figures your 10 will be no rival for a 4 X 12.
And yet you try to demostrate your 10 can for a series of reasons that border on bad faith. You've now gone down to a 3 X 12, you've sealed it and halved the excursion your drive needs because frequencies - at least keep the freqency the same and in a typical bass range to make a fair comparison.
This is getting silly to quote Grum.
You're sounding like Brant from On-One.
It might work for some, you'll divide the bass thread into Chiefgrooveguru fanbois or haterz just like Brant did.
When you did your guitar cab hype you should really have compared your cab with something comparable, i.e an open back cab of comparable quality. 90% of the advantages you were claiming for your cab are inherent features of open back cabs. So sloping the baffles may help and good luck to you if people try and are convinced, but make a fair comparison. I was genuinely interested until I started walking around my own cabs and the open ones did just what yours did.
What have I done? 🤦♂️
I like modern stuff and I like the cut of @chiefgrooveguru's jib, so I'm going to look at one of his cabs again.
If it's good enough for Nathan King and Lee Voss
Still not sure about the head though 🤔
Jesus wept.
I guess Sound on Sound are just fanboys too eh.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/barefaced-audio-reformer-112
I can see which way this thread is going. Can we keep it fun please?
What have I done?
That's exactly what I thought when I expressed the view that "I" (i.e. a personal view) wouldn't buy a single 10", because I wouldn't and I still won't. 😉
Incidentally in that vid it states clearly you are only hearing the DI, a mix of DI with the mics, or a mix of room and cab mics. Reviews generally flatter smaller cabs because miced up close small cabs sound great but less so in the room. Using the DI only tells you not a lot in a cab review. A fairer review would have been a room mic with one of them shouting/singing along.
Not Barefaced's fault, Anderton's did the vid. The cab no doubt sounds very good, that review does a bad job of convincing anyone who reads what's on the screen and understands what it means. It's one of the failings of Adertons reviews IMO, you have no idea how loud it is, a db meter in the frame would help a lot, maybe I should suggest it. And do they process it? Junior is a music producer, he can make raw tracks that sound really poor sound wonderful.
It’s one of the failings of Adertons reviews IMO, you have no idea how loud it is, a db meter in the frame would help a lot, maybe I should suggest it.
Peter Honore and Nathan used a db meter when they reviewed the bass amp heads
Man who hasn't used the cab in question knows better than the designer of the cab, many happy users with a lifetime of using other cabs, and several professional reviewers of guitar equipment including esteemed magazines like SoS.
Peak STW.
I really should leave this because it has all the hallmarks of past arguments with a certain kind of opinionated older musician being annoyed that I’m telling they’re wrong but not having the humility to appreciate that despite their seniority they could actually learn something. But what the hell, I don’t have a PR department telling me to shut up so I’ll make one final response and then I’ll keep quiet about amplification (maybe).
This is what I said earlier “At a rough guess, one One10 with a single 10CR will move more air than a Marshall 212 guitar cab and possibly closer to a Marshall 412”
I then put up some sums which showed that a One10 can do more than a hypothetical Marshall 312 in the lows. To which this was said:
“So using manufacturer quoted Xmax your speaker can move 8/3 more than a typical celestion guitar speaker. But the guitar cab has 5/1 more surface area. On you own figures your 10 will be no rival for a 4 X 12.”
Anyone who knows anything about speaker design will know that the enclosure is critical when it comes to low frequency analysis. Any resonant enclosure which utilises the back wave from the speakers in the lows effectively doubles the air-moving ability because the front of the speakers moves air and the resonant system flips the phase of the output from the rear of the speakers and then adds that output. It makes a huge difference. A sealed cab does nothing with the rear output, it goes nowhere.
“And yet you try to demostrate your 10 can for a series of reasons that border on bad faith. You’ve now gone down to a 3 X 12…”
Because as I said earlier, more than a 2x12”, possibly closer to a 4x12”. In other words, about a 3x12”.
“you’ve sealed it”
I’ve sealed the Marshall cab because that’s how they’re built.
“and halved the excursion your drive needs”
Because it has a resonant system that adds the back wave output to the front wave.
“because frequencies – at least keep the freqency the same and in a typical bass range to make a fair comparison.”
I don’t even understand what this means. If we’re talking about moving air then we’re looking at the bottom two octaves of a standard bass guitar, so ~40-160Hz. Above this our limiting factor is sensitivity x thermal power handling but it’s a rare bass rig that doesn’t hit the LF limit before the broadband output limit, so that’s what I’ve addressed.
I only interjected because someone was being told that they needed a 12” speaker for proper bass sound at home, and the thing is, that remains complete and utter rubbish.
Chiefgrooveguru - did you/do you post on Basschat.co.uk?
Edit: this was typed before Cheifgroveguru's last post and isn't a reply to it:
Thing is I've used 4 x 10 + 1 x 15 Fender. The specific bass cabs in the local shop with upmarket specific bass drivers, and a variety of combos. All that tells me you need a lot of amp power and a lot of driver(s) to have a good solid low down bass sound. The Bareface is by all accounts surprisingly good for a 10", but it's still a 10".
What's wrong with expressing an opinion and encouraging someone to listen before buying?
Having "experts" on a forum can be a plus. We have good ones around, you know may who they are, check out the Covid thread for half a dozen. We've also had controversial ones: Brant, iDave... being dismissive of other poeple's expereince, bragging about their credentials and trying to sell us stuff.
I guess I pissed Chiefgoveguru off, he had a sale then I suggested something a bit more expensive (a 12" without specifying a brand but apart from barefaced there aren't many - I most definitely wasn't trying to influence the OP's choice away from Bareface), then we started talking combos, then I started questioning just how loud a 10" can be at low frequencies when the hype started to get past my tolerance level, then the numbers started flying and the hype went up another level.
There are three subjects I could do credentials bragging on (how's your memory?) but I doubt I've mentionned two of them in years even on specific threads, and I've never promoted anything I've had a commercial interest in.